Let us do that math people

[Pyromaniac]

Aye... vorpal is only suppose to be on a nat 20 with confirm...

Just curious what 2 capped toons you've retired? I do not advocate nerfing any class but I do see where certain classes are not even useful... I do not even bother swinging my weapons half the time on my fighters anymore - at one time it was important to swing a weapon they can hit extremely hard, 150 damage with a onehander or 200+ with a 2hander once in a while just is not wirth the effort - To fight things with melee is a time sink, now it's just easier to use a melee as an errand girl to bring the mob back for a nuking.

I retired my human paladin, due to the Human Versatility, aura and divine favor nerfs. -5 UMD doesn't equal a clicky replacement. No need to start a HV nerf discussion, it was enough for me to quit on that toon. imo they totally gimped paladins and made them into not as good a class as they should be.

I also retired my ranger, as ranged combat was smacked down hard (whether by bug or nerf I can't honestly tell - though I think its some of both). Yes I hear mod6 claims to 'fix' ranged combat, but have no faith in this one ever working.


One might call the vorpal nerf a vorpal fix - i'm sure to the guys using vorpals at the time it was a nerf in their minds. You could argue most game changes are "fixes" as there's a lot in the game that doesn't follow the PnP rules.

[smatt]

I retired my human paladin, due to the Human Versatility, aura and divine favor nerfs. -5 UMD doesn't equal a clicky replacement. No need to start a HV nerf discussion, it was enough for me to quit on that toon. imo they totally gimped paladins and made them into not as good a class as they should be.

I also retired my ranger, as ranged combat was smacked down hard (whether by bug or nerf I can't honestly tell - though I think its some of both). Yes I hear mod6 claims to 'fix' ranged combat, but have no faith in this one ever working.

Yes, so now you stick to the only over-powered class inthe game

[Borror0]

How on earth is a batman nerfed? Most batman characters I know are still very effective.

Batman was a decent AC intimitank with high UMD, evasion and capacity to disable traps.

Yeah, Batman cannot do what he was intended to do.

[MysticTheurge]

You could argue most game changes are "fixes"

Funny that.

[Invalid_86]

Unless of course they relied upon Human Versatility to hit the high skill marks they were hitting and did not bother to have enough dex to make use of light armor for evasion without totally killing their AC. Personally I don't think it's ever wise to build a character "that can do everything" very well, especially on enhancemnet lines/abilities that don't exist in the books or the abilities are not implimented similarly to the rules because you may be opening yourself up to later changes that may severly impact your character.

Can anyone seriously think that that wasn't going to get fixed?

Then again the same people will probably be surprised if/when Dwarf enhancements get fixed.

[Borror0]

Then again the same people will probably be surprised if/when Dwarf enhancements get fixed.

I think it's the other races that need some help.

• Elf? Underwhelming, except maybe for rogues.. but Drow beat them out because of their Dex, Cha and Int bonus. Longsword enhancement is nice, but that's pretty much it.
  
• Halfling? LOL - Haflfing luck, all there is even there...
  
• Drow? Decent for rogues, not that great for the rest.
  
• Human are simply low on interesting ones, overall still good. The biggest bonus they have is their bonus feat and it's the major reason they are played.
  
• WF are pretty good on enhancement. their Power attack enhancement is pretty in an enviroment where two-handed fighting is so effective.

But there again, I'm a big lover of their enhancement system. I think it's osmething really neat. I love the concept the way it's being done. That's actually the thing about D&D 3.5 I love most, the capacity to create so many good builds. So many things to consider, to look at. I love to possiblity to adjust them to your gear. However, I fidn that there is too much potential and not enough of it at use. One thing that I love a lot is the idea of feat-based enhancement, you have the feat, you get the possibility to get enhancement, Toughness is the example we currently see most. Power Attack is another one of them. Problem is, they are restricted to a class or race. There is good and bad in it. Good because it makes the race more insteresting, more unique. If you look at the flavor of the Dwarven race, you clearly see it's race centered about survavibility. More HP fit them well.

