Casters vs Melee

[issiana]

well now that i have your attention, hehe let me share a little observation i noticed last night while questing.

First the back ground..

There seems to be a lot of comments along the lines of casters AOE spells should be made to effect party memebers, to make it in line with PnP rules etc...

ok.. i can see that, BUT....

1/ When was the last time you where in a PnP dungeon quest and the GM let you swing that very large greatsword inside that 3foot wide tunnel?

2/ When was the last time in a PnP quest that you all stood FACING one enemy (ie you all have him boxed in) and the GM let you all swing at him with those large greatswords WITHOUT CAUSING EACH OFF YOU TO GET HIT BY EACH OTHERS SWORDS!

3/ When was the last time in a PnP quest when the GM let you all stand on top of each other and attack with your swords all at the same time using all your special moves in very tight spaces without any of you taking damae from each others attacks?

Now these where just observations i noted that suddenly jumped out at me as i was playing my melee rogue, and yeah we all stand on top of each other swinging madly at creatures with our swords. If you want damage from casters spells to effect party members then we MUST HAVE the corresponding balance of melees causing damage as well, then add in the weapon restrictions based on dungeon size etc..

Do you tanks really want that? do you want to be forced to use daggers in small areas? do you want to lose your melee specials as well due to space restrictions?

sure it'd fanatastic to have this level of game play in the game and i do like the idea.. BUT... in a MMO i cant see how it would ever work out.
How many of you would get so utterly frustrated and quite that when ever you go to attack you get a message "unable to attack with that weapon in this place, choose a smaller weapon"
or then theres the "wheres the healer? i'm getting wasted here" only to hear back, sorry none of us is joining you while you swing that greatsword around in that confinded space, you'll kill us as well!

You call for nerfs to casters, but many of us casters play melees as well, if we call for nerfs to melees well many of us melees play casters also.
you get the point?
By nerfing one class you only hurting YOURSELF as at some time you might want to play the class your calling to get nerfed.

Lets play this game as it is. A TEAM game requiring TEAM players to play in a TEAM utilizing each others strenghts to cover each others weaknesses.

Now thats real D&D there. a TEAM game!

[MysticTheurge]

2/ When was the last time in a PnP quest that you all stood FACING one enemy (ie you all have him boxed in) and the GM let you all swing at him with those large greatswords WITHOUT CAUSING EACH OFF YOU TO GET HIT BY EACH OTHERS SWORDS!

Um... every time?

D&D doesn't work like that.

[Emili]

Um... every time?

D&D doesn't work like that.

I was thinking the same thing...

Anyway, for the OP, I really do not think people are calling for a caster nerf... I really think they're calling for making all classes a viable one in an MMO environment.

[issiana]

okies its being a while since i PnP'd but back when i did, we where never allowed to fight like we do in DDO without causing damage to each other by our GM. maybe that was just his way of looking at the rules, but hey, its always being that way to me as it makes perfect sense.

my point is that ALL classes are viable atm. all we need to do is play as a team and stop trying to be better than each other. we need to stop thinking xxx class can solo xxx quest so its the uber and xx class cant do jack so its useless.

casters are powerful but have limits,
melee are powerful but have limits,
rangers are powerful but have limits,
clerics are powerful but have limits,
Rogues are powerful but have limits,
Bards are powerful but have limits

my point is work together and have fun.
who cares who killed xxx bad guy with xxx item. at the end the quest was completed and all had fun.. right??

[smatt]

casters are powerful but have limits,

Hmm, not really no they have almost no limit, except when they have to actually spend 2-3 minutes running and getting mana. Man this caster is over-powered discussion just goes on and on. IMO they are way over-powered as comparted to every other class in the game. BUT, I've not seen one GOOD solution to such a problem, other than the Devs hopefully using quest/mob design to bring casters along with thier extremely self-important attitudes back down into the realm of the living Anythign that could possibly be done, or that has been thrown out there to limit the kill everything all th etime type casters either has to do with PEOPLE (as in players) who play casters give a **** about others and the fact that other people who like to play other classes MIGHT like to have fun as well. Which the devs have no control over... Or, it would simply cause so much damage to teh caster classes, as to nerf the non-level caps to the point where they wouldn't be having fun either. In any case, I don't see anything happening anyway..... I just hope the Devs recognize the obvious and adjust quests/mobs. The Devs have seen fit to create a situation,w here the only classes able to EFFICIANTLY, and resonably EASILY solo inthe game at high level are the casters classes. This seems to only be gettingorse with thenleashing of the mobs in the desert/Orchard/Vale areas. That would completely destroy the ability of any but the casters from doing anything significant without having that caster around to AOE everything in site. Now now, I have nothing against the csters classes at all. In fact I count on them just like everybody does, BUT the problem is, they DON'T have to count on others at this point for the most part. THAT is the problem And it's also not ALL casters, BUT it has become far more prevalent as of late that's for sure. Happy New Year to all

[BlueLightBandit]

Hmm, not really no they have almost no limit,

The point of the post you were referring to was simply to point out that EVERY class has limits.

