Casters vs Melee

[bellack]

Er.

There's no core rule anywhere that has anything about a natural 1 being anything other than an automatic miss.

There's an optional rule, somewhere, yes, but I can't find it at the moment.

GMs who want to punish their players for a 0.25% roll against them are just looking for ways to punish players via mechanics rather than via story.

It is an optional rule. And as I had mention in a previous post we take the rule and run with it. Mechanics and story are both equally important. They go hand in hand at least for the groups I played with they have. If you just run solely on story then you take the challenge (and fun) out of the game you might as well go read a book. I don’t know about you but when I play a game I want it to be challenging and D&D if played right can be. But the way to achieve this is to use the mechanics. It needs to be unpredictable (this is where the dice rolling comes in) in order to be fun. When you take that hit or you character dies this is not the DM (punishing) you. It is the character losing the round (or game if he dies.) One of my pet peeves is when a DM fudges the dice. One of the rules that my group has about DMing is that dies are NEVER to be fudged. The reason for this is because it is a game and as with life random chance does happen. Also for all you that cry (The Story will suffer if you don’t fudge the dice from time to time) In my 25-year of playing (Pen and Paper RPG games) I have never encountered a story being ‘ruined’ because of the role of the dice. The DM’s may have to adjust the story on the fly sometimes but that is the fun and challenge of Dming. And a player may loose his character but so what, roll a new one.

[Taojeff]

I think the whole idea of making spells affect the party is silly. Making great-swords hack up the party is just as silly.

The point of playing video games is to have a fast paced action and PnP D&D is not about that at all. PnP D&D is about an interactive story and taking the story where you want to go. The "rules" have always been guidelines. It's an option to add extreme levels of realism and the group decides how the game is played. If you want fast action on your PnP game then you sacrifice some realism to keep the game rolling. You can play PnP like a hack and slash or like a story where combat is rare. We don't have those options in a video game. Stuff is trying to kill you and you better act fast and not be concerned with realism.

DDO is a video game period. It's about fast paced fun. It's real time combat and you don't get to move your little guy or girl into just the right spot for the sneak attack. In this game you get in there and do something NOW or you don't get to hack on something or blow something up. DDO is fast not slow like PnP. We're not taking turns and it's a free for all who gets to hack up stuff.

If a party wants to take turns getting kills then they can let each person go in first and get their kill and then next guy gets the next room. Use some imagination if you want some flavor in the game. Cripes, this is a game for crying out loud not a substitute for PnP.

If you want PnP go play PnP. If you want a video game with some action and treasure play DDO. DON'T GET THIS STUFF CONFUSED!!!!!!!!!

Actually, I think most D&D games make spell AOE effect the party, NWN and NWN2 both of which are more popular then DDO, use that system.

[Taojeff]

So it stops being thrilling just because you don't get the kill?

What if the caster used banishment instead of FoD? Would that make it thrilling still? Or what if a ranger with a banishing bow banished the elemental? Is that the easy button and does it make it less thrilling for you?

There is a reason why Save or Die stuff is gone from 4.0. And yes, vorpals and banishers do take a lot of the fun out of it. Why have a thrilling action combat engine then take away the action with insta-deaths

[EinarMal]

Actually, I think most D&D games make spell AOE effect the party, NWN and NWN2 both of which are more popular then DDO, use that system.

Actually one the default difficulty spells do not affect the party, that is an option though if you make the difficulty harder.

[Taojeff]

Actually one the default difficulty spells do not affect the party, that is an option though if you make the difficulty harder.

yep your right, forgot, I always have it set to hardcore...which is closer to PnP. Wish we could have a hardcore server here, then all of traditionalist could be happy why all the power mad people could play on the other servers.

[Yaga_Nub]

Actually, I think most D&D games make spell AOE effect the party, NWN and NWN2 both of which are more popular then DDO, use that system.

But there hasn't been a D&D MMO. Every other D&D computer game was turn based and didn't have party member controlled by someone that you can't see or talk to. I know that NWN2 has some internet play but it's still turn based isn't it?

In a turn based system, one person can declare what they are going to do before they do it and their teammates can react before the action happens. You can't do that in DDO or rather you can but the mob isn't going to stand in one place and wait for you to cast that fireball while your groups runs away from the impact area like they might in a D&D encounter.

[EinarMal]

But there hasn't been a D&D MMO. Every other D&D computer game was turn based and didn't have party member controlled by someone that you can't see or talk to. I know that NWN2 has some internet play but it's still turn based isn't it?

Not exacly turn based or really "click based diablo style" like DDO either. More in between I guess, sort of like a "typical" MMO with auto attack. You can pause the game and issue orders (since you have mutliple party members) but on a online server you cannot obviously pause the game. It is quite different though in terms of action packed, the combat IMO is pretty boring in NWN compared to DDO.

[Taojeff]

But there hasn't been a D&D MMO. Every other D&D computer game was turn based and didn't have party member controlled by someone that you can't see or talk to. I know that NWN2 has some internet play but it's still turn based isn't it?