The problem is not in the enhancement itself, but in the game being so rewarding about it. If you look at it, AC is being left out by most bulders, because it's not owrth the investement in it. We are at a point where mobs hit so hard, nothnig to mitigate the damage. DR? C'mon.. like if 3 DR/Adamantine will do a big difference. AC? Errr.. try to get around 50 because otherwise it's not worth it. That's what endgame is about now, lots of HP and DPS. Kill it fast, before it kills you.

I had a few conversation, in-game, with a few players when I todl them my fighter's HP. 300 HP, their reaction? Too low! Ya, 300 HP.. too low. How much can a rogue get, without being a Dwarf? A Bard? A ranger? A cleric? Those are calses capable of fighting, that's why they got 3/4 BAB progression. Right? Because otherwise I don't get it. That's what is broken and needs nerfing. Mobs to-hit. then, they need to add enhancement all accross the board. Yes, a barbarian is not made for AC, I can live that. Yes, a fighter will never equal a barbarian in damage, I can live with that. But when being Dwarf and non-dwarf makes the difference between being "too low" or "high enough", there's a problem.

The other day, I was with my best friend in DToV and a cleric guildy. The three others were PuGGed. My best friend's main is a pure class barbarian. She is enjoying Critical Rage a lot, so she finds it silly when a barbarian splashes two levels of fighter. She find the DPS gotten from Critical Rage to be much bigger than any feat or enhancement could compensate for. Also that they'll loose on Mighty Rage at level 20, which will also hurt them more than 2 fighter level could give them. But hey, doesn't mean he's a total gimp.

Anyway, I never refuse a player only on his clas break up, you always might end up very surprised. So, we have a rough fight and the cleric throws a heal scroll or two on our two barbarians since he knows it'd be long for them to themselves up. My friend, a human barbarian based of maldini with HPs somewhere above 400 gets topped of by one heal scroll since she had started to drink potions. The other barbarian didn't drink a single potion, and he told us why after the frist heal scroll. One heal scroll barely made his HP bar move. He said that he has 578 HP unraged at that he doesn't drink potions because it's far too expensive.

Now, this has started a serie of tells between my friend and I. Because that means he got five toughness feat and all the possible enhacnement for HP. We both concluded the same: not cost efficient. She has the three Two-Handed Fighting feats and she lvoes them. The damage dealt by glancing blows are just stunning. With that much APs in toughness, he has much weaker rage. So, basicly, he he has a HUGE stack of HP but lower DPS meaning he gets more damage than my friend because the mobs survive longer. That's how these enhancement should be. A little more HP is nice, a few ranks would be taken on that race nearly almost all the time. Mostly because they'd be good low level enhancements. But more, nah, not really.

These enhancements should allow the possibility to dump-stat Consitution more on a Dwarf to spend more points on other stuff without gimping your HP. When you make a fighter, you should be able to tell yourself "Oh, I could go dwarf for Dwarven axes, Spell Defense, a little more HP and cheaper Armor Mastery.. or I could go that for this and that." Where this and that are also really neat. Problem is, this and that are not more attractive than a little more HP most of the time.

More enhancements is the key, nerfing is a BandAid. Not creative and never leads to a better game, except a few circumstances where making the othr calss/races better is not the key. Critical Rage is one of them, it'll be changed one or or they other.. probably has somehting that hadds damage to crits rather than increase their probability to happen. Human Versatility is another one of them. These enhancements were or are pushing something too far, without any way to bring the other classes on par. It is not the case of toughness ehhancements.

I'll say it again, why ask for a nerf when what you really want is to be more powerful? At leats have the courage to admit it and ask for it. If you have enough good arguments, maybe the Devs will listen and do something about it. That's what the paladins did and they said we'll have some Paladin love in module 7.

[Invalid_86]

More enhancements is the key, nerfing is a BandAid. Not creative and never leads to a better game, except a few circumstances where making the othr calss/races better is not the key. Critical Rage is one of them, it'll be changed one or or they other.. probably has somehting that hadds damage to crits rather than increase their probability to happen. Human Versatility is another one of them. These enhancements were or are pushing something too far, without any way to bring the other classes on par. It is not the case of toughness ehhancements.