And they do.

[Tanka]

In a room that only has a three foot width and (say) a seven foot height (I'm 6'4", for reference), I can swing a five-and-a-half foot greatsword with no problems. It takes more concentration to do so, yes.

In PnP, fighters (including barbs, pallies, and whoever else wants to use a greatsword) are specifically trained to fight under many constrictions. Close quarters being one of them.

Hitting your friend might be a fumble. However, if I rolled well and hit my target, I shouldn't be hitting my friend next to me.

[Hvymetal]

I dunno I use rapiers mainly so yea fighting in a 3' hallway not an issue for me Actually many melee weapons have secondary attack modes, so if you wanna call on a nerf to greatswords & greataxes be my guest

[Beherit_Baphomar]

who cares who killed xxx bad guy with xxx item. at the end the quest was completed and all had fun.. right??

Wrong.

Its not about that. Its about having a character thats viable in all the quests. Its about having a character that can go
into Ghosts of Perdition and DO something. Its about having a character that I enjoy playing and dont want to
see standing at a freakin wall while everything is PK'd.

Casters and clerics own MOD 5, fighters/barbs/rangers/paladins(Ha!)/rogues all second class citizens of Stormreach. Brought along
cause the casters need something pulled, or picked.

I understand casters should be god-like at higher levels, does that mean we need to make AC pointless? And AC is pointless
in the Necro against all the ghosts. Do melee really need to have a huge slowdown on their swings per second?? I mean really?

Do you honestly like the fact that in some quests little to no melee is used? I dont. I thought this was about party balance.

[Missing_Minds]

Wrong.

Its not about that. Its about having a character thats viable in all the quests. Its about having a character that can go
into Ghosts of Perdition and DO something. Its about having a character that I enjoy playing and dont want to
see standing at a freakin wall while everything is PK'd.

Casters and clerics own MOD 5, fighters/barbs/rangers/paladins(Ha!)/rogues all second class citizens of Stormreach. Brought along
cause the casters need something pulled, or picked.

I understand casters should be god-like at higher levels, does that mean we need to make AC pointless? And AC is pointless
in the Necro against all the ghosts. Do melee really need to have a huge slowdown on their swings per second?? I mean really?

Do you honestly like the fact that in some quests little to no melee is used? I dont. I thought this was about party balance.

BP, let me ask you something simple. Is DDO a game? If you say yes, is the point of it to.. pwn everything, get the loot, win the rp, have the most kills.... in other words, have fun in your own style?

My point and my opinion is that DDO IS a game, and I will have fun. You can try to stop this if you want, but I doubt you'll suceed. I mean I had a cleric who refused to heal me at all in a quest (and no I was not on a WF, less hit points than your standard fighter though. about 150 or there abouts) I shrugged, and played harder and had a blast. So sure, try to grief me... I still have fun. I still win.

[bigj1608]

how bout this one:

DDO IS NOT PNP!!! DROP IT!!!

[Aspenor]

With exceptions made for Ghosts of Perdition, and Temple of Vol (especially as originally released) I don't see that melee has been exceptionally marginalized.

Sure many quests in the desert and gianthold can be easily solod/duod by a well-equipped and competently played caster, but a poorly played caster ends up being a severe liability.

I prefer to play casters over melee, that's just my playing style. However, when I actually do play my fighter I do not feel all that "useless" or marginalized. I intimidate, take hits, and consider myself essentially the cleric's bodyguard, and the caster's second. I try to help them control the aggro. I use my AC and saves to hold and control aggro, all the while doing decent DPS with my sexy dwarven axes.

If I were playing a barbarian, I would consider myself the leading force. I'd use my glancing blows and sustained DPS to attempt to hold aggro, relying on hit points, DR and saves to keep me standing through the attention. I'd grab attention and try to hold it while everybody mops up. I'd probably get a good number of kills in the process.

Why does everybody have to feel like a star? Why can't we just find a niche to fill, and do so? On my wizard I cannot just nuke through everything, so I finger casters and then help fighters kill the melees. On my sorceror I consider myself a primary DPS character in MOST quests. It's not about being the star, either, it's about being stategic with my character and playing him to the best of my abilities. Just because I zerg a little to group up ten or twenty mobs for a cone of cold and fireball blitz doesn't mean I'm overpowered when I get every kill, it just means that I used my resources in the most efficient manner possible to fulfill my role.

