4 questions on Pally DPS

[Slapphappy]

I am building a pally, currently level 7. I find when I play him, fights take a long time. I have great AC and saves and plenty of hitpoints and can self-heal. But my DPS is so low it takes a while to take down the mobs. I use intim a lot and often let the party do the killing, but I am trying to improve my DPS and would like some advice. I have 16 str, but almost always use a bull str wand for +4. I use a shield and an off-hand weapon, mostly a heavy pick of pure good. I do not currently specialize in any weapon type because i don't have many feats and am pursuing the Sentinel dragonamrk chain. (Also, this toons gets all my one-handed martial bane weapons.)

Question... What are the basic principles of boosting DPS for a pally?
Question... Is power attack a useful feat for a one-hand melee toon?
Question... Should I take some fighter levels to get extra feats? If so which ones? Stun? Slice? Sap? Something else?
Question... What are the advantages of staying straight pally all the way? (It doesn't look like Pallys get a lot of perks at higher levels and the intim skill and feats from fighter levels might help.)

Thanks!

[Darth_Sizzle]

I am building a pally, currently level 7. I find when I play him, fights take a long time. I have great AC and saves and plenty of hitpoints and can self-heal. But my DPS is so low it takes a while to take down the mobs. I use intim a lot and often let the party do the killing, but I am trying to improve my DPS and would like some advice. I have 16 str, but almost always use a bull str wand for +4. I use a shield and an off-hand weapon, mostly a heavy pick of pure good. I do not currently specialize in any weapon type because i don't have many feats and am pursuing the Sentinel dragonamrk chain. (Also, this toons gets all my one-handed martial bane weapons.)

Question... What are the basic principles of boosting DPS for a pally?
Question... Is power attack a useful feat for a one-hand melee toon?
Question... Should I take some fighter levels to get extra feats? If so which ones? Stun? Slice? Sap? Something else?
Question... What are the advantages of staying straight pally all the way? (It doesn't look like Pallys get a lot of perks at higher levels and the intim skill and feats from fighter levels might help.)

Thanks!

Basically Pallys don't have very good DPS, unless you build them specifically for that (I have a DPS Pally). Since you are level 7 and have a 16 STR you didn't really build your Pally for DPS. Power attack is a useful feat for any melee character who is going for DPS, but if you are going for DPS you should also get the Improved Critical Feat. Multi-classing Isn't really advised unless you have a specific plan for you character & planned it in advance. Pure pally benefit (at this time) would really only be 4th lvl spells (Death Ward), but who knows what other things Turbine will cook up for us enhancement wise (or prestige class wise).

[bandyman1]

Good DPS is rare in a pally, I'll agree, but it's a matter of the builds most people are playing. Don't don't listen to peeps who say pally's have gimped DPS.

Start with at least a 16 Str. and your good. Drop all your stat increases into Str, and with a +6 item and a +1 tome ( no one can really call these rare anymore ) you'll have a 26 Str at levl 14. I know, sounds gimp right? But what most peeps seem to fail to grasp is that a high level pally is going to be using DF ( +3 to-hit, and damage ) in every melee. That's the equivalent of a 32 Str with every weapon, and it also stacks with bard buffs, and rage effects. If you really wanted, you could start with an 18 Str. and be the equivalent of a 34 Str. fighter ( 36 with that elusive +3 tome ), all before bard songs or rage effects.

Sure, fighters have access to weapon specializations, but it only works for one specific weapon, and I'd take much better saves, LoH's, self-buffs, and neg-effect removal over +4 damage a strike any day.

Pally's aren't going to measure up to the DPS of a barbarian. No one is. Any fighter that tells you he does, has never ran with good DPS barbs. What we do have, is increased self-sufficiency.

As far as power attack is concerned, that's a matter of personal preference. IMO, it's wasted on a sword and board fighter, but I'm not about to knock anyone for using it.

[Dexxaan]

In your case and most Paladin builds, the DPS is going to be greatly improved on the availability of Weapons to choose from as well as the weapon Type.

* 2Handing is best for Barbarians and makes a poor choice of your AC/Defensive Bonuses; unless constant healing is your thing.

* Holy Bursts of Pure Good; Greater Banes and such weapons should be in your weapon shortcuts.

IMO a Paladin build is a resilient party member, one that withstands magical and physical attacks, and finishes off the mobs after a tank or two have croaked.... Patience and Deadly Durability are your friends.....DPS can be improved, but will never be your Strength.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

I am building a pally, currently level 7. I find when I play him, fights take a long time. I have great AC and saves and plenty of hitpoints and can self-heal. But my DPS is so low it takes a while to take down the mobs. I use intim a lot and often let the party do the killing, but I am trying to improve my DPS and would like some advice. I have 16 str, but almost always use a bull str wand for +4. I use a shield and an off-hand weapon, mostly a heavy pick of pure good. I do not currently specialize in any weapon type because i don't have many feats and am pursuing the Sentinel dragonamrk chain. (Also, this toons gets all my one-handed martial bane weapons.)

