Let us do that math people

[GlassCannon]

Sorry man, but for me right-clicking repeatedly and strategically placing my character and hitting the intimidate button just isn't all that exciting.

Same here. That's why I play a caster that tends to aggravate EVERYTHING at once... or a Ranger that does almost the same thing(Rangers are for ranged combat, not melee).

I do love riding the razor's edge.

I do hate the tedious monotony of playing a high AC tank.

[GlassCannon]

You have not been in the same PuGs as me..

Yes, if you're skilled and geared, you're really powerful. Yes, melees need more firepower.

Find solutions, just don't whine.
Nerf is never the way to go, never.

Give 'em grenades, nukes, ice bombs... machineguns.

Let's just remove casters period and make this a Halo spinoff shall we?

[Borror0]

Let's just remove casters period and make this a Halo spinoff shall we?

Ok.. how can explain this to you. Er.. let's see...

If casters become too powerful up to a point where every quest becomes a GoP all around, it'll be problematic. I'm not saying make all calss eqaully powerful, every class is different, have their own advantage and contribute in their own way. However, if we ever get to a point where casters brings so much to the table that nothing as effective as clerics, sorcerers and wizards parties, there will a problem.

Where not there yet, but there is not much ahead for much ahead for melee. What do they want more? More strength? We're capped on enhancements, won't get higher than +6 until Epic levels. Weapon cannot get that much better. Yes, we'll get better Holy burst of Pure Good but.. not that much more damage. Casters will get more dices on their spells. Maybe more enhancements to their spell damage. More mana so they can waste it even more (not that it's not really hard to manage it and cast all quest long anyway...) and kill even faster. Oh.. and more powerful spells!!

Meleers can't tank much, unless they got Intimidate... but they seem to feel like making AC totally useless. I just throwed a 500 damage Scorching Ray on that mob, how could any melee out-damage me? Anyway, if he does the mob will be dead by then. so, what is their roll? Additonnal DPS? Another caster could to that.

[Raithe]

If casters become too powerful up to a point where every quest becomes a GoP all around, it'll be problematic. I'm not saying make all calss eqaully powerful, every class is different, have their own advantage and contribute in their own way. However, if we ever get to a point where casters brings so much to the table that nothing [is] as effective as clerics, sorcerers and wizards parties, there will a problem.

Oh please. You act like anyone knows anything about effectiveness. Some classes have been discriminated against since the day the game was released, and mainly due to bias (based on what character classes have been played effectively by the player in question) and stereotypes brought from completely different MMOs.

Let's take the dragon rooms in the Tor for example:

The white dragon room has cometfalls that are generally avoided with evasion + a high reflex save.
The blue dragon room has lightning traps that do 50-70 damage that are generally avoided with evasion + a high reflex save.
The black dragon room has acid traps, delayed blast fireball, and ball lightning that are generally avoided with evasion + a high reflex save.

The damage done in these rooms by the dragon and giant (normally) do not usually come close to the amount of damage done by these other effects. Does anyone look for rogues or rangers for the Tor to help mitigate damage? Nope... they want 2 heavy melee, 2 casters, and 2 clerics (which is usually overkill and wastes sp/scrolls). DPS is not even important in those rooms, and can actually be a detriment if it isn't placed in the right proportion.

No one cares about effectiveness in this game, it's all about ego right now. People will keep playing fighters and barbarians even if they are the hardest classes in the game to play well. Oh wait... they already are.

[Borror0]

Oh please. You act like anyone knows anything about effectiveness. Some classes have been discriminated against since the day the game was released, and mainly due to bias (based on what character classes have been played effectively by the player in question) and stereotypes brought from completely different MMOs.

True.

Or many Sword and Board Paladin do we see with less than 40 AC in GH?

[Xaxx]

I was just thinking, in PnP casters DO NOT out damage moderately equipped fighters if I am correct.

Moderately equiped fighter with a 22 str, +3 weapon, and Specialization at level 14 would get 4 attacks if I remember right, using a great axe you would get 1.5 times strength with power attack. This is a style used by many dps builds in DDO btw, the two-handed axe style etc.

So 1d12(avg 6) +8 str, +3 weapon, +4 spec x 4 =84

Caster level 12 12d6 = average 36

Hmmmmmm

See what I am getting at.

Casters were never meant to take out huge groups of mobs unless they were low hd mobs. In fact, you almost never see room clearing fireballs in PnP except at lower level with low HD mobs.

Casters in DDO are drunk on power, quit your whining and except a nerf for the balance of the game.

I will accept the caster nerf when the level 14 ddo fighter has the +3 long sword instead of the +5 shocking burst of maiming

[Xaxx]

Ok.. how can explain this to you. Er.. let's see...

If casters become too powerful up to a point where every quest becomes a GoP all around, it'll be problematic. I'm not saying make all calss eqaully powerful, every class is different, have their own advantage and contribute in their own way. However, if we ever get to a point where casters brings so much to the table that nothing as effective as clerics, sorcerers and wizards parties, there will a problem.

