Normal is the new Solo, so let me skip to Hard

[BlueLightBandit]

Without going into a philosophical discussion about why PD guild have rules, <snip>

YOUR pd rules should have NO impact on MY ddo experience. If you do not like the way the shrines works, please use examples that do not relate to pd rules. Instead, use examples that will affect all ddo players.

If your thought is to change the game to benefit pd and pd alone... then I am against any suggestions you have on principle alone. Just like I am against any changes to the core game that benefit ONLY fighters, or ONLY casters or ONLY guilded players or ONLY non-guilded players, etc. Changing a feat or a spell or a bows timing is one thing... but changing a shrine is a pretty big deal.

EDIT for clarification: If you think the new shrine rules unbalances the game... then permadeath should have NEVER been brought up. If it unbalances the game, then it unbalances it for ALL players, not just your sect. If you feel it unbalances the game for pd players and pd players alone, then I will argue that these changes would be for the "greater good" so that the majority of the population would benefit from them.

[TommyBoy]

If you're going to make Normal the new Solo mode (by making all the shrines re-usable and thereby making the whole reason for shrines pointless in the first place), you should allow me to skip it and go straight to Hard.

<<EDIT>> I'd settle for some type of indicator that tells players when they've already used a shrine once.

Wait theres actually a solo mode? dude normal has been solo since the begining. Solo is and was stupid to begin with. Seriously whats the point of solo in the first place and deos anyone actually use it.

oh and for the non perma death guy out there. perma death is a blast you should try it.

[Dariun]

Wait theres actually a solo mode? dude normal has been solo since the begining. Solo is and was stupid to begin with. Seriously whats the point of solo in the first place and deos anyone actually use it.

When it first came out, I was really excited because I like to play solo due to real life issues (mostly not knowing if I can play for 15 minutes or 2 hours). But the XP was slashed so much that there was very little point in using it beyond level 2, and some of the lvl 4-6 quests are fairly nasty and tough on "solo" mode for a character that could not do them on "normal" (I'm looking at you House K!!).

oh and for the non perma death guy out there. perma death is a blast you should try it.

If I had the time, permadeath is something I'm sure I would like.

I still remember the first time my first character died. I was thinking AD&D where when a low level character dies, the low level character is dead. I asked my friend, "uh, so now what? Do I re-roll?". He says, "No, you just teleport to the bar and get something to eat." I said, "... ... ... uh... really? so dying doesn't actually kill you?". "No." "Huh..."

[Zenako]

aside to Parvo - no offense taken - twas in the give and take of the discussion....

The various quests you cite as examples - not hard to recall on most of those.

Proof is inthe Poison = 1 Shrine at about the 60% done point. Easy to remember and seldom skipped by any level group.
Tear of Dhakaan (one of my favorites by the way) = 2 Shrines. Again very easy to remember if you used them. Very linear quest.
Irestone = just look at your map if the fog of war is already gone, you have been by here before. Most groups will reshrine (if they are going to shrine at all in this quest) each time they see one. At level appropriate ranges, buffs do not last long enough for the whole thing.
Butchers path again is pretty linear so should be easy to remember.
Kobold Assault = 1 Shrine very close, if you can't remember if you used that one already...ooops.

Now quests like Stormcleave, Gwylans Stand, Madstone that have mulitple shrines and that revisit areas due to fairly open pathing could be more problematic, BUT, in those cases the shrines all tend to be more distintive and have different settings, unlike the stock shrine room in WW for example making it easier to remember if you already used it.

The other poster who indicated that a better MAP GUI would be a higher priority for the masses is right on in my opinion.

On another point, the game is always changing how it is implemented. Your rules were drafted under an earlier implementation in which some things were not an issue. Well the way the game is playing will be slightly different so your rules will need to account for those changes. As I mentioned in an earlier post, how will you be handling the new Regen from Stable changes to the rules? Clearly you will have to make some new ruling on that change. If you want to keep things as they were, then characters who stablize when the party wipes will now just have to suicide them selves, since in the current implementation, they would just sit there stable forever. Gameplay is changing and your guild rules will need to factor that revised implementation into how you choose to play the game. From my perspective, being allowed to reuse a shrine after 15 minutes really seems like a non-issue for the vast majority of players for the reasons many have mentioned. Clearly it does not sit as well with you.

[twix]

Why should things change because you and your small (yes i said small) group of permadeath players want it too?Permadeath takes up 5% of the population of ddo.I tried permadeath on argo and could never find people on let alone find a group of permadeath players to play with.Like the concept but the use of shrines should be up to you seeing as how you are a small % of the population It shouldnt be a big deal to keep track of your shrines.To make an option for 5 % of the pop would be stupid and a wast of time for turbine and anyone else who pays their salary namely us who pay for the game just mho.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

What I don't get about this discussion is if instead of allowing reuse of shrines the devs had doubled the number of shrines would you randomly stop using half of them? It's an odd self imposed rule the PD'ers are trying to impose.

[Dariun]

What I don't get about this discussion is if instead of allowing reuse of shrines the devs had doubled the number of shrines would you randomly stop using half of them? It's an odd self imposed rule the PD'ers are trying to impose.

