Casters vs Melee

[EinarMal]

It was supposed to be a little absurd.

It's still valid to say that by adding all the extra stuff like magic (or power if I remember right) and healing for all classes it just doesn't feel like D&D. Each class is supposed to have their niche, this "seems" like it takes that away to a certain degree. I hope it plays differently thought.

I also don't like the the removal of the save or die spells. That also seems like an overly drastic change.

I do like some of the things that I've read about 4.0 just not what they are doing with the classes.

One thing I did like as well was the comment of less gear dependency. It was something like, what makes the level 18 fighter a tough guy is the 18 levels of fighter not the gear blah blah...

This game especially is heavily gear/resource dependent which I find less fun. Keeping track of having 25 different potions, scrolls, clickies, so I can make it through a quest is more tedious than fun in my opinion.

I don't think you will see full healing for all classes, they said *some* way of healing themselves to some degree but they will not all be the same.

[Yaga_Nub]

One thing I did like as well was the comment of less gear dependency. It was something like, what makes the level 18 fighter a tough guy is the 18 levels of fighter not the gear blah blah...

This game especially is heavily gear/resource dependent which I find less fun. Keeping track of having 25 different potions, scrolls, clickies, so I can make it through a quest is more tedious than fun in my opinion.

I don't think you will see full healing for all classes, they said *some* way of healing themselves to some degree but they will not all be the same.

Well bringing this back to the topic of this thread but still talking about 4.0, how about the fact that spell-casters won't ever run out of spells? Sure they won't have access to all of them but changing the spells to per day, per hour, per encounter, per round will be a very interesting change in terms of melee versus casters won't it?

[MysticTheurge]

Each class is supposed to have their niche, this "seems" like it takes that away to a certain degree. I hope it plays differently thought.

From everything I've read, classes continue to have their own niches. It just addresses the fact that certain things, something to do during combat, the ability to heal yourself, should be available to everyone.

Well bringing this back to the topic of this thread but still talking about 4.0, how about the fact that spell-casters won't ever run out of spells? Sure they won't have access to all of them but changing the spells to per day, per hour, per encounter, per round will be a very interesting change in terms of melee versus casters won't it?

I think it's brilliant, but mostly because every class with have "powers" they can use per day, per encounter and at will.

That makes it far easier to balance the classes with each other.

For instance, a caster's "at will" powers can clearly be the rough equivalent of a weapon attack and you've got a system where casters can always cast (instead of having to do non-casterly things like shoot a crossbow... I mean really, who because a wizard so they can shoot crossbows) and they're still balanced with everyone else.

Likewise, everyone has their "once a day" big guns to pull out.

[EinarMal]

Well bringing this back to the topic of this thread but still talking about 4.0, how about the fact that spell-casters won't ever run out of spells? Sure they won't have access to all of them but changing the spells to per day, per hour, per encounter, per round will be a very interesting change in terms of melee versus casters won't it?

Yes I think it will help casters very much from level 1-7 or so when they often can't do much, especially in PnP but I guess in DDO as well. So you are never stuck flailing away with your potency staff hehe.

Once casters get to a pretty high level this is pretty much already the case, given the number of encounters between rests in PnP and DDO.

[maddmatt70]

Yes I think it will help casters very much from level 1-7 or so when they often can't do much, especially in PnP but I guess in DDO as well. So you are never stuck flailing away with your potency staff hehe.

Once casters get to a pretty high level this is pretty much already the case, given the number of encounters between rests in PnP and DDO.

I have been thinking about mana issues for a while now. That the casters can have virtually unlimited mana leads to a huge imbalance. The practice of recalling out for mana or buffing at the start of a quest and then recalling for mana should be eliminated especially since capped characters no longer care about xp, but how? One idea would be that every time someone recalls out the loot table on the chests in that quest are lowered for that person, but with the new death penalty changes melee might have to recall just to be functional in the quest as their equipment will be breaking all the time and it is kind of hard to penalize melee for this. Second issue would be finding a way to limit the usage of mana pots either through the economy (the plat farmers have so much control over this that it would be difficult to limit) or to artificially limit the usage of mana pots to say 3 per quest, but that seems less then satisfactory...

