Let us do that math people

[CrimsonEagle]

*Looks at dead horse. Grabs club and starts beating it*

Will there ever be balance in this game? Probably not.

There is one thing that allows this game to become unbalanced. I have said it before, and I will say it again.

Static Dungeons.

There are so many things that have been said in opposition to what the op stated that are true, yet there is much left unsaid.

In D&D, how many times did we run into hoards of monsters nearly EVERY STEP OF THE QUEST?

Never, at least not that I can remember.

More importantly, and more to the point, how many times in D&D did we run the same quest 5 times....10 times.....20 times or more? Each quest with the exact same layout, same monsters, same places?

Do NOT judge any form of power imbalance between the characters unless you are judging on the first, or if you are slow like me, second time through a given quest with a group who is also brand new to the quest.

THIS is the only true way to judge the balance between the characters. The first run through a quest, do the casters kill everything? Is it normally an equal kill count? Do the fighters/DPS builds lead in the kill count? Is there multiple deaths due to lack of knowledge? (Gee, I guess I shouldn't have pulled that leaver eh?)

In DDO, just as in D&D, the caster is the more powerful type of character to play. This FACT (as has been proven by MT, among others) is compounded dramatically by the fact that after running the quest a certain number of times, the caster knows what to expect, what to do, and where to do it. Because the casters are naturally more powerful, AND the know the dungeon intimately, they are able to take a very tough quest and make it into a cake walk. (Yes, all classes benefit from intimate knowledge of the instance, but casters are able to exploit this to there advantage in a much more dramatic way.)

In all honesty, I do not feel that there will ever be "true" balance in this game as long as there are static instances. As you take away from one class and give to another, people will just find other ways to EXPLOIT their intimate knowledge of any quest.

If there is any real weakness to this game, this is it. Until they find a way to implement random dungeons the true D&D spirit will never be found.

Rather than beg them for petty things such as nerfing ANY class, leave things as they are now and beg them to put a team dedicated to figuring out a way to implement random dungeons.

Yep. A tall order for them to fill, I know.

CrimsonEagle.

[Taojeff]

Forget kill count, that is not what people are seeing, it is barely getting a swing in as the mobs just die left and right from insta kill spells or fry in firewalls.

You think they fell down a bit only in making anything other than "kill" quests? That is the understatement of the year, of course it is only the 1st!

Again if melee DPS killing isn't possible at high levels then this game is in serious trouble without balancing. Many people like to do that period. It is irrelevant at that point whether or not people think that is exactly like 3.5 PnP is.

exactly, what is happening is that for a great majority of people the game is becoming simply not fun anymore. What are they going to do again? Ignore the problem and have another server merge. They have to either expand what the quests are about, or balance the classes if they are going to keep having everything kill-centric.

[Aspenor]

Im pretty sure people are leaving cuz the game is getting boring, not because casters and melee are imbalanced.

[Hvymetal]

Im pretty sure people are leaving cuz the game is getting boring, not because casters and melee are imbalanced.

Honestly, playing a melee the last two mods is pretty darn boring....

[Taojeff]

Im pretty sure people are leaving cuz the game is getting boring, not because casters and melee are imbalanced.

Well, melee play has been making the game get boring for many people who love the hack-slash feel of the game. Sure I get a kick out of nuking stuff with my caster, but its not nearly challenging compared to melee groups.

Turbine has got to give us melee guys some new tricks to play with

[Aspenor]

Honestly, playing a melee the last two mods is pretty darn boring....

No offense to the melee-loving people out there but what do you expect? Move, hack, swing, jump, move, move jump swing....

BORING.

You can't even self-buff, just run around and hit an "attack" key. (you in teh general not the singular)

Of course melee is going to get boring....it IS boring. It amazes me that there are people whose focus in the game is melee, because it's just so stale....

[Hvymetal]

Well, melee play has been making the game get boring for many people who love the hack-slash feel of the game. Sure I get a kick out of nuking stuff with my caster, but its not nearly challenging compared to melee groups.

Turbine has got to give us melee guys some new tricks to play with

Agreed, although I have a Wizard and I do like to play him sometimes, I really enjoy the way combat works (especially w/ semi-squishey Rogues), combat is what hooked me and sorry but if my enjoyment of the game comes down to "maybe" getting groups and blocking doorways, ect. I won't be staying too much longer afterwards....

