Casters vs Melee

[issiana]

well now that i have your attention, hehe let me share a little observation i noticed last night while questing.

First the back ground..

There seems to be a lot of comments along the lines of casters AOE spells should be made to effect party memebers, to make it in line with PnP rules etc...

ok.. i can see that, BUT....

1/ When was the last time you where in a PnP dungeon quest and the GM let you swing that very large greatsword inside that 3foot wide tunnel?

2/ When was the last time in a PnP quest that you all stood FACING one enemy (ie you all have him boxed in) and the GM let you all swing at him with those large greatswords WITHOUT CAUSING EACH OFF YOU TO GET HIT BY EACH OTHERS SWORDS!

3/ When was the last time in a PnP quest when the GM let you all stand on top of each other and attack with your swords all at the same time using all your special moves in very tight spaces without any of you taking damae from each others attacks?

Now these where just observations i noted that suddenly jumped out at me as i was playing my melee rogue, and yeah we all stand on top of each other swinging madly at creatures with our swords. If you want damage from casters spells to effect party members then we MUST HAVE the corresponding balance of melees causing damage as well, then add in the weapon restrictions based on dungeon size etc..

Do you tanks really want that? do you want to be forced to use daggers in small areas? do you want to lose your melee specials as well due to space restrictions?

sure it'd fanatastic to have this level of game play in the game and i do like the idea.. BUT... in a MMO i cant see how it would ever work out.
How many of you would get so utterly frustrated and quite that when ever you go to attack you get a message "unable to attack with that weapon in this place, choose a smaller weapon"
or then theres the "wheres the healer? i'm getting wasted here" only to hear back, sorry none of us is joining you while you swing that greatsword around in that confinded space, you'll kill us as well!

You call for nerfs to casters, but many of us casters play melees as well, if we call for nerfs to melees well many of us melees play casters also.
you get the point?
By nerfing one class you only hurting YOURSELF as at some time you might want to play the class your calling to get nerfed.

Lets play this game as it is. A TEAM game requiring TEAM players to play in a TEAM utilizing each others strenghts to cover each others weaknesses.

Now thats real D&D there. a TEAM game!

[MysticTheurge]

2/ When was the last time in a PnP quest that you all stood FACING one enemy (ie you all have him boxed in) and the GM let you all swing at him with those large greatswords WITHOUT CAUSING EACH OFF YOU TO GET HIT BY EACH OTHERS SWORDS!

Um... every time?

D&D doesn't work like that.

[Emili]

Um... every time?

D&D doesn't work like that.

I was thinking the same thing...

Anyway, for the OP, I really do not think people are calling for a caster nerf... I really think they're calling for making all classes a viable one in an MMO environment.

[issiana]

okies its being a while since i PnP'd but back when i did, we where never allowed to fight like we do in DDO without causing damage to each other by our GM. maybe that was just his way of looking at the rules, but hey, its always being that way to me as it makes perfect sense.

my point is that ALL classes are viable atm. all we need to do is play as a team and stop trying to be better than each other. we need to stop thinking xxx class can solo xxx quest so its the uber and xx class cant do jack so its useless.

casters are powerful but have limits,
melee are powerful but have limits,
rangers are powerful but have limits,
clerics are powerful but have limits,
Rogues are powerful but have limits,
Bards are powerful but have limits

my point is work together and have fun.
who cares who killed xxx bad guy with xxx item. at the end the quest was completed and all had fun.. right??

[smatt]