Question... What are the basic principles of boosting DPS for a pally?
Question... Is power attack a useful feat for a one-hand melee toon?
Question... Should I take some fighter levels to get extra feats? If so which ones? Stun? Slice? Sap? Something else?
Question... What are the advantages of staying straight pally all the way? (It doesn't look like Pallys get a lot of perks at higher levels and the intim skill and feats from fighter levels might help.)

Thanks!

#1) Basic Principles for DPS Boosting for a Paladin:
- Divine Favor - (Level 1 Paladin Spell, granted at Paladin 4) Keep this running as much as possible
- Weapons - Slashing Weapons *tend* to be better choices for Paladins, in that they have good base damage and critical ranges, and there are more slashing weapons in the game then any other type.
- Racial Weapon Enhancements - If you are Elf, then go Longsword or Rapier and pickup the Racial Melee Attack & Damage lines... same for Drow & Dwarf.
- Faith: Basic Tenants Enhancement - If you have a weapon chosen that matches one of the Faith Enhancements, then pick it up (Soverign Host for Longswords, Vulkoorim for Drow Shortswords, etc)
- Strength - Put your Level-Ups into STR @ 4, 8, 12. Look for +4 or better STR Item. Strength is your To-Hit and your Damage
- Improved Critical Feat- This is the #1 feat for DPS, and is available at BAB 8 (usually L9 Feat, unless going Fighter)

#2) Power Attack
- Yes... situationally. Power Attack is -5 To-Hit & +5 Damage, and that is damage BEFORE Critical, so with a x2 Critical Weapon, that is +10 Damage on a Crit, +15 on a x3 weapon, etc. Power Attack will help boost your Damage, as long as it does not hurt your % chance to hit too much. For example, if you hit on a 5 or better without PA, that means you need a 10 or better with PA, so you went from 25% miss to 50% miss.... this is not a time to enable Power Attack... but if turning on PA means you miss on a 6 or less, or something like that, then is it certianly the time to turn on PA and start swinging.

#3) Fighter Levels
Yes and No. It depends on what you want to do with the Character, and what you see this character being at Level 14 or 16 or 20. If you want a Pure Paladin, then do so... but if you want a good mix of Paladin and Fighter abilities, then you need to look at how much of each class you want to take. There is a detailed post in my Paladin Build Guide (See my Signature for the link) as to the "Break Points" for Paladins and their common MultiClass Options. This is a good way to get an idea of how you want to split your Paladin. However, I would suggest, as a general rule, Plan for Paladin 11 (unless you have a really good reason not to). Paladin 11 gives you 30-point Resist Energy, and access to almost all of the highest-level Enhancements. There are many discussions on the forums about Paladin 12+, but I would say plan for at least Paladin 11, and then choose what to do with the other 3 (soon to be 5) levels.
But yes, Fighter Levels can be very nice. As for what to take, you need to look at the long term role of the character. If you are DPS focus, then Weapon Focus, Weapon Spec, Power Attack, Cleave/Great Cleave are all decent choices.

#4) Paladin Levels
I addressed this earlier, but I would plan for Paladin 11 / Fighter 3 or Paladin 11 / Rogue 2 / Fighter 1, or something along those lines. Again, check my Build Guide for build ideas.

[Slapphappy]

Thanks for the replies. Dworkin, I found your pally guide very helpful.

[Dworkin_of_Amber]

Glad to help... I think I need to post some updates to the Build Guide to "bump" it back up the list, so that more people see it when they go to the Paladin Boards for help!

[Fallout]

Question... What are the basic principles of boosting DPS for a pally?

> Hard to get around without decent ST. Decent base ST, +2 ST tome, +6 ST item. Like others mention Divine Favor. Bard buffs too. Also depend on gear. To a lesser extend smiting.

Question... Is power attack a useful feat for a one-hand melee toon?

>Yes, my pally uses khopeshes plus bloodstone which gives a boost. But for DPS I go for 2 handers which I almost use all the time now. To make up the -5 attack penalty I use planar girds for greater heroism boost and divine favor.

Question... Should I take some fighter levels to get extra feats? If so which ones? Stun? Slice? Sap? Something else?

>Hard to say what pure pallys will get down the road. Thats what make these types of planning hard.

I can get over 100+ crit using a khopesh on my pure pally, but I typically use the SoS.