In a turn based system, one person can declare what they are going to do before they do it and their teammates can react before the action happens. You can't do that in DDO or rather you can but the mob isn't going to stand in one place and wait for you to cast that fireball while your groups runs away from the impact area like they might in a D&D encounter.

Does not mean that you could not stick closer to the rules and still make a good mmo. Well hopefully someone will make a 4.0 game..

[Aspenor]

Does not mean that you could not stick closer to the rules and still make a good mmo. Well hopefully someone will make a 4.0 game..

??????

You do know that the 4.0 ruleset was designed for the digital tabletop planned for release this year or so, right???

Not an MMO, a digital tabletop game.

[EinarMal]

??????

You do know that the 4.0 ruleset was designed for the digital tabletop planned for release this year or so, right???

Not an MMO, a digital tabletop game.

It is still very likely they will license computer games using the 4.0 rules, in fact they are in theory more "video game friendly" given they have a lot in common with MMO's.

I would bet that there will be a 4.0 MMO of some sort, WOTC follows the money and the money is in online video games not a table top game (even an online version). I have no interest in just watching dice roll and moving figures around on squares, I would much rather play an actual video game based on 4.0 rules than that.

[Aspenor]

It is still very likely they will license computer games using the 4.0 rules, in fact they are in theory more "video game friendly" given they have a lot in common with MMO's.

I would bet that there will be a 4.0 MMO of some sort, WOTC follows the money and the money is in online video games not a table top game (even an online version). I have no interest in just watching dice roll and moving figures around on squares, I would much rather play an actual video game based on 4.0 rules than that.

I think you'd be extremely surprised. I have a friend that has seen the framework of the digital tabletop, and it sounds like it could be a decent money-maker. Honestly, many PnP players left DDO long ago due to the divergence from the ruleset as the game was translated into a real-time MMO. Many of those types of players will be apt to stick around and play the digital tabletop because that's what they were looking for in DDO.

But I agree totally that there will probably be a game or two released using the 4.0 ruleset in the near future. I agree that 4.0 is more geared toward video gaming than previous versions.

My point was that there's technically already a game in development Even if it's just the digital tabletop....

[EinarMal]

My point was that there's technically already a game in development Even if it's just the digital tabletop....

Yeah I might try it, I haven't really played true table top in so long it probably won't appeal to me, raised on nintendo unfortunately....I like the playing part of the game along with the rules!

[bellack]

Well first off you obviously didn't leave or you wouldn't be posting here.

Second, how can you tell if the representation of Eberron (???) is poorly executed if you haven't played in the Eberron world?

1) Actully I did leave. I beta tested the game and played for the first month and a half then stopped playing. Several friends and I decided a couple of months ago to try the game again to see if it had improved any. We had tried Vanguard and LOTR online and were disapointed with both games. So we thought we would give DDO a try until Conan Online came out. the game had improved a lot since the begining days but there are still problems.

2) I have talked to a lot of PnP Eberron players both while grouping with Pugs and guildies in DDO and to players outside DDO who have played DDO at one time or another.

[Yaga_Nub]

Yeah I might try it, I haven't really played true table top in so long it probably won't appeal to me, raised on nintendo unfortunately....I like the playing part of the game along with the rules!

IF you haven't played the table top in a long time, why worry about what rules you are using?

Do you mean that you like the 30 years of thought that went into the D&D rules and you think they work so you'd like to play a game that sticks to them?

Or you just got bored with the game and started playing Nintendo? If you got bored with D&D before why think that it being made into a video game would make it less boring?

I'm picking on you but this is meant for everyone that says things have to be changed in DDO.

If you just like the name Dungeons and Dragons then it's great that you're here. But if you want the ruleset then you have to live with 3.5 (for now) and realize that Turbine couldn't make everything fit the rules exactly because of the realtime nature of the game.

I for one would rather then fix all the bugs in the game before worrying about class balance or switching to the 4.0 ruleset. Maybe it would be best to have DDO v2 and have fresh code to go along with it but for now that hasn't been announced by any company so don't hold your breath.

[EinarMal]

IF you haven't played the table top in a long time, why worry about what rules you are using?

Do you mean that you like the 30 years of thought that went into the D&D rules and you think they work so you'd like to play a game that sticks to them?

Or you just got bored with the game and started playing Nintendo? If you got bored with D&D before why think that it being made into a video game would make it less boring?

I'm picking on you but this is meant for everyone that says things have to be changed in DDO.

If you just like the name Dungeons and Dragons then it's great that you're here. But if you want the ruleset then you have to live with 3.5 (for now) and realize that Turbine couldn't make everything fit the rules exactly because of the realtime nature of the game.

I for one would rather then fix all the bugs in the game before worrying about class balance or switching to the 4.0 ruleset. Maybe it would be best to have DDO v2 and have fresh code to go along with it but for now that hasn't been announced by any company so don't hold your breath.

Yes I like D&D rules, and I like video games. I perfer not to sit around and roll dice but prefer computerized versions where I can also "move" and play err like a video game. I still buy the rule books, like 3.5, as I use them as a reference for RPG games based on them, like DDO, NWN 2 etc...

I guess I disagree how much Turbine modified the game for real time, and how much they did for the hell of it (enhancements, crazy powerful items, caster crtiticals, etc... on and on, stacking meta-magics to epic spell levels, mana pots lol....)

