Help with build: Tempest/Warchanter

[Artemis]

I don't have much time to play, so 1750 favor is not gonna happen anytime soon. I understand the benefits, but, its not really in the cards for me until later.

So, considering that, what do you think of this build. I just want to know if the end game numbers work out and if you think it will be a good dps at 16 on towards 20. Trying to take advantage of Tempest enhancements coming in Mod 6 and Warchanter


True neutral Drow elf: 11 Ranger/1 Fighter/ 8 Bard
Duel Rapier
True Neutral to try to help against alignment weapon damage at end game

Starting stats:
16 str.
16 dex.
14 con.
8 int.
10wis ----+1 tome at creation
11 char.


Levels:
Spells,Ability Mods. Feats
1: Bard spells: clw, Dodge

2: Ranger FE: Undead

3: R Mobility
4: R Ability: STR
5: R
6: R Spring Attack, FE: Giant
7: R
8: R Abiltiy: STR
9: R IC: Pierce
10: R
11: R FE: Evil Outsiders

12: R Ability: STR OSTWF (Oversized to twf)

13: F WF: Pierce
14: B Spell: Focusing Chant ( will switch this out earlier, once i get ranger clw, so would have this earlier and pick up something else)

15: B Spell: Grease Extend

16: B Ability: Dex
Spell: Blur, Rage

17: B Spell: Remove Fear, Soundburst

18: B Power Attack
Will pick up Warchanter at this time

19: B Spell: Invis., Haste, Displacement

20: B Spell: Good Hope
Ability: STR

Benefits:
Max. UMD
Manyshot
Evasion
+4 Barkskin
20 pt. Resists
11 Songs ( with enhancements)
Fascinate
+4 STR (from rage and Rams Might)
Warchanter bonuses (I believe it should be +5 To hit/+6 dmg)
Tempest Increase in Combat speed and +2 armor class
+2 Con from rage

STR Bonuses:
+2 Rage
+2 Ram's Might

Bonuses to Hit:
Warchanter bonuses ( having trouble figuring those)
+1 haste
+2 Good Hope
+1 Focusing Chant

So, outside of 1750 builds, how does this look going into the future? do these numbers look good?? To me it looks like it could bring a lot of flexibility to a party and still pack a pretty good punch.

Thanks for any help.

[EinarMal]

One thing is if you skip the fighter level (and drop oversized TWF) you can get level 9 Bard which is inspire greatness which gives you back the +2 to hit that you would get from the feat (and applies to everyone in the group). Also your Bard buffs last longer etc... so 11/9 would be better I think.

[Artemis]

will i be able to fit all the feats in that i need if i don't take the fighter lvl??
Also, i guess my big question is do you think that this is a viable dps build?

thanks

[maddmatt70]

Good concept. I am just not sure what is the best level progression for you. The developers are hinting that superior two weapon fighting will be available to rangers who take the tempest enhancement (for mod 7), but my guess is you will not have enough ranger levels for it. Probably you will have to have gone 16 ranger. Since you have such a high base attack you might as well fit that feat in. I would say take that feat over oversized two weapon fighting (if you do then take your fighter level at 16 and take that ability score pt in dex like your planning and use your favor tome on +2 dex). You can always swap out feats in the future at 16 if you dont have your favor tome yet or maybe you might loot a +2 tome in the next mod. There are some issues for you regarding to-hit and what this character will look like at 16 and then when the cap is raised to 18. At 18 you are looking pretty good with 6 levels of bard, 11 ranger, and 1 fighter. At 16 I am not so sure as you will have 4 bard, 11 ranger, 1 fighter - the bard buffs and ram's might probably will be enough.

[binnsr]

I suppose the real question here is going to be whether you'll be able to take both Tempest and WarChanter. All of the enhancement lines like that are currently mutually exclusive (at least within the same class) - would be nice to know for sure before the OP starts spending his limited playtime on this build..

[EinarMal]

I still don't get the oversized two weapon fighting and taking the fighter level.

All that does is reduce your penalty by 2 on each hand, taking Bard 9 and getting inspire greatness would do the same thing and your buffs last longer. The fighter level isn't really helping you that I can tell. You don't need that feat (or at least you get the same benefit plus other things by getting inspire greatness).

