Let us do that math people

[Aspenor]

Dude, Tao, man, seriously.

Get over the kill counts.

And keep this in one thread.

DDO cannot balance perfectly around DnD rules due to being a realtime MMO and not turn based. Monsters have more hit points and are quite numerous, and there are more encounters between rests in DDO than in PnP.

You're trying real hard for a nerf to casters, why don't you try something constructive like come up with quest ideas that make melee more desireable.

Frankly I don't know what you expect, a fighter is a tank and a caster is heavy artillery and tactical bombing. You hold the enemy at bay with one, and you decimate them with the other.

Please just get over this and realize there's more to DDO than a kill count.

[Hendrik]

LIES! Lies, **** you!

Thx for the giggle Sword.

[Shrazkil]

Dude, Tao, man, seriously.

Get over the kill counts.

And keep this in one thread.

DDO cannot balance perfectly around DnD rules due to being a realtime MMO and not turn based. Monsters have more hit points and are quite numerous, and there are more encounters between rests in DDO than in PnP.

You're trying real hard for a nerf to casters, why don't you try something constructive like come up with quest ideas that make melee more desireable.

Frankly I don't know what you expect, a fighter is a tank and a caster is heavy artillery and tactical bombing. You hold the enemy at bay with one, and you decimate them with the other.

Please just get over this and realize there's more to DDO than a kill count.

Seconded.

Op's Threads often come across as that rich kid you know, who gets furious and stomps his feet, because someone down the street got a newer car.

[Raithe]

Caster level 12 12d6 = average 36

Disintegrate can be cast by a level 12 caster, and on a failed fort save does 24d6 points of damage that averages to 84. The caster can also have a feat (kind of like greater weapon specialization) that can maximize a fireball for 10x6 (60) damage, or empower it for 1.5 x 10d6 (average 52.5) points of damage. Both empowered and maximized versions can strike several (2-16+) targets on a single cast.

Having played my fighter (the only capped character I have that doesn't have 1750 favor yet) a lot recently, I can say that there are definitely some things broken about this game. These include:

1) Paladin/rogues. I have a huge problem with allowing paladins to also be scoundrels (= rogue) in a roleplaying game. I don't really have a problem with paladin auras stacking on top of divine grace, and I definitely don't have a problem with level 2 rogues having evasion. Combining the 2, without any sort of roleplaying check on the actions of the "paladin," makes the game ridiculous. Fighters and barbarians are extremely weak in comparison, and pure rogues and rangers are significantly worse at doing many things rogues and rangers are supposed to be good at.

2) Charm spells. They shouldn't be just as powerful as domination spells.

3) Area of Effect spells. They should hurt friendlies and mobs should try to avoid them.

4) Recalling. It probably needs to mean that you can't get back in the existing instance - every quest instance should probably have a mechanic similar to the Stormreaver raid.

5) Dungeon design. Almost all dungeons are linear in design (to maximize the time spent completing them, I guess?) and the tactics that can be used to complete them are very limited. Some dungeons have far too many shrines (I might suggest removing all shrines from all dungeons, and auto-resting between quest parts or upon completion of a part).

Note that caster damage doesn't show up in this list.

[BlueLightBandit]

Disintegrate can be cast by a level 12 caster, and on a failed fort save does 24d6 points of damage that averages to 84. The caster can also have a feat (kind of like greater weapon specialization) that can maximize a fireball for 10x6 (60) damage, or empower it for 1.5 x 10d6 (average 52.5) points of damage. Both empowered and maximized versions can strike several (2-16+) targets on a single cast.

Having played my fighter (the only capped character I have that doesn't have 1750 favor yet) a lot recently, I can say that there are definitely some things broken about this game. These include:

1) Paladin/rogues. I have a huge problem with allowing paladins to also be scoundrels (= rogue) in a roleplaying game. I don't really have a problem with paladin auras stacking on top of divine grace, and I definitely don't have a problem with level 2 rogues having evasion. Combining the 2, without any sort of roleplaying check on the actions of the "paladin," makes the game ridiculous. Fighters and barbarians are extremely weak in comparison, and pure rogues and rangers are significantly worse at doing many things rogues and rangers are supposed to be good at.

2) Charm spells. They shouldn't be just as powerful as domination spells.

3) Area of Effect spells. They should hurt friendlies and mobs should try to avoid them.

4) Recalling. It probably needs to mean that you can't get back in the existing instance - every quest instance should probably have a mechanic similar to the Stormreaver raid.

