Let us do that math people

[Josh]

if your fighter isn't doing enough damage use a vorpal since they're a dime a dozen.

What server are you on where this is true? Let me know so I can make a toon there.

[Mad_Bombardier]

What server are you on where this is true? Let me know so I can make a toon there.

Argonnessen. But, I'd say a full quarter of what's available is Dwarven Axes (with half of those being rr:Halfling). So, make a UMD Dwarven Axe user on Argonnessen. You can even dual wield them!

[MysticTheurge]

Argonnessen. But, I'd say a full quarter of what's available is Dwarven Axes (with half of those being rr:Halfling). So, make a UMD Dwarven Axe user on Argonnessen. You can even dual wield them!

Hmm, dwarven ranger with oversized TWF here I come!

But whether to take levels in rogue or bard for the UMD...

[EinarMal]

Hmm, dwarven ranger with oversized TWF here I come!

But whether to take levels in rogue or bard for the UMD...

Make a TWF Dwarf Battle Bard, I have a Drow version and it is great fun....

[redoubt]

You do not need a melee for that function... any class can block that door. Thus a cleric, rogue, bard or even another caster are totally capable of blocking that door... since you're grabbing the agro anyway within a second... I ran Trial by fire on my then level eight wizard in a 3 person group... the other two people played a level 9 bard and a level 11 rogue... how did we do it? They blocked the door ... I ran in to pull the mob and back out as they stop at the other two players standing in thier way and then nuked the mob... melee is uneeded for that tactic. Thus if Turbine removed the melee classes entirely from the game caster tactics and player strategies would remain unchanged.

cleric, rogue, bard are all melees are they not? And yes, my caster can even block a door, but he doesn't have the AC, HP or evasion to survive the nuking coming from the bad guys on the other side.

By the way... are you saying we should get rid of melees? I wasn't, but you're argueing against me, so I'm a bit confused aparently.

[Mercules]

Argonnessen. But, I'd say a full quarter of what's available is Dwarven Axes (with half of those being rr:Halfling). So, make a UMD Dwarven Axe user on Argonnessen. You can even dual wield them!

Dang it... send some of those over to Ghallanda, my Dwarven Rogue would grab one for sure. Maybe I'll have to pay to transfer him, and then transfer him back.

[redoubt]

This is true and is by design... due to the fact that DnD has a DM and Initiative... while DDO does not. The problem is that the power checks are not in place thus a certain number of classes become less significant while others more efficient at completing the goals.

Personally I have no answers for you... I will tell you what I truely am seeing happening around me in game... I see more and more arcane classes being made and played. Those melee who do play lately are there more for flavor and less for function, they hold the nicer loot usually pulled by peoples arcanes but are brought out to play less frequently. In my guild of 200 of the 50 active players it are the sorc's and wizards which are getting played more and more among the character classes... more and more people who's first characters were melee are building and playing arcane and divine casting classes more often. Eventually I assume many of the older melee may be shelved indefinately until the next cap. What complicates matters more is the fact that people run the same content over and over... it's a rehash of old content. We've run every quest, we know what's there, role playing is not the idea... loot takes the place of it eventually... it's the way you improve a capped build. The fastest, quickest most efficient way of getting the loot is the route taken. Thus if it's not a raid you'll see less diversity among a party grow more and more.

Yeah i have all 7 char slots full, but my two mains are my ranger/rogue and my sorc. But the last couple weeks I've been building a new melee str based bard and having a lot of fun with him. He's level 8 so far and load of fun to play (and he does not do offensive casting.) Just a data point that not everyone is rerolling new casters. In fact the last to casters I started, I've deleted.

[redoubt]

Oh I forgot to mention this does not even factor in that the caster needs to conserve his man and pick his spells in an intelligent way instead of just going for DPS and being able to get his spells back constantly like in DDO.

Melee by far outdamage casters of a course of an adventure. Casters will always be able to outdamage a single enemy with instant kills (barring spell resistance or immunities) then melee, but overall melee will do more damage over time...not so in DDO.

umm... right. Melees have unlimited ability to do damage. So why are you asking to nerf casters?

[redoubt]

Actually, it has been throughout human culture that the meek inherit the earth... and thus shows in it's myths. ie.) greek... It was Thesius, Odyseous, Jason who were the heros overcoming the grave odds against the supernatural, mere men. Ever read sagas -Beowulf by chance? Was not Arthur, a mere boy to become King and bring a peace throughout the land?, Saint George slew the dragon... then comes tolkien centuries later and a mere hobit destroys the ring Gandolf cannot bring himself to even entrust himself with. Point being, myth had always played the human endeavor to overcome all supernatural forces as a means of inspiration for us to follow.