[Puke]

I do not feel a caster is really weak in any way, considering the the idea is not going toe-to-toe... you can build them with enough HP and AC to get the job done, Consider this... on a wizard, Dex 22, Con 18 to 20, Int 32+, meta-magics of max, emp, heighten and extend, added feats greater spell penetration, Improved mental now add on , heavy fort item, Greater false life, Now top with spells, Greater Heroism, resists, Blur, Displacement, Stoneskin... even before adding an item with toughness on it the base HP after favor is what 164 to 186 then +14 from GH = 178 to 200hp then DR10 for 140hp and even topping with a 30AC + displacement and blur think about it that's really equivalent to a unbuffed 50ac tank as far as chance of getting hit... and when it is hit you're speaking of the equal of up to 340 hp it's carrying around. The goal tatctic however is they never need to go toe-to-toe they toss out CC via dancing sphere, hold monster, etc... then pick off the mobs. Toss on enlarge and the mob never need be agro'd. Mind you it's a game of management, watching your sp and hp pool, do you need melee... grab some from a safe distance - mass charm is enough to keep the mob busy within itself. A caster played intelligently is a character who's versitility is it's power. The other night someone got upset with me because I knocked the bloody gate in TBF even... I did not know he had 2 lvls of rogue.

Not a complete list but certainly a base:
GoP - fw, chill touch, disintigrate
Inferno - fear, dancing sphere, Disintigrate, Cone of cold
FLesh makers - mass charm, Fire wall, Disintigrate, enervation, pk or fod
Near any Giant Hold - mass charms, dancing sphere, Fire wall, PK, Enervation, fod

The real issue here is that on an average... players are less considerate of those they play with. The Dwaven Pally chasing down the caster only to have it FOD'd as he takes his first swing is going to get frustrated. The Intimidating tank who's presses his intimidate button is going to get frustrated when the mob coming to him gets charmed before reaching him... The Barbarian in the doorway will get upset when you tell him stop swinging the mobs in the fw and you hurry the mob along to it's demise with a single fireball.

DnD does not require any class... however some classes are better suited and well rounded to perform certain actions. The casting classes can and do aquire a way to 'do near it all'. As players we must change our playing styles so everyone feels like they're bringing something of value to a group, either that or the game needs to be balanced into forcing us to do so.

Last night I helped run favor for a group of guildies in house K ... opening vons elite for them. I brought my old favor runner Emilee (fighter 14 favor capped, thought the rest not far behind). My dear friend Wizgoddess said to me when we were thru - "Emilee was a killer build back in mod 3. Sgail (my wizard) is the bomb now right?"

Dang. That is good stuff. Very well put!

I think casters should be brought in-line a little more with PnP rules. That is, casters should be limited to each level spell per rest instead of using the mana bar exclusively for level 5 and or 6th spells.

[bellack]

It is still very likely they will license computer games using the 4.0 rules, in fact they are in theory more "video game friendly" given they have a lot in common with MMO's.

I would bet that there will be a 4.0 MMO of some sort, WOTC follows the money and the money is in online video games not a table top game (even an online version). I have no interest in just watching dice roll and moving figures around on squares, I would much rather play an actual video game based on 4.0 rules than that.

I on the other hand would like to see the table top game escpically if it allows us to use it as an electronic battlematt. I have alway like turned based combat and this table top game is the only thing I'm looking forward to about the 4.0 rules.
I would also like to see a sctul video game closely based on the 3.5 rules.

[Kerr]

Um... every time?

D&D doesn't work like that.

Unless it's a ranged attack and you don't take the penalty to hit to avoid hitting party members.

[MysticTheurge]

Don't talk about 4.0. That edition is going to be the ruination of D&D. Any who likes what is going on with 4.0 doesn't understand D&D and probably thinks that every people in the world should be paid the same salary, live in th exact same style of house, drive the exact same type of vehicle, and scores shouldn't be keep in games so that there is no loser just to keep them from feeling bad.

This is absurd.

I like what's going on with 4th edition and I think the rest of your paragraph is a nice fat straw man.

You do know that the 4.0 ruleset was designed for the digital tabletop planned for release this year or so, right???

This statement is reversed. There is a digital tabletop being designed for the 4th edition rules. The 4th edition rules were not designed for the digital tabletop.

Moreover, there already are digital tabletop programs, and that's never stopped them from releasing other D&D games in various formats.

Unless it's a ranged attack and you don't take the penalty to hit to avoid hitting party members.

Even then, if you miss your target, you can't hit your allies.

[Yaga_Nub]

This is absurd.

I like what's going on with 4th edition and I think the rest of your paragraph is a nice fat straw man.

It was supposed to be a little absurd.

It's still valid to say that by adding all the extra stuff like magic (or power if I remember right) and healing for all classes it just doesn't feel like D&D. Each class is supposed to have their niche, this "seems" like it takes that away to a certain degree. I hope it plays differently thought.

I also don't like the the removal of the save or die spells. That also seems like an overly drastic change.

I do like some of the things that I've read about 4.0 just not what they are doing with the classes.