4) Dungeon design. Almost all dungeons are linear in design (to maximize the time spent completing them, I guess?) and the tactics that can be used to complete them are very limited. Some dungeons have far too many shrines (I might suggest removing all shrines from all dungeons, and auto-resting between quest parts or upon completion of a part).

Note that caster damage doesn't show up in this list.

Raithe... this kind of actual intelligence has no place in this thread. Please take your educated and well thought out postings somewhere else, where they can be appreciated.

[Shrazkil]

Disintegrate can be cast by a level 12 caster, and on a failed fort save does 24d6 points of damage that averages to 84. The caster can also have a feat (kind of like greater weapon specialization) that can maximize a fireball for 10x6 (60) damage, or empower it for 1.5 x 10d6 (average 52.5) points of damage. Both empowered and maximized versions can strike several (2-16+) targets on a single cast.

Having played my fighter (the only capped character I have that doesn't have 1750 favor yet) a lot recently, I can say that there are definitely some things broken about this game. These include:

1) Paladin/rogues. I have a huge problem with allowing paladins to also be scoundrels (= rogue) in a roleplaying game. I don't really have a problem with paladin auras stacking on top of divine grace, and I definitely don't have a problem with level 2 rogues having evasion. Combining the 2, without any sort of roleplaying check on the actions of the "paladin," makes the game ridiculous. Fighters and barbarians are extremely weak in comparison, and pure rogues and rangers are significantly worse at doing many things rogues and rangers are supposed to be good at.

2) Charm spells. They shouldn't be just as powerful as domination spells.

3) Area of Effect spells. They should hurt friendlies and mobs should try to avoid them.

4) Recalling. It probably needs to mean that you can't get back in the existing instance - every quest instance should probably have a mechanic similar to the Stormreaver raid.

5) Dungeon design. Almost all dungeons are linear in design (to maximize the time spent completing them, I guess?) and the tactics that can be used to complete them are very limited. Some dungeons have far too many shrines (I might suggest removing all shrines from all dungeons, and auto-resting between quest parts or upon completion of a part).

Note that caster damage doesn't show up in this list.

Well thought out and stated.

As for your thoughts on paladin/rogues , beyond there not being any secondary methods to solving most missions (and that paladins are currently pretty underpowered), do keep in mind there are various other paladins. Paladin of freedom for instance requires a chaotic good alignment, and would go perfectly with rogue levels. I think alignment itself is the problem you speak of, there is no way i can think of to enforce or properly represent your alignment choices.

[Aspenor]

Well thought out and stated.

As for your thoughts on paladin/rogues , beyond there not being any secondary methods to solving most missions (and that paladins are currently pretty underpowered), do keep in mind there are various other paladins. Paladin of freedom for instance requires a chaotic good alignment, and would go perfectly with rogue levels. I think alignment itself is the problem you speak of, there is no way i can think of to enforce or properly represent your alignment choices.

Well there's also the fact that rogues can be any alignment Just because somebody imagines rogues as chaotic or evil doesn't mean they must be. A rogue can be a lawful good spy just as easily as a selfish thief.

[redoubt]

1. This is NOT pen and paper. The rules of pen and paper have no bearing here. DDO is ***BASED*** on the core rules, but like every table top game is allowed it's own has it's own variations and differences.
2. Balance is achieved by a variety of mobs with different strengths and weaknesses. Certain mobs have high saves, resistances, hit points, whatever... as was my point in saying earlier that for every maximized and empowered firewall you see I'll show you three blackbone archers and a violet slime that are immune.

Casters aren't overpowered... they have different tools than tanks do. You wouldn't try fixing a nuclear submarine with duct tape... and you wouldn't fix your ac duct with a radioactive isotope... is one "stronger" or "more powerful" than another... sure... and for every navy recruit you'll find ten plumbers that disagree with them on which one is "stronger" or "more powerful". If you want to say the plumber is wrong because the navy recruit has gone through sub school... then I'll just point out that an average plumber makes more money than an E5 with three years of nuclear training behind him... and the plumber prolly took five minutes to fill out the paperwork for his job. Now tell me who's smarter.

It's a matter of opinion and perspective. Not a matter of fact. If you like playing a caster... then play a caster. If you like playing a tank... then play a tank. If you really think they're unbalanced... then just realize that a rogue is the only character that can disable traps, and a bard is the only character that can sing songs, and a cleric is the only character that can raise dead while feebleminded, and a pallys are the only characters that are immune to fear and disease AND have lay on hands, and fighters are the only characters that have like 30 feats, and barbarians are the only characters that can get enhancements to up their will saves while raging... need I go on?

Every class is what it is because it's different. None of them are BETTER or WORSE than another... just DIFFERENT.