[ShadowFox1978]

I suppose the real question here is going to be whether you'll be able to take both Tempest and WarChanter. All of the enhancement lines like that are currently mutually exclusive (at least within the same class) - would be nice to know for sure before the OP starts spending his limited playtime on this build..

The lines within classes are mutually exclusive do to feat and enhancement reqs, limiting each other. Warchanter requires PA, Weapon focus and some AP. Tempest requires Dodge, mobility, spring attack. There should be no reason he can not meet the reqs for both lines. The best thing to do is post on the dev forum and see what they say as far as only being able to take one specialty.

[death_smurf]

I still don't get the oversized two weapon fighting and taking the fighter level.

All that does is reduce your penalty by 2 on each hand, taking Bard 9 and getting inspire greatness would do the same thing and your buffs last longer. The fighter level isn't really helping you that I can tell. You don't need that feat (or at least you get the same benefit plus other things by getting inspire greatness).

what it also does is open up the fighter enhancement melee haste boost which will stack with the tempest melee speed boost. 1 ap get you an addition 15% melee speed boost for 20 seconds. stack that on top of other boosts and its signifigant... more signifigant in my opinion than the feat you get from the fighter level.

[maddmatt70]

dont forget the +1 bab for fighter where as at level 9 bard gets a 0 bab. I would take sup twf over oversized myself. I am guessing the OP is planning to leave that option open down the road.

[skraus1]

dont forget the +1 bab for fighter where as at level 9 bard gets a 0 bab. I would take sup twf over oversized myself. I am guessing the OP is planning to leave that option open down the road.

Yeah, but bard 9/ranger 11 has 17bab. So no difference in attack speed, and this build gives the entire party +2 to hit via inspire greatness. This is much better than +1 Bab (18 total) and a feat.

[maddmatt70]

Yeah, but bard 9/ranger 11 has 17bab. So no difference in attack speed, and this build gives the entire party +2 to hit via inspire greatness. This is much better than +1 Bab (18 total) and a feat.

There is another way to look at this. Since the level 9 bard will not make a difference until level 20 whereas the level of fighter at 16 would make a huge difference if the OP takes it at 16 for sup two weapon fighting or even takes OTW there will be a whole year before this +2 to hit via inspire greatness would make a difference as the level cap will not be level 20 for at least a year if ever and the OP would not be able to take that 9th bard level until then.... Why wait a year? Everything that I have heard on Risia right now is two weapon fighting is tearing things up. Some of that will probably be balanced prior to the next mod coming out, but even so that sup two weapon fighting with tempest is looking real good right now.

One of the previous posters makes the point about fighter haste which is a very nice enhancement, +1 base attack, +2 hp, and the feat what is not to like vs. an extra level of bard which will not make a difference for another year..

[~Jules921]

I was under the impression that you could only select 1 specialist line at a time from any class even if your meet the requirements for more then one.

Jules

[EinarMal]

I was under the impression that you could only select 1 specialist line at a time from any class even if your meet the requirements for more then one.

Jules

That is only within the same class.

[EinarMal]

If you are dead set on the Ranger 11/Bard 8/Fighter 1, then I would suggest making more of an intimidate tank while TWF and doing DPS as you will fit in better for parties. You aren't really going to fill the "Bard" slot with only 8 levels so many times if another Bard is in the group your Bard songs will be wasted but....

Dwarf Warchanting Tempest (Neutral Bard 8/Ranger 11/Fighter1)

Stats:
Str 16 (32 =16 +4 Levels +2 Tome +6 Item +4 Spell)
Dex 16 (26 =16 +1 Level +2 Tome +1 Enh +6 Item)
Con 14 (24 =14 +2 Enh +6 Item +2 Spell)
Int 8
Wis 8 (16 =8 +2 Tome +6 Item)
Cha 10 (18=10 +1 Tome +1 Enh +6 Item)

Slots:
Head: Wis +6
Neck: Protection +5
Eyes: Seeker +4
Trinket: Head of Good Fortune
Cloak: Cha +6
Chest: KDS
Waist: Daggertooth Belt/Grids
Wrist: Chaosgaurd
Gloves: Strength +6
Boots: Dex +6
Rings: Chattering/Con +6
Weapons: Dwarf Axes

