Sorcerer Kills Question

[randallflagg]

And btw, when I mentioned lvl 14's whining about content
that didn't meanyou or even most of them, just a bunch that
keep showing up on the forums.

[brootus31]

Have you beta tested AoC Randall? I think you should give it a shot. I think you'll like it and join me and many others. It'll give us time to test the Mod6 stuff, and if we don't like it, take a break.

[brootus31]

P.S. Wow, you are fast on the P.S. post! lol

[randallflagg]

I'll keep that in mind.

Yeah when your stuck working Christmas eve. The capacity
to be forthcoming rather quickly is plentiful.

[randallflagg]

Thanks, I just signed up 4 the AoC fan club. Lets see
what transpires.

[redoubt]

and FWIW, I feel that if my Sorc DOESN'T get the highest kill count, then I haven't been pulling my weight. Rarely is not ahead of everyone at higher levels. Occasionally, in certain types of quests or at lower levels, she won't be.

Why?

When a cleric drops a greater command and the mobs all die without anyone getting hit, should the cleric feel they did not pull their weight because they got zero kills and didn't heal anyone?

When a bard facinates a room full of mobs and the tanks kill them efficiently and quickly while taking minimum damage, is the bard useless for have zero kills?

When my sorc runs through gianthold and stones darn near everything, but doesn't get a single kill on the books, is he useless? I know for a FACT, I had a HUGE impact on completeing the mission.

When my sorc disco balls all the mobs and your sorc drops a firewall on them while they are dancing and gets all the kills does your ep grow? Or can you see that it was teamwork that killed the mobs, regardless of what the kill counter says?

What is the obsession with the kill counter? All it tells you is lies.

[randallflagg]

Redoubt, before you go getting all worked up about kills and
turning my post negative in nature, we already established that
across the board we all agree teamwork is all that matters
on quests.

Furthermore, if you read the whole post instead of picking one
small passage to dissect, you would have know the only reason I
was on the topic of kills was that I do alot of soloing and prefer a
sorc that has a quick kill capability.

Just like in the game folks on the forums are too verbally agressive.

Pipe down son.

[redoubt]

I will also appologize if I was snippy, but please note:
1. I did not mention Brootus or you.
2. I actually want to know why citymorg feels bad if he's not leading the kill count.
3. You talk about zergers telling you that you do a bad job. I believe the kill count causing a fair share of the zerging. Which leads back to my second point again.

As for killing effeciently on a sorc? There are a few schools of thought. DPS and 1-shot kills are already being discussed, but don't forget the slow roast. Put down some CC (otto's dancing ball is my favorite) and a cloudkill to go with it. Stand back 30 feet and watch. Figure 1 or 2 shots of PK for guys who might break out and you kill a whole room for 4 spells. Now I'm not saying that you can't do it with a firewall or DB fireball etc. Just something else that works very well when solo.

[augie]

Getting back to the original topic, Niac's is a very powerful spell to have in the low levels and moderately powerful in the mid levels. Once you reach the upper levels (level 8ish-9ish and up), you'll find that a lot of the mobs you face on Hard and Elite difficulties will be making their reflex saves more and more. Which means you have to cast it multiple times for it just to hit once which is not very efficient.

If this is your first caster, you'll know when that time is. Once you start getting frustrated at how many mobs are making their saves on it, swap it out for another lvl 1 spell like Jump, Nightshield, Cause Fear, Chill Touch or Hypno. Or Grease for comic relief hehe... All of them become far more useful than Niac's. If you still want to keep a cold spell loaded (highly recommended), Ice Storm or Cone of Cold are nice spells that can take Niac's place when you are the appropriate level for those spells.

[randallflagg]

Redoubt,

Very well said. I always appriciate suggestions on ways to kill stuff. Like I said I do
like to solo quite a bit.

No harm no foul, redoubt is a quality advocate for the game.

[Shade]

1 hit eh?

I used to kill him in 2 hits.. Tho this was back in the day before spells could critical, hell before niacs even existed.. I used shocking grasp - even more impressive to run up to the huge boss and take him down with a touch of your hand.

People were always like "***!!@(#!@" when i did that heh.

Also in general I think shocking grasp is the most effecient low level spell, even with niacs around now. Since they are removing (or already have?) the save from it, its gaurenteed high dmg.

Personally I could never find superior potentcy I items for low lvl - so I always just drank lots of superior efficacy potions before casting - you can buy them in house P and there not too expensive.

[randallflagg]

An appearance from Shade on my very own forum! I am honored. You are
a legend on the DDO forums, at least to me, I have been reading them
for quite awhile.
Your not the only legend here, but you are definately one of the half dozen! And I
thank you. I have enjoyed reading many of your posts, your knowlege is profound.

