SOme ideas on Enhancing Enhancments and Classes

[Impaqt]

These are some basic class and Enhancment enhacements I've been thinking about for sometime. Finally decided to put them all down in one place to see how they fly.


I've always found it odd that Clerics are the only class that get a Double Class attribute enhancment. THey get Wisdom up to +3 AND Chrisma up to +2. Why would a Cleric need Chrisma secondary more than say a ROgue would need Intellegence? If Clerics get a Secondary Attribute enhancment, ALL classes should.


Clerics: Up to +3 Wisdom Primary Up to +2 Chrisma Secondary

Rogues: Up to+3 Dex Primary and Up to +2 Intellegence Secondary

Paladins: Up to +3 Chrisma Primary and +2 Wisdom Secondary

Rangers: Up to +3 Dex Primary and +2 Wisdom Secondary

Fighters: Up to +3 STR Primary and +2 Constitution Secondary

Barbarians: Up to +3 CON Primary and +2 STR Secondary

Arcanes would get a Bit Tricky as they really dont have a Secondary attribute like most other classes. I would balance this by giving them the option (Just like Human Versatility) to add any attribute they like as their secondary.

THis wouldnt be game breaking at all and would allow for some more versatility with initial stats and character creation.



Next on the agenda are the Enhancments themselves. Its the inconsistancy that kills me here. Dwarves get everything under the sun while other classes and races are limited in what they have avaiable even though the character SHOULD be able to take advantage of the same benefits for their Class and Feat Selections....

Toughness is a Glaring Oversight in the Enhancment system.

Any Character that Takes the Toughness Feat should have the ability to take the TOughness Enhancments.

Why would a Fighter with a Toughness feat be able to gain 50 more hit points from that feat compared to a Cleric who took TOughness... Or a Wizard even? I can understand why Dwarves get thier extra bonus... But even there is a glaring disrepency.... Warforged... Why dont they get it too? Both Races start with the same CON and have the exact same Con Bonus availaable.. yet they are treated Differently in the game mechanics for some reason. Makes no sense.

So TOughness should be:

Dwarves AND Warforge get a Racial TOughness Enhancemnt
and
ANY class that takes the Toughness Feat has the option of taking TOughness Enhancments.

Its only fair.

On that Note, Metamagics are the next culprit.

Metamagic enhancments should follow the same rule. If you take the FEAT, you should be entitled to take the Enhancment line. Why are metamagics so skewed twoards Arcane Casters? Why sholdnt a cleric or Ranger for that matter be able to enhance their meta powers just like an arcane with the Exact same feat? This would go a LONG way to help the classes that basically lost all effectiveness with Extend.

Same goes for all the Metamagics of course. If you Invest in the Feat, the Enhancment system should treat everyone the same.


So theres some basic ways to make the game better for everyone IMO. Nothing complicated or unprecidented. just some rebalancing for everyone.

[oronisi]

You have a couple decent suggestions....however I think you just buffed fighters and barbarians disproportionately to everyone else. Every single fighter and barbarian wants more CON and STR regardless of what they currently have. Most rangers and paladins don't care that much for an extra 2 wis, a lot of rogues wouldn't get too excited over 2 more int and would rather str, dex, con, wis, or cha as well.

But that's just something that could be worked out. I agree that if clerics get 2 stat enhancement lines, why not other classes as well.

[Cowdenicus]

Yeah and while we are at it, can we change the secondary stat from something basically worthless to clerics to something useful like con or Str.....

[Impaqt]

You have a couple decent suggestions....however I think you just buffed fighters and barbarians disproportionately to everyone else. Every single fighter and barbarian wants more CON and STR regardless of what they currently have. Most rangers and paladins don't care that much for an extra 2 wis, a lot of rogues wouldn't get too excited over 2 more int and would rather str, dex, con, wis, or cha as well.

But that's just something that could be worked out. I agree that if clerics get 2 stat enhancement lines, why not other classes as well.

Maybe.. But whats the real net result of 2 point sof Con? Barbarians already get CON as their Primary attribute so what they end up with is a +2 to STR in addition to whatthey have now.. +1 extra to hit for a barbarian isnt all that significant...

For the fighters, 2 points of Con means they get 16 extra hit points and 1 point of fort save.... Again, not all that game breaking for a Fort save heavy class to begin with.

I feel this would allow people to not Min/Max so much at creation.. Being able to distribute those initial stat points a little more freely to gain some INT for Skill points or a little more Wisdom for saves.