Where not there yet, but there is not much ahead for much ahead for melee. What do they want more? More strength? We're capped on enhancements, won't get higher than +6 until Epic levels. Weapon cannot get that much better. Yes, we'll get better Holy burst of Pure Good but.. not that much more damage. Casters will get more dices on their spells. Maybe more enhancements to their spell damage. More mana so they can waste it even more (not that it's not really hard to manage it and cast all quest long anyway...) and kill even faster. Oh.. and more powerful spells!!

Meleers can't tank much, unless they got Intimidate... but they seem to feel like making AC totally useless. I just throwed a 500 damage Scorching Ray on that mob, how could any melee out-damage me? Anyway, if he does the mob will be dead by then. so, what is their roll? Additonnal DPS? Another caster could to that.

500 point scorching ray... wow... i'm assuming you have max crit rate and max crit multiplier and got lucky... oh and btw how many times can a caster throw one of those.. and how many times can that fighter swing his sword.... oh casters have a specific amount of mana and fighters can swing and swign and swing.... hmm sounds to me like the game needs an exhaustion system since casters dont get to regen mana between shrines

[Xaxx]

oh and guys lets not forget they're giving even more stuff evasion..... such as while on risia i threw a cone of cold at some twilight wolves... and no dmg popped... just *save*... evasion on a wolf.... umm.... so what else is to come?

[Westerner]

Now I point out the arguement... why some people cry nerf or inbalance or whatever, the arguement of the thread. How does one justify thier fun? Is it in thier build... is it in the group... is it in the loot? It's in feeling like they're a part of something. It's not by way of the kill counter, it's by way of feeling they're playing some part to getting to the end of the goal, It's being of some significance. Like I stated you're going to see less and less viable uses for the melee classes and moreso in the casting classes as the levels increase - afterall they get more spells and more mana - compared to a feat or class ability 100sp and 5-6 new spells are far more versitile in a toon.

Exactly! As a melee, I don't need to lead in kill count, I just need to feel useful. On higher end content, I feel like I'm watching casters do everything, and I'm worried that this trend will go up as lvl cap goes up.

[Mercules]

I think one of the problems we're seeing is that melee characters aren't able to fill one of their most important roles effectively.

Looking forward to 4th edition again, Fighters and Paladins are "defenders." From what I've read, this largely means that they have abilities that help them protect their allies. Some of this might be stuff like paladin auras, but a lot of it sounds like it's going to be things that make it hard for enemies to disengage from fighters and defenders. There's a whole section in Wizards Presents: Races and Classes about how "fighters are sticky" which explains how, once you engage a fighter (or he engages you) it becomes hard to get away.

Even in 3rd edition, melee classes play this role to a degree. Especially at high levels it becomes important for melee characters to be able to keep enemies away from the "squishier" characters like the spellcasters.

But the thing is, DDO doesn't have any of the things that make this possible, and adds several things that make it even worse.

No AoOs means that things can just run away from melee with impunity.

No tactical battle-grid means that it's really difficult to be sure that you're actually blocking the right area.

Odd system glitches mean stuff like kobolds walking over characters can happen.

I realize many of these things are things that can't be implemented in DDO because of the difference in the nature of the game from D&D. But, some of them could be fixed (i.e. enemies walking over you) and more of them could be implemented in a way that keeps to the spirit of what they accomplish without requiring a tactical game.

For example, AoOs. We don't generate actual AoOs in DDO because it's almost impossible to know when/how you'd do it. Without a grid, you can't look and see where you should be moving to avoid AoOs. Randomly getting hit while you're running would be frustrating and annoying. Plus the one-hit-per-swing paradigm of DDO frowns on "hits" that don't coincide with you actually initiating a swing with your weapon. But can't we do something that would discourage just running past enemies (be they PC or NPC)? What if you generate an AoO of sorts, when you normally would, but instead of dealing damage it applies a short-duration penalty to-hit and AC?

As for defending by "body-blocking" (so to speak), what if, as your BAB increased, you actually blocked enemy movement across a wider space, meaning more fighter-y characters could provide better blocking than non-fighter-y characters.

I know it's not the most exciting role ever (and 4th edition does seem to be looking to change that with fighter powers), but "defending" is one of the important things that fighter-types do in D&D and it's pretty hard for them to do it in DDO.

(And yes, I realize intimidate allows you to do this some, but I don't find a single method to do this to be acceptable as the only solution. Multiple kinds of characters can fill out the "defender" role in D&D, and I'd like to see that happen in DDO. Not to mention that intimidate isn't even a class skill for paladins, in what has to be one of the most absurd cases of "We'll copy it directly from D&D and disregard the other drastic changes we've made to what that means.")

You are right... The loss of AoO has made it MUCH more difficult for warrior classes to control the flow of the fight. In D&D the following would happen if a mob tried to run past you. F=Fighter M=Mobile Object(Mob, Monster) S=Sorcerer

XXM
XXX
XFX
XXX
XXX
XSX

Mob moves up and moves into a threatened area. Nothing special happens but it either moves only 5' each turn, which allows the Fighter full attacks at it each turn, or it attempts to move past faster(tumbling can affect this as can Mobility) and ends up trigging Attack of Opportunity.