As far as shocking grasp...The problem with that for me usually is the
close generalization with monsters. Particularly with 8+1 STR and
wearing cloth as my only protection.

As far as pure damage modifier, it seems to make sense tho imo.

[Citymorg]

Exactly why I just rerolled a Drow Sorc with all compliments going to fire/ice.
(Rodserling-Argo)
Its already paying dividends. Even on lower level content I send a line of white
Niac's at enemys and their dead before the fighter/barb's even get to em! ;-)

Perhaps the whiny capped lvl 14's with too much time on their hands manufacturing
new complaints daily about D&D gameplay might be right, casters are tilting
the power balance in Stormreach??!

Not. ;-)

--This is true to D&D PnP. Fighter types are usually very easy to play and good at low level. However, when you get to higher levels, where mobs have spells and spell-like abilities, fighters just can't keep up. There is an old saying "The Fighter's job is to protect the Magic-User until he/she can protect themselves"

[QUOTE=redoubt;1490870]Why?

When a cleric drops a greater command and the mobs all die without anyone getting hit, should the cleric feel they did not pull their weight because they got zero kills and didn't heal anyone?

When a bard facinates a room full of mobs and the tanks kill them efficiently and quickly while taking minimum damage, is the bard useless for have zero kills?

When my sorc runs through gianthold and stones darn near everything, but doesn't get a single kill on the books, is he useless? I know for a FACT, I had a HUGE impact on completeing the mission.

When my sorc disco balls all the mobs and your sorc drops a firewall on them while they are dancing and gets all the kills does your ep grow? Or can you see that it was teamwork that killed the mobs, regardless of what the kill counter says?

What is the obsession with the kill counter?

--I built my Sorc to be a damage dealer and killer. She isn't very good at crowd control or buffing. Therefore, if she doesn't have a high kill count, then she is not pulling her weight. I agree with everyone of your examples of party help without getting kills. I don't care who gets the kill, as long the mobs get killed and the party works together. For my build, it is the only way for me to gauge if I am being effective. I do have Flesh to Stone and don't get many kills in the Tor, either. The contributions others make the to group are just as valuable as the person who gets the final blow, and that should never be forgotten.

An appearance from Shade on my very own forum! I am honored. You are
a legend on the DDO forums, at least to me, I have been reading them
for quite awhile.
Your not the only legend here, but you are definately one of the half dozen! And I
thank you. I have enjoyed reading many of your posts, your knowlege is profound.

As far as shocking grasp...The problem with that for me usually is the
close generalization with monsters. Particularly with 8+1 STR and
wearing cloth as my only protection.

As far as pure damage modifier, it seems to make sense tho imo.

--As I got into higher levels, I found the Fire/Cold focus was useful, but not as effective as using Phantasmal Killer and Finger of Death. I have switched most of my stuff towards Spell Penetration and Arcane Lore. I have kept as much fire/cold to use around it. I am not doing max fire/cold damage, but can 1-shot lots of mobs and still have enough Firewall/Cone of Cold to do serious damage.

[bobbryan2]

Why?

When a cleric drops a greater command and the mobs all die without anyone getting hit, should the cleric feel they did not pull their weight because they got zero kills and didn't heal anyone?

When a bard facinates a room full of mobs and the tanks kill them efficiently and quickly while taking minimum damage, is the bard useless for have zero kills?

When my sorc runs through gianthold and stones darn near everything, but doesn't get a single kill on the books, is he useless? I know for a FACT, I had a HUGE impact on completeing the mission.

When my sorc disco balls all the mobs and your sorc drops a firewall on them while they are dancing and gets all the kills does your ep grow? Or can you see that it was teamwork that killed the mobs, regardless of what the kill counter says?

What is the obsession with the kill counter? All it tells you is lies.

If a sorc isn't leading the kill count, he's not doing his job. Or at the very least... isn't living up to his full potential. Clerics, bards, etc all have lower killing potential than the sorc. The best thing the Sorc can do for the party is kill 75% of everything they come across.

When a sorc can kill a room of enemies for the same SP as crowd controlling them... which is really the best thing the sorc could be doing?

I admit to throttling back and using crowd control sometimes... but only when I think the rest of the party is getting bored and wants to do something.

[Oreg]

If a sorc isn't leading the kill count, he's not doing his job. Or at the very least... isn't living up to his full potential. Clerics, bards, etc all have lower killing potential than the sorc. The best thing the Sorc can do for the party is kill 75% of everything they come across.

When a sorc can kill a room of enemies for the same SP as crowd controlling them... which is really the best thing the sorc could be doing?