[Slayer918]

Maybe.. But whats the real net result of 2 point sof Con? Barbarians already get CON as their Primary attribute so what they end up with is a +2 to STR in addition to whatthey have now.. +1 extra to hit for a barbarian isnt all that significant...
If the +2 str moves them to an even modifier then its +1 to-hit/+2 damage... the equivelant of 2 feats (WF/WS)

For the fighters, 2 points of Con means they get 16 extra hit points and 1 point of fort save.... Again, not all that game breaking for a Fort save heavy class to begin with.
I agree this is not game breaking at all

I feel this would allow people to not Min/Max so much at creation.. Being able to distribute those initial stat points a little more freely to gain some INT for Skill points or a little more Wisdom for saves.
Or it could just jack up already inflated stats even more?

I agree on the toughness/metamagic enhancements being available to any1 who takes the feat as well as WF toughness (as well as gnome toughness if we ever get them)...

I just don't like the fact that by devs picking which is the secondary attribute of a class they are making it closer to class X fits into roll X... and IMO that could be the worst thing for this game if that were to happened...

EDIT: Maybe Wizards/Sorcs shouldn't get toughness enhancements but Rangers/Clerics should get it definately IMO and rogues and bards should probably get it but I could see where they wouldn't...

[EinarMal]

Toughness is a Glaring Oversight in the Enhancment system.

Any Character that Takes the Toughness Feat should have the ability to take the TOughness Enhancments.

So TOughness should be:

Dwarves AND Warforge get a Racial TOughness Enhancemnt
and
ANY class that takes the Toughness Feat has the option of taking TOughness Enhancments.

Its only fair.

Triple signed!!! I also mentioned this previously in Codog's thread as well but wouldn't hurt for another mention of this. It is probably one of the biggest current un-balancing things in the game. For classes that do not have toughness attached to them Ranger/Bard/Cleric/Rogue it is a huge advantage to go Dwarf when really it makes no sense. I've said this several times over the last few months and there were even a couple of threads about it. It is really broken right now.

[MrCow]

I'm going to have to agree with the toughness and metamagic enhancements being open so long as you take the corresponding feats.

[EinarMal]

EDIT: Maybe Wizards/Sorcs shouldn't get toughness enhancements but Rangers/Clerics should get it definately IMO and rogues and bards should probably get it but I could see where they wouldn't...

Why would cleric's get it (3/4 BAB) and not Rogues or Bards? Makes no sense...all three classes work well as melee builds and are designed to fight if that is what you want to do.

[Westerner]

I've always found it odd that Clerics are the only class that get a Double Class attribute enhancment. THey get Wisdom up to +3 AND Chrisma up to +2. Why would a Cleric need Chrisma secondary more than say a ROgue would need Intellegence? If Clerics get a Secondary Attribute enhancment, ALL classes should.

I'm not sure about using cleric CHA enhancements as a precedent. As proposed, seems like a gift to Rogues, Fighters, and especially Barbs/Arcanes. Maybe clerics get CHA enhancements to reflect the fact that everyone likes them around.

Any Character that Takes the Toughness Feat should have the ability to take the TOughness Enhancments.

Just because a mage spends time toughening himself doesn't mean he will benefit from it to the same extent as a fighter would. To extend full Toughness enhancements to squishies is unbalancing and not realistic.

I can understand why Dwarves get thier extra bonus... But even there is a glaring disrepency.... Warforged... Why dont they get it too? Both Races start with the same CON and have the exact same Con Bonus availaable.. yet they are treated Differently in the game mechanics for some reason.

Fleshies and constructs, two different animals. Dwarves can increase their toughness by following a special regimen. WF are tough because they're mechanical. That gives them immunity to poison, disease, 50% damage reduction, but also gives them reduced benefit from healing spells and they can only benefit so much from the non-mechanical toughness feat. The mechanical equivalent of toughness would be the plating, fortification, and DR feats.

Metamagic enhancments should follow the same rule. If you take the FEAT, you should be entitled to take the Enhancment line.

I get the feeling that you're going towards a fully cross class enhancment system. That might provide additional flexibility at the cost of complexity. Perhaps enhancment prereqs could be driven by a combination of things and be open to more classes. An example might be the new Arcane Archer enhancements that have multiclass prereqs. However, cross class enhancements should cost more AP than class enhancements.