casters are powerful but have limits,

Hmm, not really no they have almost no limit, except when they have to actually spend 2-3 minutes running and getting mana. Man this caster is over-powered discussion just goes on and on. IMO they are way over-powered as comparted to every other class in the game. BUT, I've not seen one GOOD solution to such a problem, other than the Devs hopefully using quest/mob design to bring casters along with thier extremely self-important attitudes back down into the realm of the living Anythign that could possibly be done, or that has been thrown out there to limit the kill everything all th etime type casters either has to do with PEOPLE (as in players) who play casters give a **** about others and the fact that other people who like to play other classes MIGHT like to have fun as well. Which the devs have no control over... Or, it would simply cause so much damage to teh caster classes, as to nerf the non-level caps to the point where they wouldn't be having fun either. In any case, I don't see anything happening anyway..... I just hope the Devs recognize the obvious and adjust quests/mobs. The Devs have seen fit to create a situation,w here the only classes able to EFFICIANTLY, and resonably EASILY solo inthe game at high level are the casters classes. This seems to only be gettingorse with thenleashing of the mobs in the desert/Orchard/Vale areas. That would completely destroy the ability of any but the casters from doing anything significant without having that caster around to AOE everything in site. Now now, I have nothing against the csters classes at all. In fact I count on them just like everybody does, BUT the problem is, they DON'T have to count on others at this point for the most part. THAT is the problem And it's also not ALL casters, BUT it has become far more prevalent as of late that's for sure. Happy New Year to all

[Tanka]

In a room that only has a three foot width and (say) a seven foot height (I'm 6'4", for reference), I can swing a five-and-a-half foot greatsword with no problems. It takes more concentration to do so, yes.

In PnP, fighters (including barbs, pallies, and whoever else wants to use a greatsword) are specifically trained to fight under many constrictions. Close quarters being one of them.

Hitting your friend might be a fumble. However, if I rolled well and hit my target, I shouldn't be hitting my friend next to me.

[Hvymetal]

I dunno I use rapiers mainly so yea fighting in a 3' hallway not an issue for me Actually many melee weapons have secondary attack modes, so if you wanna call on a nerf to greatswords & greataxes be my guest

[MTG]

Kind of off topic a little but i wanted to throw it out there think about the fireball in the tunnel it will fill the full 60ft, but now it traped in 8ft h X 5ft w, that fills alote of area.

[issiana]

I dunno I use rapiers mainly so yea fighting in a 3' hallway not an issue for me Actually many melee weapons have secondary attack modes, so if you wanna call on a nerf to greatswords & greataxes be my guest

hehe no i'm not calling for a nerf on greatswords etc..

All i'm seeking to do is put an end to the endless calls for nerfs to each others abilities by showing the "other" side of the coin. now i seem to be on my own in the sillyness of standing together as a group and swinging swords without hurting each other, but meh.. i guess its the way we all interpret the rules.

I play both casters and melees and i think its all just fine. stop trying to prove yourself the uberest and focus on a fun team time game event

[BlueLightBandit]

Um... every time?

D&D doesn't work like that.

I think he meant "boxing in" the mob... standing on four sides of it, preventing it from moving out of melee range... which I very rarely remember happening in a pen and paper game.

Then again... this is DDO, not D&D. Any discussion regarding DDO should remain D&D free if it is to be relevant.

[BlueLightBandit]

Hmm, not really no they have almost no limit,

The point of the post you were referring to was simply to point out that EVERY class has limits.

And they do.

[MysticTheurge]

Then again... this is DDO, not D&D. Any discussion regarding DDO should remain D&D free if it is to be relevant.

That's absurd.

DDO is D&D Online. Any discussion of DDO must take D&D into consideration in order to be relevant.

[bellack]

well now that i have your attention, hehe let me share a little observation i noticed last night while questing.

First the back ground..

There seems to be a lot of comments along the lines of casters AOE spells should be made to effect party memebers, to make it in line with PnP rules etc...

ok.. i can see that, BUT....

1/ When was the last time you where in a PnP dungeon quest and the GM let you swing that very large greatsword inside that 3foot wide tunnel?

2/ When was the last time in a PnP quest that you all stood FACING one enemy (ie you all have him boxed in) and the GM let you all swing at him with those large greatswords WITHOUT CAUSING EACH OFF YOU TO GET HIT BY EACH OTHERS SWORDS!

3/ When was the last time in a PnP quest when the GM let you all stand on top of each other and attack with your swords all at the same time using all your special moves in very tight spaces without any of you taking damae from each others attacks?

Now these where just observations i noted that suddenly jumped out at me as i was playing my melee rogue, and yeah we all stand on top of each other swinging madly at creatures with our swords. If you want damage from casters spells to effect party members then we MUST HAVE the corresponding balance of melees causing damage as well, then add in the weapon restrictions based on dungeon size etc..