[Aspenor]

Well, melee play has been making the game get boring for many people who love the hack-slash feel of the game. Sure I get a kick out of nuking stuff with my caster, but its not nearly challenging compared to melee groups.

Turbine has got to give us melee guys some new tricks to play with

New tricks? Like what? Things that aren't in the rulebook??

Nobody is forcing you to run with multiple sorcs or wizards, you can stock a party with 4 fighters a cleric and a buffbot sorc/wiz if you want to play that way.

Please stop trying to force your playstyle on others.

[EinarMal]

No offense to the melee-loving people out there but what do you expect? Move, hack, swing, jump, move, move jump swing....

BORING.

You can't even self-buff, just run around and hit an "attack" key. (you in teh general not the singular)

Of course melee is going to get boring....it IS boring. It amazes me that there are people whose focus in the game is melee, because it's just so stale....

There is a lot more going on than that when you throw in tactics feats, clickies etc... A lot of people as well play hybrid melee builds like Bards, Battle Clerics, Battle Wizards, that still do most of the *work* via melee DPS. Those type of builds in my opinion are the most hectic and fun builds out there. So, I think you are oversimplifying things a bit.

[EinarMal]

New tricks? Like what? Things that aren't in the rulebook??

Nobody is forcing you to run with multiple sorcs or wizards, you can stock a party with 4 fighters a cleric and a buffbot sorc/wiz if you want to play that way.

Please stop trying to force your playstyle on others.

I would like new tricks like more feats and "prestige" enhancements, not sure if that is what he meant. There are plenty of ways to add power and stay within the rules.

[Aspenor]

There is a lot more going on than that when you throw in tactics feats, clickies etc... A lot of people as well play hybrid melee builds like Bards, Battle Clerics, Battle Wizards, that still do most of the *work* via melee DPS. Those type of builds in my opinion are the most hectic and fun builds out there. So, I think you are oversimplifying things a bit.

But I don't really see anything here that takes those builds into account. "Battlemages" throw firewalls and swing a honkin' greataxe in the middle of it, not all that different from what a DPS sorc does. Don't get me wrong, those are high maintenance builds, I have one of my own in a TWF drow fashion.

However, when I'm playing my TWF drow spellsword, I'm not sitting there thinking "sheesh I am so underpowered compared to these pure sorcerors."

In fact I'm usually running around using wounding weapons, shattermantle weapons, cursespewers, and various other weaponry that make death come about much more quickly for the monsters, even if I'm not doing insane DPS.

It's pretty clear to me that the OP plays *nearly* exclusively fighters and other classes with no ability to self-buff or be self-sufficient. Maybe it upset him that a DPS sorc stood up for himself and said his SP aren't for spending on unnecessary buffs for somebody else, I don't really know. On my pure fighter, I don't expect buffs. I don't really need them that much, anyway, AC+HP+saves make for solid dependability that will outlive squishes more often than not. I find it highly amusing to stand over a bleeding out caster laughing, and then save him with a healers kit.

[Mercules]

Wow... this is simple... the math is wrong.

Level 14 Wizard in PnP

Maximized Fireball 14D6 = 84, 42 if saved against it.

Level 14 Fighter = according to you 63 damage, should he hit.


Except the caster is throwing the Fireball at numerous monsters likely damaging them all. His damage would be based on how many monsters he can arrange to be hit by the Fireball, 20' radius offers a lot of chances for hits.

Ok.. so we will focus on ONE target for both.

Disintigrate 28D6 = 98, 5d6 if saved = 17.5

Wizard is STILL doing more damage. The drawback is that he can only do this X number of times before he needs to rest, while the Fighter and do his damage round after round after round after round.

I think what is artificially inflating the value of spells is the endless mana. Capped casters can just recall to regain mana and many of them DO. That check and balance is removed from casting thus making them seem over powered. THAT is one thing we should be focusing on.

The other thing we should be focusing on is the fact that you can Maximize-Extend-Empower a Firewall. A level 14 Wizard should be able to either Maximize or Empower+Extend a Firewall not do all three in fact you should NEVER be able to do all three. Level 10 spells do not exist and that is Level 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 10. That is the other issue.

[Mercules]

Well, melee play has been making the game get boring for many people who love the hack-slash feel of the game. Sure I get a kick out of nuking stuff with my caster, but its not nearly challenging compared to melee groups.