Getting rid of the kill count does not change the results... people know who is doing what without the kill counter. That in itself is where the problem rises.

I disagree. Consider the following example. Three characters line up in a door way. A bard, a fighter and a barbarian (sounds like the opener of a bad joke...lol) Anyway... the door opens and the mobs come toward us. The barb steps forward and begins swinging. This causing the mobs to stop short of the doorway and the bard and the fighter cannot reach the mobs to help do damage without also leaving the doorway.

Why would someone do this? I propose this type of action is done because the player who steps foward is watching the kill count. I back that up by saying the farther ahead my bard is in the kill count the more often the "dps" class guys steps out in front of my bard. When I lay back and play more "traditional" bard and focus more on healing and buffing than dps or when the "dps" classes are doing a good job and are naturally ahead in the kill count there are less stupid moves taking place.

You follow me on that one?

Without the kill counter you must make your own decision on whether or not you are contributing adequately to the group. So must everyone else. Since the kill counter is the only stat for comparison (thus leaving out hp heals, mobs mezzed etc) it causes people to act stupidly.

[redoubt]

(optional) steal the key = 15xp
(optional) find the secret chamber = 10xp
(optional) speak with grandpill = 25xp
(optional) disable the traps = +2% per trap

Kill torg and his minions = 5000 xp

Good point Capt. Adjusting the xp reward would go a long way toward making class and skills more "useful".

If in a quest worth 10k xp only 5k was from completing the "kill" portion, 2k for traps, 2k for convincing npc Bob to help you instead of killing him, and 1k for finding hidden object xxx.

Well, I think things would be a lot different around here. Might be fun.

[Emili]

cleric, rogue, bard are all melees are they not? And yes, my caster can even block a door, but he doesn't have the AC, HP or evasion to survive the nuking coming from the bad guys on the other side.

By the way... are you saying we should get rid of melees? I wasn't, but you're argueing against me, so I'm a bit confused aparently.

Actually, I am making a point... You can bloke the door with anything... they do not need Ac, evasion, or Hp. Where do you think the agro is the minute the killing caster starts to Nuke? If you think it's on the people at the door you're wrong... ie.) I did Trial by fire on elite with my then level 8 wizrad along with a level 11 rogue and a level 9 bard... they bloked the door, I ran in and got the agro ran back out and then proceded to nuke the mob as they walked up to my firends blocking the door... occasionally I hid behind a stalagmite to heal myself up. You know what they had very little healing to do for themselves since all the agro was on me... Latter on we did it in a three caster group... no problems. In fact did you happen to know ... If you take a level 14 caster with 170hp and a mere 30ac, toss resists on it, toss blur, displacement, stoneskin... what do you suppose that does for the characters survivability? What do you think the equivalent unbuffed melee is on terms fo survivability? let's see? 30ac is not much but half the possibility to hit it by half for blur, then somemore for blur... then sub DR for stoneskin... then add some hp for greater heroism? Toss on every resist? You can see ... a 14th level caster is as easily as sturdy as some high survivable melee.

My point is just that... the melee character in your example could have been any other class just as efficiently. My point is the melee classes are in actuality unefficient class...

Now do not get me wrong ... my melee I adore, I've built melee since beta, I've plenty of them and good ones at that. I've two fighters, a pally, a barbarian, a bard, a ranger, a cleric, a ranger10/rogue4 and but one wizard - all capped. I've solo'd quests before on every toon... however If I want something done efficiently, easily... it is the last toon I built who btw has not a lick of raid loot nor uber gear the rest of them have - my wizard! She's an easy button. Here's what I'm getting at, versitility, flexibility, defense, offense... all that comes in a very neat little package - (spells and mana to back it up).

Now I point out the arguement... why some people cry nerf or inbalance or whatever, the arguement of the thread. How does one justify thier fun? Is it in thier build... is it in the group... is it in the loot? It's in feeling like they're a part of something. It's not by way of the kill counter, it's by way of feeling they're playing some part to getting to the end of the goal, It's being of some significance. Like I stated you're going to see less and less viable uses for the melee classes and moreso in the casting classes as the levels increase - afterall they get more spells and more mana - compared to a feat or class ability 100sp and 5-6 new spells are far more versitile in a toon.

[Emili]

I disagree. Consider the following example. Three characters line up in a door way. A bard, a fighter and a barbarian (sounds like the opener of a bad joke...lol) Anyway... the door opens and the mobs come toward us. The barb steps forward and begins swinging. This causing the mobs to stop short of the doorway and the bard and the fighter cannot reach the mobs to help do damage without also leaving the doorway.