I understand that you guys want to kill things as contribution to the party, but there are more things to do than just kill for everybody in this game. If people discriminate against melees because they feel casters are more useful, I will say to them the same I said about rogues about a year ago: don't say no to a character just because of their class unless you simply must have a certain class in that slot, otherwise be open minded.

[Yaga_Nub]

Wrong.

Its not about that. Its about having a character thats viable in all the quests. Its about having a character that can go
into Ghosts of Perdition and DO something. Its about having a character that I enjoy playing and dont want to
see standing at a freakin wall while everything is PK'd.

Casters and clerics own MOD 5, fighters/barbs/rangers/paladins(Ha!)/rogues all second class citizens of Stormreach. Brought along
cause the casters need something pulled, or picked.

I understand casters should be god-like at higher levels, does that mean we need to make AC pointless? And AC is pointless
in the Necro against all the ghosts. Do melee really need to have a huge slowdown on their swings per second?? I mean really?

Do you honestly like the fact that in some quests little to no melee is used? I dont. I thought this was about party balance.

B, hell my caster dies fast enought in Ghosts that "I" don't ever feel like I'm doing something either.

So wizards, sorcs, and clerics own Mod 5, haven't the melees owned Mods 1 through 4? So I guess that means that the casters are due 5 through 8?

AC is pointless against the ghosts in the Necro whether casters are god-like or not right?

I agree that AC shouldn't be pointless but somewhere along the way it did become pretty pointless....... for some quests...... against certain mobs.

This is from a site about 4.0 rules -

Ancient dragons will have possibly over 1000hp and AC’s near 50.

They wouldn't ever be able to do that in DDO, we'd slaughter the dragon faster than it could fry us.

Who said this game was about party balance? This game is about completing an objective and taking all the friggin' loot you can get your grubby little hands on.

[BlueLightBandit]

Um... every time?

D&D doesn't work like that.

I think he meant "boxing in" the mob... standing on four sides of it, preventing it from moving out of melee range... which I very rarely remember happening in a pen and paper game.

Then again... this is DDO, not D&D. Any discussion regarding DDO should remain D&D free if it is to be relevant.

[MysticTheurge]

Then again... this is DDO, not D&D. Any discussion regarding DDO should remain D&D free if it is to be relevant.

That's absurd.

DDO is D&D Online. Any discussion of DDO must take D&D into consideration in order to be relevant.

[Taojeff]

That's absurd.

DDO is D&D Online. Any discussion of DDO must take D&D into consideration in order to be relevant.

Oh and sooooooo losely based, I think no other game in the history of computer games has so bent the rules the way DDO has, probably the reason why PnP fans left in droves shortly after the release years ago.

[Raithe]

Oh and sooooooo losely based, I think no other game in the history of computer games has so bent the rules the way DDO has, probably the reason why PnP fans left in droves shortly after the release years ago.

Yes, a few hardcore rules lawyers probably left the game shortly after launch. Most D&D fans, I'm sure, left because of the lack of D&D feel. No roleplaying. Repeating quests. No player generated stories. A focus on getting "loot."

Most of us D&D fans kind of go with the flow when it comes to rules. DDO is actually doing ok in that regard, it's just everything else that's out of whack.

[MysticTheurge]

Oh and sooooooo losely based...

Or, you know, like everything else WotC's done with D&D in the last, what did they say, 2 years, it was a testing ground for the concepts they're cooking up for 4th edition.

Honestly, there are definitely things I read about 4E, where I go "Oh, hey, that's kind of like DDO."

[bellack]

I think he meant "boxing in" the mob... standing on four sides of it, preventing it from moving out of melee range... which I very rarely remember happening in a pen and paper game.

Then again... this is DDO, not D&D. Any discussion regarding DDO should remain D&D free if it is to be relevant.

Well in the 3.0 and 3.5 rules using the battle mat you can box in a PC or NPC if you have people occupying the squares (hexes) around the victim. Actully a pretty good tactic. Not I think since DDO is suppose to be Dungeon and Dragons Online, then discussions reguarding DDO should NOT be D&D free no matter how much Turbine has screwed up this game.

[CrimsonEagle]

Um... every time?

D&D doesn't work like that.

Unless you fumble, then roll a critical hit, thus decapitate your friend standing next to you. Yep....it happend. Everyone thought it was funny except the guy I decapitated. He threw a hissy fit and we busted his balls for the next month