Let us do that math people

[Taojeff]

I was just thinking, in PnP casters DO NOT out damage moderately equipped fighters if I am correct.

Moderately equiped fighter with a 22 str, +3 weapon, and Specialization at level 14 would get 4 attacks if I remember right, using a great axe you would get 1.5 times strength with power attack. This is a style used by many dps builds in DDO btw, the two-handed axe style etc.

So 1d12(avg 6) +8 str, +3 weapon, +4 spec x 4 =84

Caster level 12 12d6 = average 36

Hmmmmmm

See what I am getting at.

Casters were never meant to take out huge groups of mobs unless they were low hd mobs. In fact, you almost never see room clearing fireballs in PnP except at lower level with low HD mobs.

Casters in DDO are drunk on power, quit your whining and except a nerf for the balance of the game.

[MrCow]

So 1d12(avg 6) +8 str, +3 weapon, +4 spec x 4 =84

Is it fair to assume each of those 4 melee attacks hit their target? In Pen and Paper the last attack isn't likely to hit its target on things close to your level, in terms of challenge. Also, at level 14 your theoretical fighter would have three attacks. (a +14, a +9, and a +4)

Edit: You may want to have the caster's level be the same as the fighter's level (both at 14) which would cause the caster to deal 14d6 damage on a spell high enough to do such damage (average of 42 damage barring no save).

[Taojeff]

Is it fair to assume each of those 4 melee attacks hit their target? In Pen and Paper the last attack isn't likely to hit its target on things close to your level, in terms of challenge. Also, at level 14 your theoretical fighter would have three attacks. (a +14, a +9, and a +4)

Thanks for the correction,

so 63 points of damge on average if he scores 3 hits

vs. 36 for a comparable caster of the same level on average (if the mob fails its save).

Like I said....caster can damage alot of foes in PnP or destroy a small number quickly. They have never been able to outdamage melee classes, their role is more diverse. They are well overpowered in DDO.

[Warrax23]

Wait till mod 6 before posting it's pretty much an all melee MOD. Things have very high SR. OH and think about the mobs you fight in PnP your not fighting 1028304813 mobs at once, your usually fighting 2-6 so Melee is ok. Here since they have SO many mobs fighting a group at once you need some real AoE damage. If you want scaling to perfection go play Checkers or Chess... if your fighter isn't doing enough damage use a vorpal since they're a dime a dozen.

[MrCow]

Wait till mod 6 before posting it's pretty much an all melee MOD. Things have very high SR.

Module 6 with its higher presence of SR is not going to really dent the way of the nuker (which appears to be the main focus of Taojeff's issue). Wall of Fire, Cone of Cold, Ball Lightning, Acid Fog, Incendiary Cloud and Polar Ray all do wonderful amounts of damage to many of the inhabitants of the Vale of Twilight when maximized/empowered/etc. What the SR will do is inhibit the use of things like Otto's Sphere of Dancing, Flesh to Stone, Mass Hold Person, Finger of Death, and Trap the Soul meaning if you are a crowd control or instant death based caster then you will likely want to invest in spell penetration. Nuking casters have little to do to keep their build viable in the snippet of Module 6 from what we have seen.

[Litz]

Jealous of casters? Roll one, and play it. Noone should cry for nerfing casters when faced with mobs with infinate spell point pools and immunities that make no practical sense. If anything you should be crying for more powerfull melee not nerfing casters..

[Kiranselie]

You might want to reconsider your fighter example from the above posts. Like Cow said, at level 14 your only getting three attacks at a BAB of 14/9/4. So assuming that said fighter has weapon focus and greater weapon focus, and a 22 str w/ a +3 weapon, and taking the full benefit of power attack that breaks down to 18/13/8 to hit. At level appropriate mobs, you can only reliably hit with your first and second swing. So taking average damage of 6 with a greataxe your looking at 22 points of damage per attack, for a total of 44 points in the round. Now looking at a PnP Sorcerer using Delayed blast fireball your looking at 42 points of damage on average rolls. For PnP thats fine, but like Cow also said, this isnt PnP DnD. You wont encounter the sheer number of enemies in your average tabletop game that you will in this game.

[chemonz]

I guess my question would be how would you nerf casters if you could? If you return to how it was before casters were given some of the changes that improved their damage ability you return casters to the days when melees ruled and casters were little more than a buff/haste bot who spent most of the quest sitting around trying to avoid aggro.

Although I mainly play casters and do not play melee classes I do not have a problem with trying to balance things to the point where each party member has a meaningful role to play, not necessarily true balance in the sense that more PvP oriented games might strive for. I am not totally opposed to changing things a bit, possibly tweaking a thing or two.