I admit to throttling back and using crowd control sometimes... but only when I think the rest of the party is getting bored and wants to do something.

I guess that depends on what your goals are

1. To finish the quest as quickly and efficiently as possible. collect reward. move on to next quest. repeat

or

2. Have fun for a few hours running a few quests with friends or guildmates.

I know I use different tactics depending upon my mood and which category above I happen to be in that day.

[toord]

Though you're mostly right, depending on build emphasis, a sorcerer can be of more help as a crowd control tool (chram, hypnotise, wall of fire, etc.). This way he or she will probably not be in the lead of the kill count yet be as invaluable as any in a party. There are many ways a sorcerer can help other than by directly dealing damage.

Peace.

Well, maximizing Niac's isn't all that hard. 1st, maximize you Cha, as high as you can get. By level 5, and Drow, she was probably close to 25. 2nd, get an Ice lore and Glaciation/potency item. A level 1 will work, but as high as possible (Greater Ice Lore/Surperior Glaciation or Potency). 3rd take all the Fire/Cold enhancement lines, for both crit chance and damage. Finally, Maximize/Empower. With all this, on a crit, you should be able to take that Giant (technically Construct) down fast.

Generally, the stuff in STK doesn't save well against Niac's, so even if you don't have all that stuff, you should still have a good Niac's until you get to the very end.

and FWIW, I feel that if my Sorc DOESN'T get the highest kill count, then I haven't been pulling my weight. Rarely is not ahead of everyone at higher levels. Occasionally, in certain types of quests or at lower levels, she won't be.

[Fallout]

If a sorc isn't leading the kill count, he's not doing his job. Or at the very least... isn't living up to his full potential. Clerics, bards, etc all have lower killing potential than the sorc. The best thing the Sorc can do for the party is kill 75% of everything they come across.

When a sorc can kill a room of enemies for the same SP as crowd controlling them... which is really the best thing the sorc could be doing?

I admit to throttling back and using crowd control sometimes... but only when I think the rest of the party is getting bored and wants to do something.

My goal is to charm mobs and have misadventure as highest kill count.

[unionyes]

I never bother with looking at the kill counts. I have found with my sorc 14 that I can get them or not, depending on the party playstyle. If the tanks are blocking the doors and I am burning them up, then the counts are up there for me. If I am dancing balling the mobs while the tanks kill them while the cleric and I play pinochle waiting, then my kill counts are low, sometimes zero. It's not like the chests are empty if your kill counts are low.

For lower and mid levels, I used to get high counts with Niacs, especially if you wait for the fighters to hit them first to get aggro (a grand idea, BTW) and then Niacs them to death (usually one shot because they have been whacked once already). Also got higher kill counts with burning hands of all things, standing behind the door and saving manna by only blasting away if the tanks couldn't take them down quick, usually resulting in finishing them off all at once. I doubt that I had been the one to do ALL the damage, but I was the one that killed them.

Have also had low low counts at low levels when hypnoing and watching the mobs get killed one at a time. Of course that out of control greataxe swinger that you seem to get in pugs made me switch tactics, usually to the blast em all down method, meaning my counts go up.

[Galapas]

the sorc killed the boss with ONE cast of Niac's and
this was on ELITE.

I wonder if he's vulnerable to cold. I know he's supposed to only look like a fire giant, and be a construct, but maybe a dev screwed up.

I think it might be so. I come up with maximize(2x), empower(1.5x), superior glaciation + 2nd elemental enhancement (1.7x), crit (probably 2x) for about 10x damage at best. The 5d10 damage is really 5(5+d5) for an average of 40 damage, 10x40=400 or so for the best shot you'd expect. I thought he had more than 400 HP on elite. If he's vulnerable to cold, you could crit him for over 800.

[bobbryan2]

I guess that depends on what your goals are

1. To finish the quest as quickly and efficiently as possible. collect reward. move on to next quest. repeat

or

2. Have fun for a few hours running a few quests with friends or guildmates.

I know I use different tactics depending upon my mood and which category above I happen to be in that day.

Of course. But you don't throw phrases like "most efficent way" "optimal build" or "best way to play" around when you're going for 2. I have no problems with people that make sorcs that are crowd control oriented, or like to RP being a transmutationist... or something along those lines.

But too many people respond that 'kill counts' aren't important to whether or not you're contributing. A sorc contributes the BEST when he has almost all the kills. If you're playing different in a way to have more fun, or let everyone around you have fun... then more power to you. But that also doesn't mean it's the optimal way to do it.

That's all Im' saying. Do what makes you happy, first and foremost, of course.