Will DDO see EPIC LEVELS?

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This question goes squarely to the high-ups at Turbine. I request one of the devs to address this question clearly, for all DDOdom.

I have seen this question hinted and talked about in countless threads, and every character builder on this thread has had to take this into account when creating his/her build, and answer to it to defend his/her build. There are many who'd love an answer either way, and since the upcoming level cap is fast approaching, it needs to be addressed, and extremely soon. There truthfully is no positive or negative answer, other than no answer at all.

Until we get feedback from the Turbine Gods, what does the community think?

[Impaqt]

Its a Moot point. 4.0 Brings 30 "Standard" Levels so the devs can simply go up to 30 now before they have to worry about "Epic" stuff. (Or whatever they call it.. If they do have it in 4.0)

At teh rate we've been getting level cap bumps, thats like 5 more years before we would hit 30

[dragnmoon]

Its a Moot point. 4.0 Brings 30 "Standard" Levels so the devs can simply go up to 30 now before they have to worry about "Epic" stuff. (Or whatever they call it.. If they do have it in 4.0)

At teh rate we've been getting level cap bumps, thats like 5 more years before we would hit 30

The stated recently they will not decide what to do (if anything) with D&D 4.0 until they see it.

Recently they stated in an interview they have started looking into epic levels in the future. But they said neither way if it was definitely going in after level 20.

[honkuimushi]

What I read in interviews is that they want to, but they stopped short of making any promises. Realistically, they have at least a year before it becomes an issue. We'll get level 16 soon, probably in January, then i would expect 18 six months later, at the earliest. Level 20 shouldn't take that long since there are no new spell levels. But I'm still thinking that we won't hit level 20 until next December. That's about the time I would expect to hear more concrete things about epic levels. I'm thinking it would be June 2009 before we would actually see them.

I hope they don't take the level system from 4.0. It's still a new system and while adding a few things that have been improved might be a nice touch, this system was based on 3.5 and trying to shoehorn it into a 4.0 system would be a mistake.

[MysticTheurge]

We'll get level 16 soon, probably in January, then i would expect 18 six months later, at the earliest. Level 20 shouldn't take that long since there are no new spell levels. But I'm still thinking that we won't hit level 20 until next December.

I'd imagine that jumping from 16 to 20 should be relatively feasible.

It's one level of spells (9th) which we know is one of the major hurdles in raising the level cap. The only other things that they'd have to add would be:

Maybe a new attack animation at BAB 20 (hopefully not). Hard.
Tireless Rage - No fatigue when rage ends. Easy.
Mighty Rage - +8 str/con when raged instead of +6. Easy.
Mass Suggestion (bardic music) - Like suggestion (bardic music) but multiple targets. Easy.
Inspire Courage +4 - Bonus from inspire courage increases by +1. Easy.
Empty Body - Monks can go ethereal, might just ignore this ability. Moderate. Would be needed for 18th anyway.
Perfect Self - Monks become outsiders (immune to ____ Person spells), gain DR 10/magic. Easy.
Paladin Remove Disease and Smite Evil 5/day - More uses of existing abilities. Easy.
Hide in Plain Sight - Rangers can hide while being watched. Moderate. Would be needed for 18th anyway.
5th Favored Enemy - Rangers get a fifth favored enemy at 20th. Easy.
+2d6 sneak attack - Increased damage on the existing ability. Easy
+1 trap sense - Increased bonus from existing ability. Easy.
Additional rogue special ability - They already have some that stack so they could (theoretically) not add more, but they'll probably be doing it anyway over time. Moderate. Would probably happen anyway.
Another metamagic feat for wizards - Again, they don't have to add new ones, but they probably will be doing so anyway, over time. Moderate. Would probably happen anyway.

19th and 20th just really don't add too much new hard stuff to do.

[dragnmoon]

19th and 20th just really don't add too much new hard stuff to do.

Levels 20 has always been disappointing for full class in D&D... one of the few things I am looking forward to in 4.0, the change in level progression.

[MysticTheurge]

Levels 20 has always been disappointing for full class in D&D... one of the few things I am looking forward to in 4.0, the change in level progression.

Heck level 20 isn't the only place this is a problem.

Odd fighter levels.
Most paladin levels after 5th.
and so on.

I'm really excited about the "an important decision at every level" concept that 4th edition claims to be working off of.

[honkuimushi]

I'd imagine that jumping from 16 to 20 should be relatively feasible.