XXX
XXM
XFX
XXX
XXX
XSX

As it moves from there to here, AoO. Wham!

XXX
XFM
XXX
XXX
XSX

Another bunch forward and AoO(with Combat Reflexes). Wham!

XXX
XFX
XXM
XXX
XSX

One more step and it can hit the Sorcerer, but the Fighter gets another swing. Wham!

XXX
XFX
XXX
XXM
XSX


If the Mob gets to this point he is free to molest the sorcerer, but having allowed a Fighter multiple swings(and it is a rare Fighter that doesn't take Combat Reflexes) they probably are not in too good of shape if still alive.

Notice this was a WIDE hallway and I sometimes have problems keeping mobs behind a narrow doorway.

The only thing I can come up with are systems similar to other MMOs. There are some where certain classes attacks generate more agro/hate than others, much like the Warforged enhancement. Others were a special skill or attack generates hate in all nearby mobs, much like Intimidate. Only, in DDO these work, but there is no way to maintain that agro short of DPS.

Look at Tankers in CoH. Every attack from a Tanker generates agro in nearby mobs. They also have a Taunt power that creates agro in up to 5 mobs. In addition some of their "aura" powers also generate agro. A Tanker hopping into the middle of a group of mobs can loose their agro, but not if they try hard not to and know how to spread the attacks around.

We should have an option similar to this for melee focussed classes. The Paladin version doesn't do much for very long at all and I'm having problems seeing the WF enhancement really make a difference.

[Raithe]

Exactly! As a melee, I don't need to lead in kill count, I just need to feel useful. On higher end content, I feel like I'm watching casters do everything, and I'm worried that this trend will go up as lvl cap goes up.

There's an easy fix for that. Be useful. And not necessarily by killing things.

[Taojeff]

Oh please. You act like anyone knows anything about effectiveness. Some classes have been discriminated against since the day the game was released, and mainly due to bias (based on what character classes have been played effectively by the player in question) and stereotypes brought from completely different MMOs.

Let's take the dragon rooms in the Tor for example:

The white dragon room has cometfalls that are generally avoided with evasion + a high reflex save.
The blue dragon room has lightning traps that do 50-70 damage that are generally avoided with evasion + a high reflex save.
The black dragon room has acid traps, delayed blast fireball, and ball lightning that are generally avoided with evasion + a high reflex save.

The damage done in these rooms by the dragon and giant (normally) do not usually come close to the amount of damage done by these other effects. Does anyone look for rogues or rangers for the Tor to help mitigate damage? Nope... they want 2 heavy melee, 2 casters, and 2 clerics (which is usually overkill and wastes sp/scrolls). DPS is not even important in those rooms, and can actually be a detriment if it isn't placed in the right proportion.

No one cares about effectiveness in this game, it's all about ego right now. People will keep playing fighters and barbarians even if they are the hardest classes in the game to play well. Oh wait... they already are.

The problem is that 90% of the quests, dps is the only importance. If there was more in the way of breath for the content, more vareity....then maybe it would not be such a glaring problem.

[MysticTheurge]

The problem is that 90% of the quests, dps is the only importance.

This is baloney.

Your DPS goes in the hole as soon as you die, so damage mitigation is equally important. Not as flashy or exciting, but still important.

[Mercules]

This is baloney.

Your DPS goes in the hole as soon as you die, so damage mitigation is equally important. Not as flashy or exciting, but still important.

Yes but that is why we have Clerics... you know... since healing is the more bestest form of damage mitigation.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Yes but that is why we have Clerics... you know... since healing is the more bestest form of damage mitigation.

NO! Healing is damage recovery. Mitigation is avoiding, redirecting, or preventing damage from occurring in the first place.

[Taojeff]

This is baloney.

Your DPS goes in the hole as soon as you die, so damage mitigation is equally important. Not as flashy or exciting, but still important.

It might be, if death was not so trivial in this game.

[Mad_Bombardier]

It might be, if death was not so trivial in this game.

And Devs are working on changing that.

[barecm]

I find it a bit humorous to read the now caster vs melee debates play out on these boards. If we all remember (if you have been playing that long) when this game was in mod 1 and before, melee ruled. Casters were crying about how they could not damage anything and the game was really a melee game only. So while the casters and melee types currently debate who should be nerfed or not, the rangers and rogues sit on the sidelines and laugh since the game never was or never will be designed around them. We are used to not feeling completely needed in every group. We have watched as casters and melee have taken all the kills and lead all the kill counts since the beginning of the game. So, now that casters rule the day, just sit back and relax. We promise you still have a use, we still need the meat shield. We still need you to shield block a door while the casters put down a firewall and rangers use manyshot from a distance. Clerics never have to worry about it so I leave them out of it.

[Taojeff]

And Devs are working on changing that.

It is still trivial. Compared to the loot acquired, death is still not such a deterent.

[Mercules]

NO! Healing is damage recovery. Mitigation is avoiding, redirecting, or preventing damage from occurring in the first place.

We've gone this route before. Healing is damage mitigation, a very poor form of it.