I'll say it again, why ask for a nerf when what you really want is to be more powerful? At leats have the courage to admit it and ask for it. If you have enough good arguments, maybe the Devs will listen and do something about it. That's what the paladins did and they said we'll have some Paladin love in module 7.

I'm not looking to get more powerful by nerfing someone else.

The answer can't be just making everyone else even more powerful. That's just making the present power balance worse, and to put it bluntly enhancements should never be more powerful than feats. But that's what we are ending up with, and in the long run it's just going to cause more problems.

Nerfs aren't a band aid when they are a fix for a real problem. And right now Dwarves just have it too good.

[MysticTheurge]

and to put it bluntly enhancements should never be more powerful than feats.

A little late (by about 2 years) for that.

[Pellegro]

Not another caster v. tank thread ?!?

From levels 1 to ... oh , 10-12 or so, melee > casters.

From 12-14, casters > melee.

Who knows what 15+ will bring ?!?

Let casters enjoy their heyday. It may be over soon.

And if its not - big deal, melee has levels 1-10, casters can be superior 11-20. Melees are still effective, even if outdamaged by casters.

[Pellegro]

• Elf? Underwhelming, except maybe for rogues.. but Drow beat them out because of their Dex, Cha and Int bonus. Longsword enhancement is nice, but that's pretty much it.
  
• Halfling? LOL - Haflfing luck, all there is even there...
  
• Drow? Decent for rogues, not that great for the rest.
  
• Human are simply low on interesting ones, overall still good. The biggest bonus they have is their bonus feat and it's the major reason they are played.
  
• WF are pretty good on enhancement. their Power attack enhancement is pretty in an enviroment where two-handed fighting is so effective.

Elf: Nobody makes a better finesser than an elf. TWF Elven rangers, with Rapier enhancements, remain extraordinarily viable.

Halfling: You may not like it, but the halfling dragonmarks are pretty sweet as well. A halfling can have nice saves + what, 5 full heals/rest? Plus a ton of the lower heals .... Costs 3 feats but its pretty sweet. Throw in enhanced heal feat for 4 full feats and you've got a pretty impressive healing rogue (or fighter or barb or wahtever). Excellent for short-manning.

Drow: They're great. ... No need to explain taht one ...

Human: The increased heal efficiency enhancement is sweet, you get bonus stat points, plus the feat. Also, the human skill boosts are still pretty dang useful especially for dipping into rogue or UMD.

WF: Underappreciated. I don't like them for end game but from lvls 1-10 WF are pretty dang sweet with all their immunities. Plus nice enchancements.

Dwarves are good, there's no denying it ... but they're not the end-all be all.

Besides, they're ugly.

[Borror0]

Nerfs aren't a band aid when they are a fix for a real problem.

Yes, we agree on that, but it depends on what there is to fix.

And right now Dwarves just have it too good.

No, they are not.

Yes, those enhancements are unbalancing, but not because Dwarves are too good. What is wrong is needing so much HP. When anything but a Dwarf or a fighter is considertaed "squishy". When you can build a 300 HP wizard, but that your non-dwarf ranger or rogue or cleric or bard cannot reach that much. This, by itself is not a problem. The problem is when that much HP is needed to melee, to not die easily. That's where the problem is. The problem is when a d8 or d6 Hit Dice with a Full BAB progression or a 3/4 BAB progression, that are made to be able to contribute in melee, is too big. Where Ac doesn't matter unless you got the gear and the build for it. That is the problem.

Like the barbarian with 578 HP unraged, more HP isn't always a good thing. Sometimes, it's overkill. Sometimes, it's nice but it has a cost. That is where I was heading too, if they add a bunch of enhancements, really nice ones.. then you'll have to sacrifice a lot to get that much HP. Making it less attractive. That is what "rebalancing" should be. In this game, it's all about "making your own character", about so many choices, so many possibilities. Sometimes, you got to look into an overpowered aspect and ask yourself why it is overpowered. In some cases, the action is (and should be taken) on the enhancement, like Human Versatility. In other cases, like this one, I think it's just a reflexion of what is currently borken in the game and should be fixed.