Honestly, I think the discussion is more about, uh, let's call it "chest thumping" than anything practical (i.e., not really "this rule is a problem" but more "my style is better than your style").

[beeofdoom]

I hate running a good quest for the first time on normal. Although it may be well designed, for characters that have been around since the 32 pt build possibility, normal-level mobs are absolutely trivial.

So why not let us go into a brand new quest first time on elite? Right now even if its my first time in the quest on elite, someone else knows it, and leads the group by the nose through the quest. So much for the sense of discovery.

I want the thrill of brand new content, without spoilers from groupmates, AND I want traps and mobs that can kick the **** out of a group that doesn't think on its feet and have strong characters and strong players.

[Zenako]

I hate running a good quest for the first time on normal. Although it may be well designed, for characters that have been around since the 32 pt build possibility, normal-level mobs are absolutely trivial.

So why not let us go into a brand new quest first time on elite? Right now even if its my first time in the quest on elite, someone else knows it, and leads the group by the nose through the quest. So much for the sense of discovery.

I want the thrill of brand new content, without spoilers from groupmates, AND I want traps and mobs that can kick the **** out of a group that doesn't think on its feet and have strong characters and strong players.

ummmm, then run with different groupmates then. I assure you that the first time thru on normal, suitable butts were kicked on new quests until the nuances and tricks were figured out.

[Dariun]

I want the thrill of brand new content, without spoilers from groupmates, AND I want traps and mobs that can kick the **** out of a group that doesn't think on its feet and have strong characters and strong players.

Maybe join a no-spoilers, no-twink, permadeath guild or something?? Sounds like you'd enjoy it. Maybe you should PM parvo and ask about his guild...

[Spookydodger]

Without going into a philosophical discussion about why PD guild have rules, suffice it to say that limited shrine use is more balanced than unlimited shrine use. At a minimum, I want an indicator that tells me if I have already rested at a shrine during that instance. Skiping Normal difficulty is also an option I think the normal player base would like as well.

I'm sorry. It doesn't "suffice" to say. Several people have given examples of how they believe it won't affect play that much. Give some sort of example of how it will unbalance the game.

[Spookydodger]

ummmm, then run with different groupmates then. I assure you that the first time thru on normal, suitable butts were kicked on new quests until the nuances and tricks were figured out.

Inferno of the Damned still gives most groups headaches on Normal.

[Spookydodger]

YOUR pd rules should have NO impact on MY ddo experience. If you do not like the way the shrines works, please use examples that do not relate to pd rules. Instead, use examples that will affect all ddo players.

In many ways, it is the duty of people in a discussion to not only consider the common good, but also present their unique vantage point. So as much as I may disagree with Parvo on many of his stances and communication tactics, he does have every right to bring up PD as a valid viewpoint just as "non-elite" players have a right to bring forward their experiences as just as valid as twinked out, uber-twitch players.

That being said, it has long been the plight of PD guilds to play by their own, self-enforced rules. Perhaps not using a shrine more than once will be among them.

[parvo]

Why should things change because you and your small (yes i said small) group of permadeath players want it too?Permadeath takes up 5% of the population of ddo.I tried permadeath on argo and could never find people on let alone find a group of permadeath players to play with.Like the concept but the use of shrines should be up to you seeing as how you are a small % of the population It shouldnt be a big deal to keep track of your shrines.To make an option for 5 % of the pop would be stupid and a wast of time for turbine and anyone else who pays their salary namely us who pay for the game just mho.

We had over 20 members on last night. At some points more than any other non-anon Argo guild. What do you think they made this change for anyway? A small percentage of the players (solo'ers). You're on the wrong side of the argument. You should be telling Turbine to nix this change because it's a waste of time. My proposal however, would affect a lot of players. You think skipping normal is something only PD'ers would do?

Turbine feels like they need to do this and they have the best vantage point. But I'd like them to allow us an option here to somehow maintain current shrine functionality.

[beeofdoom]

ummmm, then run with different groupmates then. I assure you that the first time thru on normal, suitable butts were kicked on new quests until the nuances and tricks were figured out.

It varies depending on the quest, party and players. Generally however, no, normal mobs do not present a threat to well built, well played, 32-point builds with raid gear. Some hard-level mobs present a challenge, most elite mobs definately do. I realize there's various grouping workarounds, the point is, from a design standpoint why shouldn't I be able to go into a quest on elite the first time?

Yes there'd be decreased time for favor completion or to get to increased loot levels, but far more important is making sure you get the most out of your first time in a new quest. These guys work for months to put out new quests, and unless you have a memory defiency you only get to run a new quest for the first time once. Seems like a major waste of time to spend all that time developing fiendish ambushes and traps that won't phase people on normal, but would on elite, and then to say "Well, now that you know what spells and weapons to bring and where the ambushes/traps are, you can play it on a difficulty level that might actually wipe you".

It's not like you unlock additional content in a quest on different difficulties, it's the same content with the same mobs/traps that have different stats.