However, I am against a change backwards because I don't want casters to have to play second fiddle to the gods of melee as we once were forced to do. I think some concrete ideas for a way forward are required and not a simple nerf request or removal of changes recently implemented. I don't have a lot of ideas really, but I am more in favor of increasing melee power somewhat, as other have mentioned, than bringing in a nerf to casters. Maybe some new enhancements, and new "greater" weapon types such as greater cursespewing, disruption, banishing etc.,

I just hope that those requesting a caster nerf keep in mind that the "old" way of doing things, when they totally ruled the roost, is not an acceptable alternative. We need something new.

[BlueLightBandit]

ENOUGH WITH THE CASTER VERSUS TANK COMPAROS ALREADY!!!

Jeebus effin christmas people.

FACT: Casters and tanks are DIFFERENT.

Period. End of story. No complex comparison involving diluted and perplexing mathematical equations needed.

For every maximized empowered firewall... I'll show you three blackbone archers and a violet slime that are immune. These comparisons are WORTHLESS. They don't add anything to the game. They don't intend to address a bug with the game. They just take up space and I cannot possibly see any reason why an intelligent person who has played both character types would want ANYTHING changed.

So quit your whining... roll a caster and play it. Then roll a tank and play it. But for the love of god... PLEASE NEVER POST ANOTHER CASTER VERSUS TANK COMPARISON AGAIN!!!

[Taojeff]

Jealous of casters? Roll one, and play it. Noone should cry for nerfing casters when faced with mobs with infinate spell point pools and immunities that make no practical sense. If anything you should be crying for more powerfull melee not nerfing casters..

I have, thats how I know its unbalanced, its too easy. Playing a new caster is no fun, takes no real skill, and takes the fun out of the adventure for all the other players save other casters.

[Taojeff]

ENOUGH WITH THE CASTER VERSUS TANK COMPAROS ALREADY!!!

Jeebus effin christmas people.

FACT: Casters and tanks are DIFFERENT.

Period. End of story. No complex comparison involving diluted and perplexing mathematical equations needed.

For every maximized empowered firewall... I'll show you three blackbone archers and a violet slime that are immune. These comparisons are WORTHLESS. They don't add anything to the game. They don't intend to address a bug with the game. They just take up space and I cannot possibly see any reason why an intelligent person who has played both character types would want ANYTHING changed.

So quit your whining... roll a caster and play it. Then roll a tank and play it. But for the love of god... PLEASE NEVER POST ANOTHER CASTER VERSUS TANK COMPARISON AGAIN!!!

I cannot see why any intelligent person, who has played both PnP and DDO, cannot understand the imbalance that casters now create.

[BlueLightBandit]

I have, thats how I know its unbalanced, its too easy. Playing a new caster is no fun, takes no real skill, and takes the fun out of the adventure for all the other players save other casters.

And yet... sitting here using basic math to illustrate a point that is oblivious to the fact that CASTERS AND TANKS ARE DIFFERENT is what... fun and exciting?

I'd rather play my bard, or my rogue, or my remote controlled submarine for that matter.

They're different. Your choices are to 1. Accept it and move on... or 2. Determine the precise variables at which the number of statistical analysis's will far exceed the intelligence in comparing casters and tanks and then provide concrete factualizations of indiscriminate numerical and statistical anomalies wholly derived from inane and yet diluted metaphysical computations involving negative imagionary numbers and multiply them by the ratio of coins per reward that the festival jester hands out to characters with 7 letters not included in the Amish dictionary in their names that turn in their coins after 7 pm on a day that does not contain those same letters.

ENOUGH ALREADY... THEY'RE DIFFERENT.

[Hvymetal]

You know, I have been arguing for game balance for awhile now. There is an imbalance between casters/melee a imbalance between Barbarians/Rest of Melee, & sadly for a long time now an imbalance between Rogues/Everybody else (the devs just hate us Rogues, I know it).

Anyways the problem is we can go around nerf this class to help balance, then nerf this class to help balance, ect., ect. ad infinium and probably never reach a balanced system.

The main problem with imbalance IMO is the question of exclusion from grouping. DDO (and D&D for that matter) is a group based game, so exclusion is a inherently bad thing. There has to be a better solution than "just roll up a _______ if you want groups".

A solution I always liked in the arguments on the bring the Rogue class some love threads was the one to make other ways to finish a quest rather than just running through and killing everything.

I am starting to think the best solution would be to expand on this idea. Put more varied quests in place that play off the strengths and weaknesses of different classes/roles. Throw in more spell resistant mobs, throw in more types of mobs that have strong resistances to certain elements (along with this I would argue to remove blanket immunities to red names and allow tactical feats to work on them again). Allow other options such as utilizing stealth to finish quests. Make skill use more important to completing objectives (or at least nice optional objectives or by making quests easier, such as the use of Diplomacy in The Crucible).

I have a feeling that if there were more quests with a variety of ways to complete them that people wouldn't worry so much about group composition and maybe could get back to what D&D is supposed to be about, having fun defeating the environment with a bunch of friends.

Anyways theres my 2cp.