[Borror0]

Elf: Nobody makes a better finesser than an elf. TWF Elven rangers, with Rapier enhancements, remain extraordinarily viable.

Why go Dex-based at all? Less DPS? If you meant Ranged, I can give you that one, but currently the ranged damage is very underwhelming, let's see how well they'll have fixed it in the next module. I know a sweet finess build build.. but it's concentration isn't damage...

Halfling: You may not like it, but the halfling dragonmarks are pretty sweet as well. A halfling can have nice saves + what, 5 full heals/rest? Plus a ton of the lower heals .... Costs 3 feats but its pretty sweet. Throw in enhanced heal feat for 4 full feats and you've got a pretty impressive healing rogue (or fighter or barb or wahtever). Excellent for short-manning.

I've seen a few Dragonmarked hafling, really impressing in the ened of a good player. I always thought it'd be less effective than that.. but still. Halflfings are currently very underwhelming. How many halfling builds do you see on these forums? Think the most common is the thrower build..

Drow: They're great. ... No need to explain taht one ...

Skill enhancements? Ya, if you have use for it (rogue).
Rapier & Shortsword? Ya, if you melee.

But guess what, that's it.

Human: The increased heal efficiency enhancement is sweet, you get bonus stat points, plus the feat. Also, the human skill boosts are still pretty dang useful especially for dipping into rogue or UMD.

Healing enhancement with Heal going for 300+.. nah.
Like I said, bonus feat is really nice. Main reason to go Human to this day.
Human Boost? First I don't like boost, but for some cases might be good. Really sweet for Multiclassed rogue, but I heard a few times that rogues don't hit their Action boost at end game... might be wrong, never brought a rogue that far.

WF: Underappreciated. I don't like them for end game but from lvls 1-10 WF are pretty dang sweet with all their immunities. Plus nice enchancements.

Really? I think lv10+ is where they really shine. I mean, before that the penalty to healing is annoying, but later one a Heal on them is doing fine and they are much less of a pain to keep healed. But yes, I agree, they are underappreciated.

Dwarves are good, there's no denying it ... but they're not the end-all be all.

Agreed. Doesn't mean that other races should have more enhancements.

Besides, they're ugly.

Dwarves are the coolest looking race ever, ok? But I'll say you're right about female dwarves..

[Hvymetal]

Can anyone seriously think that that wasn't going to get fixed?

Then again the same people will probably be surprised if/when Dwarf enhancements get fixed.

No argument here, I never made a Batman, if want to play a versitile character I play one of my Rogues.

[Elvish_Ranger]

Have you tried another spell? actually I've not found a mob who is impervious to every spell in a wizards pallete as of yet... there is always a spell you can use. ie.) a wizard can feeblemind things out of casting... they can use necro spells etc... many of which get no saves, like i said a wizard always has a spell which does something to a mob.

was just making an example as there are many mobs even though u can cast anything you want they can be either resistant or immune or have high sr...

[Pyromaniac]

Yes, so now you stick to the only over-powered class inthe game

No I don't play a bard, or a fighter hybrid with a splash of paladin

I play a sorcerer, rogue, cleric and then occasionally a barbarian (in order of playtime). I also have a mage I'm working on as well. Those are the most fun classes to me.

Why would I go back to playing a paladin, which has been "fixed" to underpoweredness?

[MysticTheurge]

No, they are not.

Yes, those enhancements are unbalancing, but not because Dwarves are too good. What is wrong is needing so much HP.

I'm confused.

Can't the "needing too many HPs" be directly tied to the "Dwarven enhancements are too good" thing? I mean, if Dwarves couldn't get an extra 50 HP, then people wouldn't be expected to have quite so many, right?

[Taojeff]

Can anyone seriously think that that wasn't going to get fixed?

Then again the same people will probably be surprised if/when Dwarf enhancements get fixed.