It's one level of spells (9th) which we know is one of the major hurdles in raising the level cap. The only other things that they'd have to add would be:

....
19th and 20th just really don't add too much new hard stuff to do.

I agree, but I don't think they would put level cap increases closer than 3 months apart. The hardest increse will be to 18, but 20 is a (relative) cinch. I figure we'll get Mod 6 in January, Mod 7 in March or April, Then maybe Mod 8 in the summer. I think Mod 7 is a good candidate for Monks and maybe half-elves and Mod 8 would be the cap increase and half-orcs. (I think the TTH interview put the races after Monk, but half-elves shouldn't be that hard.) Those 6 months would give them the time to work on the level increase and races and classes. However, there is enough stuff there that I can see some potential delays. I would expect Mod 9 in the fall, but they may not want to increase the cap so soon after the last increase. That's why I was thinking Mod 10 in the winter would bring level 20. They might be able to do it earlier, but they may decide to proiritize other issues and spread the cap increases out to 6 months or more instead of in consecutive modules.

[Cowdenicus]

I hope this game does not go to epic levels, melee classes are already overpowered as is and I would hate to see how bad it becomes come Epics.

[GramercyRiff]

For what it's worth, the new Vale of Twilight is a encounter area that support XP up to level 21. Level 21, of course, is the 1st level of Epic in 3.5. So the door is open, but we'll have to see if it stays open or Turbine decides to close it.

[Ganak]

At this rate. I predict in June, 2011.


Oooo, sorry low blow.

[Riorik]

NO.



Next question.

[Mindspat]

I never understood how PnP players would "develop" characters above level 12 let alone lvl 20. the way we played you were lucky to see level 10!

Honestly, I don't recall there ever being a situation of someone being able to keep the same character above level 7-8. For the most part, if someone wanted to play a higher level quest it meant we ALL had to reroll one at teh level needed. (ie: "this weekend we're playing a lvl 12-14 quest so have one rolled up!")

If you're playing a character that you claim was leveled from 1 up to 20 I suspect you're playing in a campaign setting which we used to refer as "Monty Hall".

[query]

stop generalizing the entire PnP playerbase if we did go from L 1 to 20, thankyouverymuch!

I even played in a limited world where we could not start as core, only DMG basic classes! Yup, warrior, adept or expert. Later, we were "allowed" prestige classes, and sometimes we found good (but long lost and forgotten) magics. We all didn't get +8 equavilent magic stuff, but what did become more powerful after months and months of story-arcs and growth, were the skills and feats we took in tandem with items we found. Having 18 attacks on one round on my Dervish against the big bad before being flicked away for the more tanky ones even impressed the DM who still saw it coming as I built it up.

So, your playing style may vary from other playing styles, and yes, we did have permanent death for a long time in the campaign until we found that rare cleric (not adept) who could restore our lives and finally (high teens) were able to read those scrolls (when even found) to bring us back.

So grown or instantly produced, it all matters with the players and DM, and one size detter durn not fit all!


Oh yeah, that original topic:

IMHO, let's focus on getting the original core/Eberron classes all there first, then worry about whether we play above "normal" play level of 20/30/whatever converted in a DDO manner.

I never understood how PnP players would "develop" characters above level 12 let alone lvl 20. the way we played you were lucky to see level 10!

Honestly, I don't recall there ever being a situation of someone being able to keep the same character above level 7-8. For the most part, if someone wanted to play a higher level quest it meant we ALL had to reroll one at teh level needed. (ie: "this weekend we're playing a lvl 12-14 quest so have one rolled up!")

If you're playing a character that you claim was leveled from 1 up to 20 I suspect you're playing in a campaign setting which we used to refer as "Monty Hall".

[Joalin_the_Theurge]

Joalin the Theurge was my first 3.5 PNP character. She started as a Sorcerer, then became a Favored Soul, then at 9th level after taking Practiced Spellcaster for both classes became a Theurge who's spells were all as powerful as a Sorcerer or Favored Soul of her character level would be. When we ended the campaign, Joalin was Sorcerer 4/Favored Soul 4/Mystic Theurge 10/Monk 4 (our DM allowed me to take Practiced Spellcaster one more time for my Theurge class). As for being a "Monty Hall" campaign, my most powerful piece of equipment when we ended the game was a pair of +5 Bracers Of Armor that I had just found in that game.