Level Progression:
1-Bard
2-Fighter
3 thru 13-Ranger
14 thru 20-Bard

Skills:
Perform
UMD
Jump
Balance
Intimidate

Feats:
1-Dodge
1-(FE) Undead
2-(FB)Mobility
3-Spring Attack
5-(FE) Giants
6-Toughness
9-Power Attack
12-IC Slashing
12-(FE) Evil Outsider
15-Weapon Focus Slashing
18-Superior Two Weapon Fighting

Enhancements:
Dwarf Melee Attack II
Dwarf Melee Damage II
Dwarf Toughness IV
Dwarf Armor Mastery I
Dwarf Con II
Ranger Tempest
Ranger Dex II
Ranger Favored Damage III
Bard Inspired Damage II
Bard Inspired Attack II
Bard Charisma I
Bard EOM II
Bard Inspired Bravery II
Warchanter
Bard Extra Song III
Bard Lingering Song II
Fighter Strength I
Fighter Critical Accuracy I
Fighter Haste Boost I

HP:
146(Levels) +20(Heroic) +10(Draconic) +140(Con) +22(Tough) +50(Tough Enh)=388

SP:
225(8 Bard) +100(11 Ranger) +85(Cha) +60(Wis) +100(Magi) +40(EOM III) =610

To Hit:
BAB 18
Str 11
Song 5
Racial Dwarf 2
Weapon 5
Haste 1
Focusing Chant 1
TWF + PA -7
Total: +36

Damage:
Strength 11
Weapon 5
Racial Dwarf 2
Rams Might 2
Song 6
PA 5
Total: +31/+25

Saves (Fort/Reflex/Will):
Base: 11/13/9
Attributes: 8/8/3
Resistance: 5/5/5
Greater Hero: 4/4/4
Total: 28/30/21

AC:
Base: 10
KDS: 10
Dex: 6
DAM I: 1
Daggertooth: 2
Chattering: 3
Protection: 5
Barkskin: 4
Tempest: 2
Dodge: 1
Chaosgaurd: 2
Shield Spell: 4
Total: 50 (Plus 50% Miss constant displacement)

Bard Spells:
1-Exp. Retreat, Remove Fear, Cure Light, Focusing Chant
2-Blur, Glitterdust, Rage, Cure Moderate
3-Displacement, Good Hope, Haste

Ranger Spells:
1-Ram's Might, Resist Energy
2-Barkskin, Protection from Energy
3-Remove Disease

[Shaamis]

With all of the thought you are putting into this build, even planning it up to 20th level, I would still consider teh thought of getting teh 1750 favor for 32 point builds.

But if you stillplan on a Drow as the race upon which to build, ou are just fine, because Drow do not get the 32 point build option, when all other races (currently) do.

I have a 2/2/10 Warchanter/THF/Dwarf build, and I love the character, you are in for a lot of fun, and a Warchanter/Tempest build would be frightening.

[Artemis]

wow, thanks guys for all the feedback. it has been very helpful!

My intention was never to take over the Bard slot, just to bring good DPS to a party, versatility (via UMD) and some good group bonuses via bard spells and songs. If a pure bard is in the group, groovy, all the better. But, without a bard, i think the group will welcome +5to hit/+6 dmg. I was choosing OTWF to be able to duel wield rapiers, for the crit bonuses combined with drow racial bonuses (+2 to hit, +2 dmg). STWF is probably the better choice though and i'd have to wait until 18 to pick it up (have to find a +2 dex tome somewhere)

Einarmal, thanks for crunching the numbers on the dwarf build. I was looking for some endgame numbers. Do those numbers look viable for what we probably will face at lvl 18??

It was brought up that lvls 19-20 probably won't be here for at least a year, which is a good point. However, i feel (fairly) confident that we will see 18 sometime next year. So, I would want to focus on up to level 18.

At lvl 18 there is a problem with my current lvl progression. At 18 i won't have haste and displacement available, which i feel will probably be fairly important for survivability. So now i don't know how make the progression work. Do you guys think not having those spells at that time really gimp the build??

I guess i could forestall the fighter level until lvl 19 (and STWF), this will give me 7 bard levels ( haste and displacement) at 18, but I don't think i will be able to fit in the extend feat.