Another BlueLight special and so much better than Kmart. Thanks. This really should be the end of it, though we know it won't.

On to the OP:
"played PnP and DDO"... so what of those of use who don't play PnP? Do we get a vote?

And your modified numbers are still off. The other have corrected you that you get only 3 attacks. Now figure you miss on one of them. Your damage drops now to 44. The caster is level 14 so is 14*3.5=49.

Now add Raithe's comment about disintegrate: 84 from one spell versus 44 from your attacks. And that is a level 12 caster doubling the damage of a level 14 fighter. Please note, none of these are my numbers. I'm just putting together the info from all you PnP players. Seems to me that even in PnP the caster can easily out damage a fighter.... so what is the real problem here???

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I was just thinking, in PnP casters DO NOT out damage moderately equipped fighters if I am correct.

Incorrect

Moderately equiped fighter with a 22 str, +3 weapon, and Specialization at level 14 would get 4 attacks if I remember right, using a great axe you would get 1.5 times strength with power attack. This is a style used by many dps builds in DDO btw, the two-handed axe style etc.

So 1d12(avg 6) +8 str, +3 weapon, +4 spec x 4 =84

Caster level 12 12d6 = average 36

Well lets's start by wondering why you are comparing a L12 to a L14... So let's go L14 vs L14


Your math on the fighter is wrong. First off they get only 3 swings and you are assuming the highest possible damage weapon that not everyone would use. Even assuming that, you are assuming all swings hit, HIGHLY unlikely, especially with powerattack in use. With powerattack in full use you probably would only get in 2 swings succesfully, quite possibly only 1 so assuming a low AC monster:

Fighter (1d12(ave 6.5) + 8 +3 +4) x 2 = 43

Caster L14 14D6 = 49


Now of course the caster will hit multiple targets (assuming that's an AOE spell) so damage will multiply from there, and of course it will be reduced somewhat based on saves and monster resistances. The caster is also limited in casts where as the fighter can swing forever. If whatever you are fighting has a half decent AC the decision to go PowerAttack will likely mean the Fighter damage will be cut in half as they probably will only succeed on the first swing.

So at L14 there is a relative balance, fighter wins in some situations, casters in others...oh wait, just like in DDO.

Now by the time you hit L20 its no contest, in 75% of the situtation the caster will outkill...or will weaken a huge number of mobs to the point the fighters can take them on safely.

[Daevanus]

There's a very simple way to look at this....

Tanks will **** off a mob when they hit, and they can take a few (or a lot, you crazy barbarian types).

Casters will **** off LOTS of mobs.... and get greased after a hit or two (if they're lucky).

One needs the other. Casters need a tank who can slow down the mobs... and tanks need casters to speed up the carnage.


I personally don't want to spend 5 hours hacking through mobs when the caster can do it more efficently.

[redoubt]

There's a very simple way to look at this....

Tanks will **** off a mob when they hit, and they can take a few (or a lot, you crazy barbarian types).

Casters will **** off LOTS of mobs.... and get greased after a hit or two (if they're lucky).

One needs the other. Casters need a tank who can slow down the mobs... and tanks need casters to speed up the carnage.


I personally don't want to spend 5 hours hacking through mobs when the caster can do it more efficently.

Very well said.

Really, if we ditched the kill count, most of this complaining about one class being better than another would disappear, because we would be playing together to succeed rather than competing for kills.

Hmmm.... maybe I should sit back with my ranger and snipe the last hp or two from each mob and lead the kill count. That will make me the new Uber! /sarcasm off.

[Emili]

Dude, Tao, man, seriously.

Get over the kill counts.

And keep this in one thread.

DDO cannot balance perfectly around DnD rules due to being a realtime MMO and not turn based. Monsters have more hit points and are quite numerous, and there are more encounters between rests in DDO than in PnP.

You're trying real hard for a nerf to casters, why don't you try something constructive like come up with quest ideas that make melee more desireable.

Frankly I don't know what you expect, a fighter is a tank and a caster is heavy artillery and tactical bombing. You hold the enemy at bay with one, and you decimate them with the other.

Please just get over this and realize there's more to DDO than a kill count.

This is silly, I do not beilieve he's looking to nerf casters... but is looking to balance the classes. Your statement in red is just plain silly also. If it's truely designed to be that way then your saying all melee is suppose to be is bait... that is an uneeded class then as any class can serve as bait. So by your own accord... we should scrap the melee classes as they has no merrit... people's assumption that a melee is suppose to be a mild distraction is a totally simplistic view of one strategy, when there are a million more strategies which can easily replace it. Thus they fail to see the tank is an uneeded commodity - in fact it's an inefficient one. You'll get the quest finished quicker without the melee in fact.