As for Epic levels in this game, let's get all of our base classes (including expanded base classes) and base races (including expanded ones offered in supplimental books). Then we can look at Epic levels if the game still survives that long.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

IMHO, let's focus on getting the original core/Eberron classes all there first, then worry about whether we play above "normal" play level of 20/30/whatever converted in a DDO manner.

Now THAT is an excellent idea. I hear SO LITTLE talked about telling the story of Eberron. Having to follow in the footsteps of the Forgotten Realms (which I feel was D&D's original heyday), I think Turbine needs to constantly add depth to and very poetically emphasize Eberron to the masses.

How fun would it be to play:

1. Shifters, (or "weretouched", are a true race that developed through the breeding of humans and lycanthropes resulting in a superficially human form with somewhat "animalistic" features.)
2. Changelings (developed through the breeding of humans and doppelgangers. While they do not have the full shapechanging and telepathic abilities of doppelgangers, they still have a minor change shape ability that allows them to take on other appearances at will.)
3. Gnomes (Like all gnomes, the members of House Sivis have an insatiable thirst for knowledge. They delight in studying sigils, arcane marks, written language, and mathematics that bore members of other races. Combining these disciplines, they discovered the power of spellglyphs.)

Oops, did I just say House Sivis? Or was that House Lyrandar? Yup... theres a whole OTHER Eberron out there!

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This is a great discussion so far. As an old PnP guy, I see alot of daym good opinions coming out, some that I know are coming from the core PnP role playing community, some opinions I havent read about on here before, keep it coming!... hope the Turbine Elites are in attendance

[rivnen]

While Epic levels would be a definite should the game last long enough, core classes (such as druids and monks) and races (gnomes, half orcs) should come out first. However, based on the rate the game is going, with a server merge, Updates every 3 months (if) instead of 1/month, players being seen for a month when new content comes out and then disappearing again, I find it hard to believe the game will survive long enough to reach epic levels-assuming it makes it to level 20 at this rate. (and one of the most useful spells they could put it would be wish yes, they don't seem to think we either would use limited wish, or they don't know how to put it in so theres no chance of wish showing up.) While I still play I am really just waiting for something else to come out...

[Mindspat]

stop generalizing the entire PnP playerbase if we did go from L 1 to 20...rable rable rable...

You are missing the point - there's a wealth of experiances to be enjoyed beyond being "epic".

It would be better suited to introduce a scalable questing mechanisim which could be reversable to allow for higher level characters to re-visit the lower level "dungeons" and still benefit as if they would on a standard quest of their level.

A few additions could be made to increase inventory size and permit scalability of items. Maybe there could be an "Epic" option added to a quest once the developers were content on a permanent level cap to allow us to go through Water Works and face off against cr20 kobolds!

Want to know what I would like? End Game Dynamics based upon readily availble consumables; make the +2 ghosttouch large shield of lesser fire resitence have purpose ******! Allow us to build Fortresses, Castles and Keeps to be maintained by the "phat lewt" we've acquired on our journies. Permit Henchmen to take form and create a dynamic environment of castle raids and random boss encounters. Make my Castle degrade from lack of funding - make it crumble when the onslaught of Fire Giants come for their revenge. This is the type of content which would keep many of us enthralled for ages!

D&D was a sandbox of sorts - please return that gaming experiance to us.

[Seneca_Windforge]

I never understood how PnP players would "develop" characters above level 12 let alone lvl 20. the way we played you were lucky to see level 10!

Honestly, I don't recall there ever being a situation of someone being able to keep the same character above level 7-8. For the most part, if someone wanted to play a higher level quest it meant we ALL had to reroll one at teh level needed. (ie: "this weekend we're playing a lvl 12-14 quest so have one rolled up!")

If you're playing a character that you claim was leveled from 1 up to 20 I suspect you're playing in a campaign setting which we used to refer as "Monty Hall".

The bolded statement is completely ridiculous.

I ran a PnP game that started at level 1 and ran to level 20. The weapons that the PCs were using towards the end were largely inferior to the weapons that DDO had back when the cap was 10, and we had a resurrection variant where permanent death was a possibility.

I have no idea why your campaigns died after level 7-8. Maybe you just had particularly brutal campaigns. Or perhaps you were playing in 2nd edition, where leveling up took a ridiculously long time once you got to 7-8 (if this is the case, then I suggest that you look into the 3rd edition XP system to see how it works before making such statements about other people's campaigns).