Turbine has got to give us melee guys some new tricks to play with

Why? Most melee don't use the ones they already gave them. I can't remember the last time I saw a melee not played by myself or one of my close friends use Intimidate, Sunder, or half a dozen other helpful abilities. Trip? Occasionally but rare. Stunning Blow? Even more rare.

[MysticTheurge]

Move, hack, swing, jump, move, move jump swing....

BORING.

New tricks? Like what? Things that aren't in the rulebook??

Yes.

Yes, it is boring. And, yes, they should add things that aren't in the core, third edition rulebook.

4th edition clearly understands that the 3rd edition fighter, and even to a degree other 3rd edition melee characters, were/are boring. This is why, in 4th edition, "everyone gets powers."

A fighter's "powers" may not be spells, but they still have a variety of things they can do per day, per encounter or at will, just like wizards, clerics and everyone else will have in 4th edition.

If DDO wants a 3rd edition source for "fighter powers" they ought to pick up Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords.

[Tanka]

If DDO wants a 3rd edition source for "fighter powers" they ought to pick up Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords.

Don't get my hopes up, MT.

[Shaamis]

Heh - yeah, it's all about the personal preference. I know people who are casters, pure and simple - they like support or nuking or death from a distance ("Ha ha, didn't see THAT coming, didja?"). I know people (myself included) who are equally purely and simply melee - they like being meat shields, dealing death right in the enemy's face ("You! I've had enough of you! Sit down and shut UP!"). And then there are people who equally enjoy both.

The trick in this game is figuring out what works best for you and your friends. Sure, in some dungeons, particular party builds are more EASILY effective, but how fun and satisfying is it to take a suboptimal party makeup right down the throat of higher odds and beating the snot out of it, or even just squeaking through to the end? I enjoy taking my fighter right to the door, popping cleave / great cleave and just mowin' 'em down. I also enjoy running around and smacking a whole bunch of high-powered monsters, then running around with their aggro like my head's on fire and my *** is catchin' so that our boomsticks-with-legs can nuke the site from orbit. I even enjoy when a dungeon is a caster's paradise and all I'm able to do is put that stumpy dwarven body between the bad guys and our gang. It's ALL good.

The only balance is what WE make.

We need more people that use this logic, and think "CLERICS are the class for me!"

Clerics are nice to have in a group, but sometimes, it's like trying to pull teeth from a tiger, to get one in your group.....

[Raithe]

No offense to the melee-loving people out there but what do you expect? Move, hack, swing, jump, move, move jump swing....

BORING.

I like playing my melee characters (granted they both can either use scrolls or cast spells) equally to playing my generalists or casters. One is a strength-based, spring attack, improved trip, CE & shield mastery swashbuckler that uses scimitars. He doesn't awe anyone with his DPS power, but man is it fun tripping clerics and whacking on them. The other is a rangerish (ranger12/fighter2) type character who can chose between defensive mode (w/ higher AC than my fighter), single weapon melee, two weapon melee, or multi-shot ranged. It's interesting deciding which mode is needed when.

What I really like to play is part of a team, however. Any group of characters that play as a team have more fun and more success in DDO, IMO, and 5 casters and a cleric don't usually make the best team. Adequate, sure. Sometimes maybe even the best... but usually not.

[JD2134]

You dont see caster casting firewall and fire ball in the same room as the group cause in PnP everyone takes damage from a fireball and the firewall. However in this game AOE spell only hurt the enemy and not the party

[Westerner]

The argument that classes are "different" is not sufficient.

Every class should have an important role to play.

On most top level content, it feels like non-casters are unimportant.

Yes, I can play a support role with my melee, but the party would do better with another caster.

[Emili]

No offense to the melee-loving people out there but what do you expect? Move, hack, swing, jump, move, move jump swing....

BORING.

You can't even self-buff, just run around and hit an "attack" key. (you in teh general not the singular)

Of course melee is going to get boring....it IS boring. It amazes me that there are people whose focus in the game is melee, because it's just so stale....

To be honest even casters are stale because anyone can press an insta-death button so easily from a distance... I have stated it before though it's in building a character where the only fun lies in the game. The game however is broke in so many areas... the quests are all similar... they are redundant... every feat is not a viable one... every class is not a viable one. The largest didfference between DnD and DDO is you've a DM to make x feat useful, x class useful, an ever changing story line unhold to keep things interesting... in DDO you need to neutralize or kill the red named at the end.