Why would someone do this? I propose this type of action is done because the player who steps foward is watching the kill count. I back that up by saying the farther ahead my bard is in the kill count the more often the "dps" class guys steps out in front of my bard. When I lay back and play more "traditional" bard and focus more on healing and buffing than dps or when the "dps" classes are doing a good job and are naturally ahead in the kill count there are less stupid moves taking place.

You follow me on that one?

Without the kill counter you must make your own decision on whether or not you are contributing adequately to the group. So must everyone else. Since the kill counter is the only stat for comparison (thus leaving out hp heals, mobs mezzed etc) it causes people to act stupidly.

Oh, a well built arcane who knows the quest... has the power to decide if he wishes to hold back his casting of dps or insta-death for the lue of CC for he and the rest of the party... If he so decided and he wanted he does not need the others there at all, maybe for a slight bit of support. This is the point I was making. I've heard so many a melee yell! - hey stop it - refering to disintigrates, fireballs, fod or enervation/pk as they ran towards the mob to engage it... naturally when I'm that caster I abliege, but I do know quite a few others who would not. The big question is are you going to tell them to play nicely with others? Is that your solution?

[Attomic]

No offense to the melee-loving people out there but what do you expect? Move, hack, swing, jump, move, move jump swing....

BORING.

You can't even self-buff, just run around and hit an "attack" key. (you in teh general not the singular)

Of course melee is going to get boring....it IS boring. It amazes me that there are people whose focus in the game is melee, because it's just so stale....

Melee? Boring? Since when is it "boring" to beat the snot out of monsters right in their ugly faces? Man, that's the best PART of the game.

Anyone, on the original topic, my basic answer is: so? Nuking casters can unleash the wrath of the gods. Yeah, and? At higher levels, casters have caught up with and are passing melee in terms of potential damage. This changes my enjoyment of the game how, exactly?

Point: it makes no difference. If casters are so all-supreme as some seem to think and melees are "suffering" thereby, I suppose the slew of invites my melee characters almost always get when I'm in-game and ungrouped is just a series of coincidental mistakes. So this "issue" is a non-issue.

Next?

[Taojeff]

umm... right. Melees have unlimited ability to do damage. So why are you asking to nerf casters?

I guess you missed the whole point of that, I said its backwards in DDO.

[Taojeff]

Melee? Boring? Since when is it "boring" to beat the snot out of monsters right in their ugly faces? Man, that's the best PART of the game.

Anyone, on the original topic, my basic answer is: so? Nuking casters can unleash the wrath of the gods. Yeah, and? At higher levels, casters have caught up with and are passing melee in terms of potential damage. This changes my enjoyment of the game how, exactly?

Point: it makes no difference. If casters are so all-supreme as some seem to think and melees are "suffering" thereby, I suppose the slew of invites my melee characters almost always get when I'm in-game and ungrouped is just a series of coincidental mistakes. So this "issue" is a non-issue.

Next?

I see it everyday, yeah I get invites, but you would really need to not be paying attention to what is going on to see that melee is becoming more obsolete. Well they are not obsolete unless u compare with casters.

[redoubt]

Actually, I am making a point... You can bloke the door with anything... they do not need Ac, evasion, or Hp. Where do you think the agro is the minute the killing caster starts to Nuke? If you think it's on the people at the door you're wrong... ie.) I did Trial by fire on elite with my then level 8 wizrad along with a level 11 rogue and a level 9 bard... they bloked the door, I ran in and got the agro ran back out and then proceded to nuke the mob as they walked up to my firends blocking the door... occasionally I hid behind a stalagmite to heal myself up. You know what they had very little healing to do for themselves since all the agro was on me... Latter on we did it in a three caster group... no problems. In fact did you happen to know ... If you take a level 14 caster with 170hp and a mere 30ac, toss resists on it, toss blur, displacement, stoneskin... what do you suppose that does for the characters survivability? What do you think the equivalent unbuffed melee is on terms fo survivability? let's see? 30ac is not much but half the possibility to hit it by half for blur, then somemore for blur... then sub DR for stoneskin... then add some hp for greater heroism? Toss on every resist? You can see ... a 14th level caster is as easily as sturdy as some high survivable melee.

I was thinking along the lines of the door in part of Cult of the Six. You even have to buff the snot out of the tanks standing in the door. There are tons of mephits and casters throwing AOE and everyone gets hit.

My point is just that... the melee character in your example could have been any other class just as efficiently. My point is the melee classes are in actuality unefficient class...