Any more ideas?? Again thanks for your help. The bard boards have been much more responsive than the ranger boards

[EinarMal]

wow, thanks guys for all the feedback. it has been very helpful!

My intention was never to take over the Bard slot, just to bring good DPS to a party, versatility (via UMD) and some good group bonuses via bard spells and songs. If a pure bard is in the group, groovy, all the better. But, without a bard, i think the group will welcome +5to hit/+6 dmg. I was choosing OTWF to be able to duel wield rapiers, for the crit bonuses combined with drow racial bonuses (+2 to hit, +2 dmg). STWF is probably the better choice though and i'd have to wait until 18 to pick it up (have to find a +2 dex tome somewhere)

Einarmal, thanks for crunching the numbers on the dwarf build. I was looking for some endgame numbers. Do those numbers look viable for what we probably will face at lvl 18??

It was brought up that lvls 19-20 probably won't be here for at least a year, which is a good point. However, i feel (fairly) confident that we will see 18 sometime next year. So, I would want to focus on up to level 18.

At lvl 18 there is a problem with my current lvl progression. At 18 i won't have haste and displacement available, which i feel will probably be fairly important for survivability. So now i don't know how make the progression work. Do you guys think not having those spells at that time really gimp the build??

I guess i could forestall the fighter level until lvl 19 (and STWF), this will give me 7 bard levels ( haste and displacement) at 18, but I don't think i will be able to fit in the extend feat.

Any more ideas?? Again thanks for your help. The bard boards have been much more responsive than the ranger boards

With the Dwarf build you are looking at about 4 higher con and 70 more hit points from toughness at level 18 so you would be about 106 hit points ahead of the drow build. With the fighter level, good AC from the tempest enhancement while TWF, you can get close to 50 AC plus displacement evasion and 340+ hit points by level 18. Offensively it is on par with the Drow, very little difference. You would have to scroll displacement obviously at level 18 with both builds.

AC requires a lot of gear there is no getting around that. If you take out the AC gear then you are still on par with the Drow in terms of DPS, but have more hit points and can still with displacmeent and intimidate play the tank role in a caster focused party.

If you want a strong evasion tank, with very good DPS, then the Ranger 11/Bard 8/Fighter 1 build would definitely work. At level 18 you would be Ranger 11/Bard 6/Fighter 1 so have warchanter and blur and good AC if you want it.

Without being able to tank with intimidate I would worry about your build in a lot of groups. If there is another Bard in the group your 6 Bard levels are in a sense almost wasted. At least with intimidate and more hit points you could fill the tank role. DPS is nice, but at high levels casters are the ones most groups will be looking for the majority of the DPS.

Drow as a race are a good choice if you want to TWF and also retain some casting ability as a Bard. So more like 16 str, 16 dex, and 16 cha rather than a low charisma and mostly pure Bard. In your case you are not going to CC cast, so Drow really aren't buying you much. Even a 28 pt Dwarf with all the great Dwarf enhancements would come out ahead for what you are trying to do.

[Obitus]

wow, thanks guys for all the feedback. it has been very helpful!

My intention was never to take over the Bard slot, just to bring good DPS to a party, versatility (via UMD) and some good group bonuses via bard spells and songs. If a pure bard is in the group, groovy, all the better. But, without a bard, i think the group will welcome +5to hit/+6 dmg. I was choosing OTWF to be able to duel wield rapiers, for the crit bonuses combined with drow racial bonuses (+2 to hit, +2 dmg). STWF is probably the better choice though and i'd have to wait until 18 to pick it up (have to find a +2 dex tome somewhere)

If the rumors I've heard about the fifth attack animation are true and remain so, then I don't know that STWF is really going to be that big a deal. You may even have higher DPS is you somehow self-gimp your BAB, but your build doesn't look like it can really do that.

I dunno. From the looks of it, when mature, your build will be quite a good contributor. The issue, of course, is the progression, since you won't see level 18 for probably six months or more, and level 20 until 2009. (Total guesses, but hey.)

At lvl 18 there is a problem with my current lvl progression. At 18 i won't have haste and displacement available, which i feel will probably be fairly important for survivability. So now i don't know how make the progression work. Do you guys think not having those spells at that time really gimp the build??