The changes to the shrines on normal (making them unlimited) in my opinion is for the casual players out there, but I am not sure this makes the game more appealing to casual players who play primarily melee as casters will totally rule the game for casual players... I mean unlimited mana - unlimited fod, maximized & empowered fire wall. Why would a casual player want to play a melee with that system. The combat system in ddo has been branded about as one of its strength because I think in part as it makes melee more fun. Why make melee so unattractive?

[MysticTheurge]

... but with the new death penalty changes melee might have to recall just to be functional in the quest as their equipment will be breaking all the time and it is kind of hard to penalize melee for this.

Why?

As a cleric, I have enough weapons that I could die hundreds of times and still not actually run out of equipment. It won't be my best equipment, but I'd still have something to use.

If a melee character wants to recall to repair why is that significantly different from a caster recalling for SPs?

[Swordalot]

Why?

As a cleric, I have enough weapons that I could die hundreds of times and still not actually run out of equipment. It won't be my best equipment, but I'd still have something to use.

If a melee character wants to recall to repair why is that significantly different from a caster recalling for SPs?

Er.. because melees could avoid dying and get less equipment damage, but casters have to spend spell points to contribute effectively, increasing the likelihood that a caster will recall? It's different because melees can avoid damage.. and casters can't feasibly avoid spending spell points (though they don't need to *waste* them..)

Not exactly the point Madmatt was trying to make, but.. one nonetheless.

[maddmatt70]

Why?

As a cleric, I have enough weapons that I could die hundreds of times and still not actually run out of equipment. It won't be my best equipment, but I'd still have something to use.

If a melee character wants to recall to repair why is that significantly different from a caster recalling for SPs?

I dont know where to start. One of the restrictions put on casters in 3.5 pnp is they can run out of spells (I will not get into 4.0 or the changes what have you) whereas a melee in effect can keep swinging his sword. Now if a melee's sword breaks down they can pull out another one which will probably be alot less effective then the first one where as a caster can just drink a mana pot, shrine what have you and they are as effective as they were before.... I favor no recalling out mystic theurge - it is detrimental to the game...

The abbot pre-raid I think was actually meant to be a melee oriented quest at least up until the black dragon, but because of the casters unlimited mana (the dungeon entrance is too close to the town) is anything but...

[MysticTheurge]

I dont know where to start. One of the restrictions put on casters in 3.5 pnp is they can run out of spells (I will not get into 4.0 or the changes what have you) whereas a melee in effect can keep swinging his sword.

Well, technically speaking, D&D has item damage, it's just most people don't deal with it except in the most extreme cases (i.e. Rust Monsters).

Moreover, in most cases, when someone dies you have to just flat-out stop things for a while (at least 1 hour thanks to the casting time on Raise Dead), usually overnight so the cleric can memorize the spell (or even longer if you have to take your corpse to someone who can actually cast it). So I guess what I'm getting at is, death isn't supposed to be easy, and if you're going to punish people for running out of spell points and choosing to go get more in town, you should also punish them, equally, for dying so many times their equipment breaks and then choosing to go repair it in town.

[maddmatt70]

hmm dont need/want to make this a death penalty discussion - just making the point that spell casters can currently recall out unlimited times for mana and in many quests it is too easy to do and furthermore they do so.. This is not the way the developers intended the game to go that is for certain and it certainly fosters imbalances in the game for casters in comparison to melee...

[issiana]

Why would a casual player want to play a melee with that system. The combat system in ddo has been branded about as one of its strength because I think in part as it makes melee more fun. Why make melee so unattractive?

simple...