Inefficient, I think is the wrong word. They are different. I've been in quests where the melees are so good that only one of six mobs is still standing by the time I'm finished casting a disco ball on my sorc. I've been in quests where my caster is having to use his puncture daggers because the melees can't figure out who to attack at all, let alone first.

I believe you are using the word "efficient" to mean fast. Yes there are quests that casters can do faster. But there are also quest that melee can do faster. Melee are actually efficient because they are not using a depleating resource for their damage. Think in terms of miles per gallon. Melee get infinate damage per weapon. Casters do not.

Thanks for the civil debate.

[MysticTheurge]

I think one of the problems we're seeing is that melee characters aren't able to fill one of their most important roles effectively.

Looking forward to 4th edition again, Fighters and Paladins are "defenders." From what I've read, this largely means that they have abilities that help them protect their allies. Some of this might be stuff like paladin auras, but a lot of it sounds like it's going to be things that make it hard for enemies to disengage from fighters and defenders. There's a whole section in Wizards Presents: Races and Classes about how "fighters are sticky" which explains how, once you engage a fighter (or he engages you) it becomes hard to get away.

Even in 3rd edition, melee classes play this role to a degree. Especially at high levels it becomes important for melee characters to be able to keep enemies away from the "squishier" characters like the spellcasters.

But the thing is, DDO doesn't have any of the things that make this possible, and adds several things that make it even worse.

No AoOs means that things can just run away from melee with impunity.

No tactical battle-grid means that it's really difficult to be sure that you're actually blocking the right area.

Odd system glitches mean stuff like kobolds walking over characters can happen.

I realize many of these things are things that can't be implemented in DDO because of the difference in the nature of the game from D&D. But, some of them could be fixed (i.e. enemies walking over you) and more of them could be implemented in a way that keeps to the spirit of what they accomplish without requiring a tactical game.

For example, AoOs. We don't generate actual AoOs in DDO because it's almost impossible to know when/how you'd do it. Without a grid, you can't look and see where you should be moving to avoid AoOs. Randomly getting hit while you're running would be frustrating and annoying. Plus the one-hit-per-swing paradigm of DDO frowns on "hits" that don't coincide with you actually initiating a swing with your weapon. But can't we do something that would discourage just running past enemies (be they PC or NPC)? What if you generate an AoO of sorts, when you normally would, but instead of dealing damage it applies a short-duration penalty to-hit and AC?

As for defending by "body-blocking" (so to speak), what if, as your BAB increased, you actually blocked enemy movement across a wider space, meaning more fighter-y characters could provide better blocking than non-fighter-y characters.

I know it's not the most exciting role ever (and 4th edition does seem to be looking to change that with fighter powers), but "defending" is one of the important things that fighter-types do in D&D and it's pretty hard for them to do it in DDO.

(And yes, I realize intimidate allows you to do this some, but I don't find a single method to do this to be acceptable as the only solution. Multiple kinds of characters can fill out the "defender" role in D&D, and I'd like to see that happen in DDO. Not to mention that intimidate isn't even a class skill for paladins, in what has to be one of the most absurd cases of "We'll copy it directly from D&D and disregard the other drastic changes we've made to what that means.")

[Sutek]

I was just thinking, in PnP casters DO NOT out damage moderately equipped fighters if I am correct.

Moderately equiped fighter with a 22 str, +3 weapon, and Specialization at level 14 would get 4 attacks if I remember right, using a great axe you would get 1.5 times strength with power attack. This is a style used by many dps builds in DDO btw, the two-handed axe style etc.

So 1d12(avg 6) +8 str, +3 weapon, +4 spec x 4 =84

Caster level 12 12d6 = average 36

Hmmmmmm

See what I am getting at.

Casters were never meant to take out huge groups of mobs unless they were low hd mobs. In fact, you almost never see room clearing fireballs in PnP except at lower level with low HD mobs.

Casters in DDO are drunk on power, quit your whining and except a nerf for the balance of the game.

This isn't pen and paper. If you want to play pen and paper go do so.

[Aspenor]

Melee? Boring? Since when is it "boring" to beat the snot out of monsters right in their ugly faces? Man, that's the best PART of the game.

Sorry man, but for me right-clicking repeatedly and strategically placing my character and hitting the intimidate button just isn't all that exciting.

[Borror0]

I have, thats how I know its unbalanced, its too easy. Playing a new caster is no fun, takes no real skill, and takes the fun out of the adventure for all the other players save other casters.

You have not been in the same PuGs as me..

Yes, if you're skilled and geared, you're really powerful. Yes, melees need more firepower.

Find solutions, just don't whine.
Nerf is never the way to go, never.