[redoubt]

Is shield blocking a door while ranged (not just casters) attack the mobs on the other side still a valid tactic? I seem to remember this being highly popular at one point.

When I play my sorc, I love having melee's in the group. One of two thing usually happens depending on the quest:
1. the melee block for me and while I kill stuff and help keep me alive. (In this case I tend to top the kill chart.)
2. I hold everything still (dance, stone, hold etc) and the melee's kill everything. Basically, I'm keeping them alive. (I tend to have very few kills in this situation.)

Both are fun. Both are team work. The nerfs people are asking for will mean I only ever get to do option #2.

Please stop asking to take away other peoples toys and find some people you enjoy playing with and go play!

Thank you.

[Drekisen]

Point A. STOP comparing PnP D&D to DDO, it's NOT!

That's all

[Aspenor]

This is silly, I do not beilieve he's looking to nerf casters... but is looking to balance the classes. Your statement in red is just plain silly also. If it's truely designed to be that way then your saying all melee is suppose to be is bait... that is an uneeded class then as any class can serve as bait. So by your own accord... we should scrap the melee classes as they has no merrit... people's assumption that a melee is suppose to be a mild distraction is a totally simplistic view of one strategy, when there are a million more strategies which can easily replace it. Thus they fail to see the tank is an uneeded commodity - in fact it's an inefficient one. You'll get the quest finished quicker without the melee in fact.

Yes I have said that before actually but it was a joke, but in all reality what you bolded does not infer that at all. You might have read that into it, but I never stated any class was unneeded.

However, all classes are unneeded. No one class is "needed" to play DDO.

[Hendrik]

This is silly, I do not beilieve he's looking to nerf casters... but is looking to balance the classes. Your statement in red is just plain silly also. If it's truely designed to be that way then your saying all melee is suppose to be is bait... that is an uneeded class then as any class can serve as bait. So by your own accord... we should scrap the melee classes as they has no merrit... people's assumption that a melee is suppose to be a mild distraction is a totally simplistic view of one strategy, when there are a million more strategies which can easily replace it. Thus they fail to see the tank is an uneeded commodity - in fact it's an inefficient one. You'll get the quest finished quicker without the melee in fact.

If that IS the case, this is the wrong game to be doing that. DnD was created with each class having it's own strength and weakness. One class could/would supplement the others.

There is NO class balance in DnD/DDO. There cannot be. It would be a slap in the face to Gygax if DDO was to balance the classes.

[Emili]

Is shield blocking a door while ranged (not just casters) attack the mobs on the other side still a valid tactic? I seem to remember this being highly popular at one point.

When I play my sorc, I love having melee's in the group. One of two thing usually happens depending on the quest:
1. the melee block for me and while I kill stuff and help keep me alive. (In this case I tend to top the kill chart.)
2. I hold everything still (dance, stone, hold etc) and the melee's kill everything. Basically, I'm keeping them alive. (I tend to have very few kills in this situation.)

Both are fun. Both are team work. The nerfs people are asking for will mean I only ever get to do option #2.

Please stop asking to take away other peoples toys and find some people you enjoy playing with and go play!

Thank you.

You do not need a melee for that function... any class can block that door. Thus a cleric, rogue, bard or even another caster are totally capable of blocking that door... since you're grabbing the agro anyway within a second... I ran Trial by fire on my then level eight wizard in a 3 person group... the other two people played a level 9 bard and a level 11 rogue... how did we do it? They blocked the door ... I ran in to pull the mob and back out as they stop at the other two players standing in thier way and then nuked the mob... melee is uneeded for that tactic. Thus if Turbine removed the melee classes entirely from the game caster tactics and player strategies would remain unchanged.

[Aspenor]

You don't NEED any class to do any quest. You shouldn't need any particular class for any quest.

The sooner people realize that the better.

[Hendrik]

You don't NEED any class to do any quest. You shouldn't need any particular class for any quest.

The sooner people realize that the better.

You trying to tell me that I have no class Asp?!?!?

/poke Asp

[Emili]

If that IS the case, this is the wrong game to be doing that. DnD was created with each class having it's own strength and weakness. One class could/would supplement the others.

There is NO class balance in DnD/DDO. There cannot be. It would be a slap in the face to Gygax if DDO was to balance the classes.

Sure there is a balance in DnD... it's in the initiative, it's in the strengths and weaknesses of each class and it's in the DM. In PnP dnd there are no needed classes in any campaign or dungeon. In DDO due to the fact their is no DM, no initiative and no power checks in place a few classes are gods compared to the others.