[QuantumFX]

Hoinestly I think we need a selection of primary stats and a selection of secondary stats. Make each chain exclusive and you've just increased the diversity of builds in DDO.

ex
Fighter: Primary (STR, DEX) Secondary (STR, DEX, CON)
Barbarian: Primary (STR, CON) Secondary (STR, DEX, CON)
Paladin: Primary (STR, CHA) Secondary (WIS, CHA, CON)
Ranger: Primary (STR, DEX) Secondary (WIS, DEX, CON)
Cleric: Primary (WIS, CON) Secondary (CHA, WIS, CON)
Rogue: Primary (INT, DEX) Secondary (STR, DEX, CON)
Wizard: Primary (INT, CON) Secondary (INT, DEX, CON)
Sorceror: Primary (CHA, CON) Secondary (CHA, DEX, CON)
Bard: Primary (CHA, STR) Secondary (CHA, DEX, CON)

[Impaqt]

I'm not sure about using cleric CHA enhancements as a precedent. As proposed, seems like a gift to Rogues, Fighters, and especially Barbs/Arcanes. Maybe clerics get CHA enhancements to reflect the fact that everyone likes them around.

But Battle Clerics still get the CHR enh.. an no on elikes them evidentally. :0

Just because a mage spends time toughening himself doesn't mean he will benefit from it to the same extent as a fighter would. To extend full Toughness enhancements to squishies is unbalancing and not realistic.

Why? By that logic no one but fighters shoud get Heroic Durabiity as a free L1 feat either. and Mages should get somethng other than Dragonic Vitality when they get their Argonness favor..... THeres already precident in the game for all classes being treaded fairly is some areas and not others... Shoudl Dwarven Wizards be excluded from taking Dwarven TOughness enhancements?

Fleshies and constructs, two different animals. Dwarves can increase their toughness by following a special regimen. WF are tough because they're mechanical. That gives them immunity to poison, disease, 50% damage reduction, but also gives them reduced benefit from healing spells and they can only benefit so much from the non-mechanical toughness feat. The mechanical equivalent of toughness would be the plating, fortification, and DR feats.

WIth that Logic, Warforge should not even be able to take the toughness feat at all.. But guess what, they can.. I suppose they should be able to take aby feat that enhances their durability or effectiveness in any way shape or form.. that leaves about 6 feats for them to choose from.

[

I get the feeling that you're going towards a fully cross class enhancment system. That might provide additional flexibility at the cost of complexity. Perhaps enhancment prereqs could be driven by a combination of things and be open to more classes. An example might be the new Arcane Archer enhancements that have multiclass prereqs. However, cross class enhancements should cost more AP than class enhancements.

[Westerner]

But Battle Clerics still get the CHR enh.. an no on elikes them evidentally. :0

Battle Clerics take the CHA enh for the bonus to their reaction roll... otherwise, no one would group with them.

By that logic no one but fighters shoud get Heroic Durabiity as a free L1 feat either. and Mages should get somethng other than Dragonic Vitality when they get their Argonness favor..... THeres already precident in the game for all classes being treaded fairly is some areas and not others... Shoudl Dwarven Wizards be excluded from taking Dwarven TOughness enhancements?

Everyone gets Heroic Durability b/c they're, well, Heroic. It's a boost that everyone needs to survive at 1st level in DDO. In DDO your enhancements are a combination of Race + Class. Dwarven Wizards are excluded from class toughness enhancements like any Wizard, and get racial toughness enhancements like any Dwarf. Is this totally realistic? No, but it's playable and simple.

WIth that Logic, Warforge should not even be able to take the toughness feat at all.. But guess what, they can.. I suppose they should be able to take aby feat that enhances their durability or effectiveness in any way shape or form.. that leaves about 6 feats for them to choose from.

WF are just as "alive" as other characters and can take most feats that fleshies can, including toughness. WF Fighters get toughness enhancements same as all fighters. Racially, they get their own unique enhancements as do all races. Again, is this totally realistic? No, but it's balanced, playable, and simple.

[EinarMal]

Racially, they get their own unique enhancements as do all races. Again, is this totally realistic? No, but it's balanced, playable, and simple.

Balanced well that is certainly debatable, noticed the Dwarf Ranger in your sig big surprise there About the only people I have ever seen that claimed the racial enhancements were even play Dwarfs period.

[Westerner]

Balanced well that is certainly debatable, noticed the Dwarf Ranger in your sig big surprise there About the only people I have ever seen that claimed the racial enhancements were even play Dwarfs period.

LOL. It is a topic of debate, which is why I left off the word "balanced" when talking about the Dwarven Wizard.

[EinarMal]

LOL. It is a topic of debate, which is why I left off the word "balanced" when talking about the Dwarven Wizard.