A casual player (i'd put myself partly in this category) wil lplay what they like because its FUN! we dont care about uber builds, or number of kills or xp per min or uber loot. sure, we like our xp, loot and to lkill things, but the number one factor in what we play and how we play is FUN. Itss till fun to play rogues, i love my rogue, its still fun to be a sword'n'boarder, its still fun to be a raging mad barbarian and its still fun being a squishy caster. heck i still make 6 con elven wizards from time to time for FUN!

having reuseable shrines means never needing heal from clerics ever, as you use the shrine over and over and over until you get full hitpoints again. so.. Why play a squishy caster when that barb can rage endlessly now and still get full hitpoints from a rest?

Dont focus on one side. the whole point of my thread was to MAKE US ALL LOOK AT BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE and focus on having FUN WITH EACH OTHER

[Taojeff]

From everything I've read, classes continue to have their own niches. It just addresses the fact that certain things, something to do during combat, the ability to heal yourself, should be available to everyone.




I think it's brilliant, but mostly because every class with have "powers" they can use per day, per encounter and at will.

That makes it far easier to balance the classes with each other.

For instance, a caster's "at will" powers can clearly be the rough equivalent of a weapon attack and you've got a system where casters can always cast (instead of having to do non-casterly things like shoot a crossbow... I mean really, who because a wizard so they can shoot crossbows) and they're still balanced with everyone else.

Likewise, everyone has their "once a day" big guns to pull out.

I agree with Mystic here, this will go a long way to balancing the fun for all. Giving all classes powers will a) give em something to do b) take some of the reliance away from spell casters spell selection. It is also nice that casters have something to do after they get rid of their spells. I am guessing some form of bolt or imbue weapon that they can do unlimited times.

BTW. this is really what most major mmo's do..... 4.0 takes a lot of stuff away from other games including mmos.

[Taojeff]

simple...


A casual player (i'd put myself partly in this category) wil lplay what they like because its FUN! we dont care about uber builds, or number of kills or xp per min or uber loot. sure, we like our xp, loot and to lkill things, but the number one factor in what we play and how we play is FUN. Itss till fun to play rogues, i love my rogue, its still fun to be a sword'n'boarder, its still fun to be a raging mad barbarian and its still fun being a squishy caster. heck i still make 6 con elven wizards from time to time for FUN!

having reuseable shrines means never needing heal from clerics ever, as you use the shrine over and over and over until you get full hitpoints again. so.. Why play a squishy caster when that barb can rage endlessly now and still get full hitpoints from a rest?

Dont focus on one side. the whole point of my thread was to MAKE US ALL LOOK AT BOTH SIDES OF THE DEBATE and focus on having FUN WITH EACH OTHER

The problem with reusable shrines and unlimited resources is this...they make stuff way to easy. Then it is over way to quick....leading people to say. "Hey there is not enough content, lets go play another game."

I think some of the main reasons people complain about there not being enough content is:

1. Way to easy to get to level cap (can be done in several days, (takes me a week usually)).
2. We are overpowered, making the quests to easy.
3. Stuff is not randomized. Not sure if this will ever happen, I think its a limitation of the engine.
4. Death is meaningless or close to it.
5. No point in doing many quests.

[issiana]

oh i agree, i dont like the reuseable shrine idea, i'm not even to sure i like the current reuseable res shrines, although that does help out the clerics a lot as they know dont have to endlessy raise ppl.

However, I've being in a few MMo's now and many where a blast, some ratehr complex but really good ones. The trouble is as time goes on and the nubers dwindle the devs tend to give into the group that wants the "I win" button. As a result most games tend to get "dumbed" down over time making them easier in the hope of attracting new players.

I dont think that works as the current ones just leave.

[Emili]

You can generally get a feel of the popularity of a class by sampling from time to time... while not very scientific it does tend to show which characters players deem as being fun in a general sense ... Just did a spot check on the who's page - 5:18pm Saturday on Khyber.

Character counts in the 11-14 range:
Wizards - 24
Sorcerers - 39
Rogues - 13
Paladins - 9
Fighters - 24
Clerics - 21
Bards - 11
Barbarians - 17

[Shade]

The only thing i consider overpowered on casters vs melee is how easy it is to get the most powerful gear on a caster vs a melee.