Do you tanks really want that? do you want to be forced to use daggers in small areas? do you want to lose your melee specials as well due to space restrictions?

sure it'd fanatastic to have this level of game play in the game and i do like the idea.. BUT... in a MMO i cant see how it would ever work out.
How many of you would get so utterly frustrated and quite that when ever you go to attack you get a message "unable to attack with that weapon in this place, choose a smaller weapon"
or then theres the "wheres the healer? i'm getting wasted here" only to hear back, sorry none of us is joining you while you swing that greatsword around in that confinded space, you'll kill us as well!

You call for nerfs to casters, but many of us casters play melees as well, if we call for nerfs to melees well many of us melees play casters also.
you get the point?
By nerfing one class you only hurting YOURSELF as at some time you might want to play the class your calling to get nerfed.

Lets play this game as it is. A TEAM game requiring TEAM players to play in a TEAM utilizing each others strenghts to cover each others weaknesses.

Now thats real D&D there. a TEAM game!

I would be all for this. And I would also like colluision between players as well. No one should be able to walk through each other or occupy the same space.

[Taojeff]

That's absurd.

DDO is D&D Online. Any discussion of DDO must take D&D into consideration in order to be relevant.

Oh and sooooooo losely based, I think no other game in the history of computer games has so bent the rules the way DDO has, probably the reason why PnP fans left in droves shortly after the release years ago.

[Taojeff]

I would be all for this. And I would also like colluision between players as well. No one should be able to walk through each other or occupy the same space.

I gotta agree. I think they should include AOE, Weapon damage, etc friendly fire in general on hard or definitely elite. I have teamed with people in the brawling area before. You can make it work.

[Taojeff]

The point of the post you were referring to was simply to point out that EVERY class has limits.

And they do.

If your refering to casters, well very little in the realm of limits. The reasons being.

1. They have to much mana.
2. Meta-magics are too cheap.
3. Mana potions are readily available.
4. You can leave and re-enter a quest (which i my opinion should make you automatically fail the quest).
5. There are too many rest shrines (I also think everytime you rest, the dungeon should respawn monsters).

[Raithe]

Oh and sooooooo losely based, I think no other game in the history of computer games has so bent the rules the way DDO has, probably the reason why PnP fans left in droves shortly after the release years ago.

Yes, a few hardcore rules lawyers probably left the game shortly after launch. Most D&D fans, I'm sure, left because of the lack of D&D feel. No roleplaying. Repeating quests. No player generated stories. A focus on getting "loot."

Most of us D&D fans kind of go with the flow when it comes to rules. DDO is actually doing ok in that regard, it's just everything else that's out of whack.

[Taojeff]

Yes, a few hardcore rules lawyers probably left the game shortly after launch. Most D&D fans, I'm sure, left because of the lack of D&D feel. No roleplaying. Repeating quests. No player generated stories. A focus on getting "loot."

Most of us D&D fans kind of go with the flow when it comes to rules. DDO is actually doing ok in that regard, it's just everything else that's out of whack.

I think its equal measures of all.

[Aranticus]

i remember this....

DM: roll to attack
Me: *rolls 1*
DM: roll another d20
Me: *rolls 20*
DM: grats! you missed critically on an attack with your vorpal. Dominic is decapitated by you.
Me: omgz! *gasps*

(Dominic was the party's cleric)

[Beherit_Baphomar]

who cares who killed xxx bad guy with xxx item. at the end the quest was completed and all had fun.. right??

Wrong.

Its not about that. Its about having a character thats viable in all the quests. Its about having a character that can go
into Ghosts of Perdition and DO something. Its about having a character that I enjoy playing and dont want to
see standing at a freakin wall while everything is PK'd.

Casters and clerics own MOD 5, fighters/barbs/rangers/paladins(Ha!)/rogues all second class citizens of Stormreach. Brought along
cause the casters need something pulled, or picked.

I understand casters should be god-like at higher levels, does that mean we need to make AC pointless? And AC is pointless
in the Necro against all the ghosts. Do melee really need to have a huge slowdown on their swings per second?? I mean really?

Do you honestly like the fact that in some quests little to no melee is used? I dont. I thought this was about party balance.