He he...Dwarven tank wizard for the win!!! To me toughenss is a personal trait of the individual that is why the feat is open to everyone, why should the enhancements be any different?

[Emili]

Another problem comes into play here... the racial stat enhancements. Why do you suppose so many dwarves are melee builds? It's easy to build them that way as the con enhancement supplemented with the class enhancements - ie.) fighter or since they can step back on con to max the str on a barb and still come out ahead in con on a barbarian (5 con enhancements to play with)... same for a Elf/Drow when it comes to dex based builds. What am I pointing out here?

You're giving the dwarf and elf even more flexibility... dwarves/wf with up to +7 con in barbarian or elf +7 in dex based builds, now they do not have to take them all but does allow them to shore up the other base stats and round out building a better overall toon then what you can possibly build in say a human in those classes - you're skewing more to the reasons why someone would choose dwarf, wf or elf for a given class - thus human adaptability and greater adaptability would become even less of a viable enhancement for instance as the dwarf fighter just takes less con to start and places his points somewhere else and boost up the con via aps as he's more flexibility in spending cheap aps now ie. 2ap in dwarf con 2ap in fighter con for his +2 con vs 6ap's it cost him before. Do you really know how annoying human adaptability/greater adaptability is - 2 for 1 point then 4 for 1 point in some other stat - the pay scale is not equivalent among race, maybe if they added a cheaper versitility to human then it would be fine as long as they added another tier of adaptability and greater adaptability to them - as that is suppose to be the versitile race.

You know what... I just had an arguement with a friend bout how he see's this game being so screwed up when people are splashing pally rogues and building dwarven melee as easy tickets - brought on because he was soloing his elven warchanter bard of all things... I argued with him for some time as quiting is on his mind, but I do understand his sentiment. Exactly what he said to me - an easy melee build - build a dwarf... near impossible to screw one up and covers up a bad player cause you do not need to play one well as well as a non-dwarf for same results... easy caster - and elf or drow... etc...

If anything they do with the enhancements they should be following the feats... not class, not race.

[Slayer918]

Why would cleric's get it (3/4 BAB) and not Rogues or Bards? Makes no sense...all three classes work well as melee builds and are designed to fight if that is what you want to do.

Well clerics are built to work in heavy armor which to me always said that they were tougher, also bards and rogues have d6 hitpoints instead of a clerics d8...

I'm not saying rogues and bards shouldn't get it... or that they dont make great melees... I'm just saying I could see the argument against it...

Another Idea would be maybe to give the other classes toughness enhancements but say instead of at 1, 4, 7, 10 like ftr/barb/paly are put them at like 1, 5, 10 and stop it there...

Same AP cost, Same Benefit, just no option to get the 4th tier meaning they still get amplified benefit from the feat... just not quite as much?

I think that ftrs/barbs/palys should have a **slight** advantage over the other classes in this area, not quite as much as they currently do though... you can throw rangers in there if you want to as well...

[fefnir3284]

Yeah and while we are at it, can we change the secondary stat from something basically worthless to clerics to something useful like con or Str.....

Ill have to disagree with you there cow. I agree with all the listed stats except one. My cleric would love more cha and wis (more cha than wis but this is just me), my ranger would love more dex and wis, my paladin would love more cha, but Im not sure of wis (id prefer dex ), and my rogue and fighter would love dex/int and str/con

[Impaqt]

You're giving the dwarf and elf even more flexibility... dwarves/wf with up to +7 con in barbarian or elf +7 in dex based builds, now they do not have to take them all but does allow them to shore up the other base stats and round out building a better overall toon then what you can possibly build in say a human in those classes - you're skewing more to the reasons why someone would choose dwarf, wf or elf for a given class - thus human adaptability and greater adaptability would become even less of a viable enhancement for instance as the dwarf fighter just takes less con to start and places his points somewhere else and boost up the con via aps as he's more flexibility in spending cheap aps now ie. 2ap in dwarf con 2ap in fighter con for his +2 con vs 6ap's it cost him before. Do you really know how annoying human adaptability/greater adaptability is - 2 for 1 point then 4 for 1 point in some other stat - the pay scale is not equivalent among race, maybe if they added a cheaper versitility to human then it would be fine as long as they added another tier of adaptability and greater adaptability to them - as that is suppose to be the versitile race.

+7? I dont see where I allowed that....

Elves and Halfling can already get +5 Dex.... This shouldnt allaw anyoen to surpass that

[Turial]

The +7 would come from the +2 bonus at creation and the +5 (+2 and +3) from AP.