I mean at this point, I consider my barbarian just as powerful and often better then my sorcerer, but it took him over a year to aquire all the powerful gear he needs to keep up.

Vs my sorcerer who took maybe a month to get everything he needed.

I mean basicly right now the maximum possible best item for a caster is a Superior Potentcy VI scepter - every good caster has one or more of these, there not that hard to get. 2ndary best item would be a superior combustion VII scepter - of which youd be lucky to get 10kpp on the auction house for.. Combine that with a superior lore item (also very cheap and common) and your set for maximum DPS.

Vs melee, best possible DPS is quite an incredibly difficult job to achieve, you need all these items:
+5 Greater bane greataxe of every type - that you can use. (I have never seen a single useful +5 greater bane greataxe ever, let alone aquire one)
+6 Strength item (Easy enough to get, but the best one - titan belt is quite difficult to aquire)
+3 Strength tome (took me over 50 reaver runs and over 1million plat worth of gear to buy it)
Littany of the dead (straight impossible to get at the moment, I know only 1 other person on my server who has one on a melee)
Madstone Boots (much easier to get these days then before, but took me about 20 reavers to get these)
Scourge Choker (one of the rarest/most expensive items in the game for random tradeable named loot)
Mentaus Googles or Bloodstone (ultra rare drops and very expensive and difficult to trade for)
Steady handed armbands (Not to expensive to buy, but still a rare named drop)
100 Rage potions (about 8k plat every few quests)

[Bunzy]

If your refering to casters, well very little in the realm of limits. The reasons being.

1. They have to much mana.
2. Meta-magics are too cheap.
3. Mana potions are readily available.
4. You can leave and re-enter a quest (which i my opinion should make you automatically fail the quest).
5. There are too many rest shrines (I also think everytime you rest, the dungeon should respawn monsters).

I don't think casters have no limits. Do you know how many times I've run out of either mana, spell componenents or even wands after running out of the first two during a quest? Alot. Sure, my computer's a little slow and on more than a few occassions I cast a spell when the monster(s) was/were already dead but still. Mana potions are REALLY expensive to be 'readily available'. There's no way my caster could afford to buy these often. They may have lots (even too much) mana if they're a sorcerer, but wizards have a limited supply of mana. With all these nerfs people want we'll end up with one server, with only three classes: (ie, Fighter -- Can only fight melee; Caster -- Can cast ten spells per day; Cleric -- Can heal 20 times per day) Is that what we want? I don't think so. (Sorry if i was a little too outspoken)

[GlassCannon]

Dang. That is good stuff. Very well put!

I think casters should be brought in-line a little more with PnP rules. That is, casters should be limited to each level spell per rest instead of using the mana bar exclusively for level 5 and or 6th spells.

It will be said over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again: this will cause many casual gamers to leave.

[GlassCannon]

If your refering to casters, well very little in the realm of limits. The reasons being.

1. They have to much mana.
2. Meta-magics are too cheap.
3. Mana potions are readily available.
4. You can leave and re-enter a quest (which i my opinion should make you automatically fail the quest).
5. There are too many rest shrines (I also think everytime you rest, the dungeon should respawn monsters).

1. Wrong.
2. Wrong. The price was reduced to stop killing the effectiveness of casters. Tanks are still more powerful overall.
3. SO VERY WRONG. These are as rare as a +6 stat item.(unless you CHEAT and buy them off the AH after CHEATERS have DUPLICATED the items.)
4. Yes, but getting back into certain quests without dying in a timely manner is nigh impossible. Thus, more or less inaccurate.
5. There are exactly enough in some quests, not enough in others, and too many in quests like Tempest's Spine. This is a very inaccurate statement.

in essence, you were trolling. Have a troll.


Next time please sit and think about what you have to say before you say it.

[Hvymetal]

Actually you are off on the mnemonic potion part there glass, I can get one as an end reward at least 2/3 of the time as an end reward on a caster provided I have checked the end rewards based upon class selection and I have yet to see any +6 stat item show up on my end rewrds list nearly as often....