I think you're probably best off with a more balanced approach. 7/9 Bard/Ranger ain't too shabby at level 16, for instance. You do lose the free GTWF, but you gain Haste and Displacement, more SP, and you get to keep Evasion. Like everything else, it's a judgment call, but I just don't see an 11/4/1 Ranger/Bard/Fighter feeling any significant benefit from his Bard levels at that point.

If you keep up the balanced approach as we hit the 18 cap, then you'll have access to better songs (Inspire Greatness), and you'll have seven feats to play with. That's enough for all the Warchanter and Tempest requirements, plus two of Improved Crit, GTWF (which you can swap out when/if you ever hit Ranger 11), and/or Extend Spell.

Extend is going to be a very big deal for this build, so unfortunately I can't see skipping it as a viable option. At best, at level 20, you'll have 9 Bard spell levels to power your short-term buffs. This is where the racial choice comes into play, IMO; if you were a Dwarf, for instance, I could more easily make a case for skipping Improved Crit, as Dwarven Axes have a higher base damage and a smaller crit range than do rapiers. (They're also easier to find, but that's neither here nor there.)

Or a 32-point Human, for the extra feat.

According to the numbers I've seen (which may or may not be flawed), GTWF gives you more of a DPS boost than does Improved Crit overall, especially as the opponent's AC rises (and of course, against non-critable opponents). Haste also provides more DPS than IC, but then you get into the somewhat foggy issue of whether you can reasonably expect other team members to have Haste up (in my experience you usually can beyond about level 10, but my experience isn't everyone's; I love being able to cast it myself so I don't have to bug the Sorcerer -- who usually isn't paying that much attention to melee attack speed -- to keep it up).

I guess i could forestall the fighter level until lvl 19 (and STWF), this will give me 7 bard levels ( haste and displacement) at 18, but I don't think i will be able to fit in the extend feat

I think you probably are best off at least putting off the Fighter level as long as you feel you can; you may decide you don't want it. You may even decide later on that you'd rather splash something else as a third class. It's so hard to say at this point what will or won't be the best option at level 20. Hell, it's hard to say what the best option is at level 14.

I have to side with Einar about Inspire Greatness versus the Fighter level, but again it's a judgment call, and that decision is potentially so far away that it seems to me all but a moot point.

[maddmatt70]

yeah good call on the 9 ranger 7 bard. That is probably the way I would go to. Evasion at level 9 ranger and at level 7 bard you get displacement and haste. That is a more surviveable build progression then your current posted one especially for level 16. Then at level 17 and 18 ranger for gtwf and take sup twf at 18. For your progression you should probably go 1 bard and then straight 9 levels of ranger or 7 levels of bard at first. There are always dragonshards that can be utilized (for 75 favor in the gianthold you can select a dragonshard for your favor reward) so you can pick up gtwf this coming mod and then swap it out when you get the two levels of ranger at 17 and 18. As far as race is concerned I assumed you were set on drow. I have not been a fan of the drow or elf battle bards because of their core surviveablity (the -2 to con), but you do have evasion which will make a big difference. Dwarf is always a strong option although you should fit a toughness feat in there if you go with dwarf. Human is a nice option with the +1 to con, extra feat, and +1 to skills, Halfing is an interesting option as it would give you great saves but you would have that -2 strength your to hit is not affected with the +1 to attack for size but your damage would be. Feats: extend, gtwf, improved crit, the spring attack line, dodge, mobility, and spring attack. Now if you go human you could fit in power attack or otwf (I would take power attack over otwf personaly - as you should not have much trouble hitting as a bard with warchanter songs as long as you stay buffed). When you hit level 18 you can swap the gtwf that you took earlier for power attack, otwf, or what have you.

By the way i think +2 tomes will be alot more common in the next mod (with level 18 chests) and if you pull a non dex tome you can always trade it for a +2 dex tome so I would plan your char with sup twf in mind for sometime down the road. Regarding the 5th attack animation I have heard the bonus attacks with sup twf makes up for the animation slow down. Two handers and one hander melees are the groups really hurt by this animation snafu. It is almost a certainty that this animation snafu will be fixed prior to mod 6 coming out so I am not too concerned about it.