[Spookydodger]

I have, thats how I know its unbalanced, its too easy. Playing a new caster is no fun, takes no real skill, and takes the fun out of the adventure for all the other players save other casters.

Most new casters I have seen find it too difficult to stay alive and give up, going back to their melee rounds.

I think it's just a different path. One with more potential, if you have the skill.

[BlueLightBandit]

I cannot see why any intelligent person, who has played both PnP and DDO, cannot understand the imbalance that casters now create.

1. This is NOT pen and paper. The rules of pen and paper have no bearing here. DDO is ***BASED*** on the core rules, but like every table top game is allowed it's own has it's own variations and differences.
2. Balance is achieved by a variety of mobs with different strengths and weaknesses. Certain mobs have high saves, resistances, hit points, whatever... as was my point in saying earlier that for every maximized and empowered firewall you see I'll show you three blackbone archers and a violet slime that are immune.

Casters aren't overpowered... they have different tools than tanks do. You wouldn't try fixing a nuclear submarine with duct tape... and you wouldn't fix your ac duct with a radioactive isotope... is one "stronger" or "more powerful" than another... sure... and for every navy recruit you'll find ten plumbers that disagree with them on which one is "stronger" or "more powerful". If you want to say the plumber is wrong because the navy recruit has gone through sub school... then I'll just point out that an average plumber makes more money than an E5 with three years of nuclear training behind him... and the plumber prolly took five minutes to fill out the paperwork for his job. Now tell me who's smarter.

It's a matter of opinion and perspective. Not a matter of fact. If you like playing a caster... then play a caster. If you like playing a tank... then play a tank. If you really think they're unbalanced... then just realize that a rogue is the only character that can disable traps, and a bard is the only character that can sing songs, and a cleric is the only character that can raise dead while feebleminded, and a pallys are the only characters that are immune to fear and disease AND have lay on hands, and fighters are the only characters that have like 30 feats, and barbarians are the only characters that can get enhancements to up their will saves while raging... need I go on?

Every class is what it is because it's different. None of them are BETTER or WORSE than another... just DIFFERENT.

[Spookydodger]

I cannot see why any intelligent person, who has played both PnP and DDO, cannot understand the imbalance that casters now create.

So if someone doesn't see it as an imbalance, they are what, then?

And remember, balance can come from far more scopes than simple damage output. You also have to look at balance within timelines in the game (end game versus early game), and which players you are talking about.

I can't make a power-meleer worth beans. But I can play a rocking caster.
Another friend is a melee-o-holic and is a god at it, but can't play casters to save his life.

There are so many more variables involved, that throwing out a simple direct comparison, and saying "Any intelligent person can see this" does nothing but serve to both cheapen the debate, intelligence, and our game that we are ALL struggling to make better.

Let's keep the dispersions out and stick to our opinions of the game and the facts. We'll be better off.

[Litz]

I have, thats how I know its unbalanced, its too easy. Playing a new caster is no fun, takes no real skill, and takes the fun out of the adventure for all the other players save other casters.

If its so easy for you then your missing your true calling in life (the fantasy one). Stop pretending to be a dwarf that smells of flat ale and pickled herring, you know your an elf. Yep wearing robes and fuzzy house slippers in cold dark dungeons while sipping a fine memnotic is your calling in life. So put away that clanky masterwork and pull out your potency item and get to work..

lol

[Attomic]

If its so easy for you then your missing your true calling in life (the fantasy one). Stop pretending to be a dwarf that smells of flat ale and pickled herring, you know your an elf. Yep wearing robes and fuzzy house slippers in cold dark dungeons while sipping a fine memnotic is your calling in life. So put away that clanky masterwork and pull out your potency item and get to work..

lol

Heh - yeah, it's all about the personal preference. I know people who are casters, pure and simple - they like support or nuking or death from a distance ("Ha ha, didn't see THAT coming, didja?"). I know people (myself included) who are equally purely and simply melee - they like being meat shields, dealing death right in the enemy's face ("You! I've had enough of you! Sit down and shut UP!"). And then there are people who equally enjoy both.

The trick in this game is figuring out what works best for you and your friends. Sure, in some dungeons, particular party builds are more EASILY effective, but how fun and satisfying is it to take a suboptimal party makeup right down the throat of higher odds and beating the snot out of it, or even just squeaking through to the end? I enjoy taking my fighter right to the door, popping cleave / great cleave and just mowin' 'em down. I also enjoy running around and smacking a whole bunch of high-powered monsters, then running around with their aggro like my head's on fire and my *** is catchin' so that our boomsticks-with-legs can nuke the site from orbit. I even enjoy when a dungeon is a caster's paradise and all I'm able to do is put that stumpy dwarven body between the bad guys and our gang. It's ALL good.

The only balance is what WE make.

[Hendrik]

There is much more to a caster then casting Firewall, Haste, PK, and FoD.

[Swordalot]

There is much more to a caster then casting Firewall, Haste, PK, and FoD.

LIES! Lies, **** you!