Or not so suprised when casters get fixed,

[samagee]

I was just thinking, in PnP casters DO NOT out damage moderately equipped fighters if I am correct.

Moderately equiped fighter with a 22 str, +3 weapon, and Specialization at level 14 would get 4 attacks if I remember right, using a great axe you would get 1.5 times strength with power attack. This is a style used by many dps builds in DDO btw, the two-handed axe style etc.

So 1d12(avg 6) +8 str, +3 weapon, +4 spec x 4 =84

Caster level 12 12d6 = average 36

Hmmmmmm

See what I am getting at.

Casters were never meant to take out huge groups of mobs unless they were low hd mobs. In fact, you almost never see room clearing fireballs in PnP except at lower level with low HD mobs.

Casters in DDO are drunk on power, quit your whining and except a nerf for the balance of the game.

What server do you play on? I'll make sure not to cast anything for you.

[samagee]

I was just thinking, in PnP casters DO NOT out damage moderately equipped fighters if I am correct.

Moderately equiped fighter with a 22 str, +3 weapon, and Specialization at level 14 would get 4 attacks if I remember right, using a great axe you would get 1.5 times strength with power attack. This is a style used by many dps builds in DDO btw, the two-handed axe style etc.

So 1d12(avg 6) +8 str, +3 weapon, +4 spec x 4 =84

Caster level 12 12d6 = average 36

Hmmmmmm

See what I am getting at.

Casters were never meant to take out huge groups of mobs unless they were low hd mobs. In fact, you almost never see room clearing fireballs in PnP except at lower level with low HD mobs.

Casters in DDO are drunk on power, quit your whining and except a nerf for the balance of the game.

I see that you have a very limited view of castors and what they bring to the table. I have been playing a castor of many different flavors over the years, and I can tell you that we need to have all the spells available here in DDO. I would also like to see all the spells usable in the dueling areas. If they fail their saving throw, they take damage. A castor has the potential to cause a lot of damage. Wait till you see what happens when we maximize spells as well.

[Borror0]

Can't the "needing too many HPs" be directly tied to the "Dwarven enhancements are too good" thing? I mean, if Dwarves couldn't get an extra 50 HP, then people wouldn't be expected to have quite so many, right?

Yes and no. While it would fix the whole expecting HP part, it wouldn't solve it all. I remember a while ago when you were saying that a cleric and a fighter should both be able to get similar AC, shouldn't they be also not over 200 HP difference at level 14? I mean, yes, there is a difference in HD, but that's not that big. When module 6 comes live, it is very likely mobs will hit even harder and that AC will be even more "worthless" as in "If you got anything under 50 AC, don't bother with it".. or that number will be even higher. That's where we're heading too. Lots of HP, no AC, lots of DPS. It's not a problem itself, untill some classes cannot keep up.

From my point of view, it's the same thnig that happenned to AC. They boosted it so high for some, that the others couldn't keep up. Now, people said themselves "The hell with the AC".. but they can't tell themselves "The hell with HP"... If there is no way to avoid damage and that mitigation is only effective by one race.. we have the problem of that race being very popular for that single reason. Say the benchmark would be somewhere around 220. A 14 Con rogue with a +6 con item, Minos Legend and Greater False Life can get to 230, or 246 with Toughness feat. (Yes, I know the amount of gear it takes.) So, he'd be over it.A dwarf rogue would be more confortable on his HP, but he'd have to sacrifice things to get that. But right now, I got 300 HP on my 55 AC tank, and it's enough so let me doubt about 230 being alright.

Yes, rogue are squishier, but a fighter can get 336 HP if he goes all the way with Toughness and 14 Con... but fighters are more "room" for 16 Con. So more about 350 HP. So yeah, that is over 100 HP difference when the difference should really be more like 56-70. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm seeing problems where there aren't.. but this is the problem I really see with Toughness. It is not overpowered by itself, some people will enjoy going rogue and having a little more HP.. but they are going to give up DPS or other really nice things by doing so, like that barbarian did to have 578 HP unraged. It'd be a matter of preference.. but right nowe the enviroment is so HP centric that... well.. HP is the way to go.