Revisiting Sorceror v Wizard spell slots

[jkm]

as someone with 3 sorcs, there are a lot of mechanics in the game that conspire to defeat the versatility of a wizard.

for crowd control:
sorcs don't have the slots to carry much in the way of crowd control, so spells such as solid fog were always a big conundrum for a sorc (do i scroll sf or stoneskin). most of us just scrolled them so removing them from the vendors would have been a fairly crippling move. however, not only did they remove them but the nerfed the **** out of their duration making them pretty much useless in most player's eyes. heck, it often took 5 repeats of the words 'fight in the fog guys' before the nerf to actually get people to do it, now the fog is gone before the 3rd statement.

for utility:
it isn't a secret that 4th level spells are an absolute crunch on sorcs so the choice between stoneskin, pk, solid fog, ddoor, firewall, fear, and enervate used to be a 'okay, which do i scroll'. taking ddoor out of the brokers has forced most of us to take it as a spell as the scrolls drop about as a rarely as a vorpal. once again, nerfing the duration of solid fog made it an easy choice of spells to drop instead of making me sit at the sorc trainer for an hour figuring out which spell i could do without.

for direct damage:

what kills wizzy versatility here is that in order to be effective against mobs you need to invest a ton of points into a damage line. most sorcs skate by this with fire/ice and disintegrate for everything else.

in general:

to me, the thing that absolutely kills wizzies overall is the ddo method of handling spell resistance. the extra wizzie feats really mean nothing when sorcs are able to bypass spell resistance with brute force instead of having to waste feats/enhancements on spell penetration instead of metamagics.

another fact that kills them is how bad the summoned pets are. holy ****, they are bad.

some thoughts for making wizzies more versatile:

double the current time on the lingering spells so that solid fog and the like become a valid spell choice again. this will bring back crowd control into the game and once again give spell swappers a choice. yank all of the lingering spells out of the brokers and wizzies become important.

change the wizzy damage enhancement lines (not the critical lines)
so instead of wizard fire/ice 1 through 4
wizard fire/ice 1 (2 aps) for 20%
wizard fire/ice 2 (4 aps) for 40%

this would allow them to spread more damage across more lines and allows for swappage to make sense from a damage perspective

[MysticTheurge]

Then, there is the added benefit of fast casting with metamagics. And that is balanced by Sorcs getting less spells. Take away fast cast on metamagicked spells and you can add Sorc spell slots. But, of course, at that point, you Sorcs and Wizzies become too similar (except for difference in SP pool). So, leave it with less spells for Sorcs with their current benefits.

Bringing metamagics into the equation is kind of a moot point because they're ridiculously broken for all spellcasters.

I'll take slow metamagic casting on sorcerers just as soon as wizards have to prepare metamagic'ed spells in advance and use a higher spell slot to do so.

[Jay203]

The swap out is a mechanism though to compensate for

1. changes to spells
   
   • Turbine modify spells occasionaly thus the power and results of said spells value changes. ie.) solid fog - near worthless nowcompared to other cc spells.
2. changes to the game environment
   
   • New content places the value of a spell as do changes to old content being modified. ie.) new mob immunities
3. Diversity for the capped toon.
   
   • Sorc and bard are allowed to swap lower level spells at every level up in PnP... however since you're capped you cannot do this until the next cap raise, thus you're making someone wait a long long time to change something - even though they pretty much had virtually ran enough quest (tossed time/xp away) where they could have switched it months back had the cap been 20.

I point this out because it falls in line with the respec systems... prior to the respec for spells I have seen people continually re-roll bards and sorcs constantly as they leveled, I also seen people re-roll every class before the respec system... I've also seen people get so frustrated with not being able to adjust to the changes in the game that they quit rather than re-roll <- prior to respec systems.

well, nothing is ever going to satisfy everyone in a MMO that will continuously put out new contents. Although the rate Sorcs get to change spells are a lot more often than they were supposed to in the first place. I'm not saying that designers should revert back to the actual D&D rule which forces the Sorcs to stick with their spells until they lvl up, bur more along the lines of longer waiting time to change spells. (i do mean MUCH longer waiting time, if someone wants to experiment with spells, they should have gone with wizard first. Sorcs are meant to be rolled by people who knows what kind of spells they want and are willing to stick with it.)
just my 2 lumps of coal (those stupid slot-consuming "rewards" rawr~!)

[drachine]

the 5 spell slot issue for 1st and 2nd level spell is a negligible change for the sorcerer. the truth is, the more spell that are introduced into the game, and every mod there are more spells, the more the wizard looks like a better option then the sorcerer. in PnP there is no question because there are so many spells, it's ridiculous. to be locked into a few is a huge drawback no matter how fast you can cast them. having a few spells just sucks.

maybe not as bad as PnP, but we are already running into instances where you would prefer a spell that sorcerers generally don't carry. Dimension Door are good examples Tumble. i'm not going to waste my dimension door scrolls on anything but a raid or avoiding death penalty. sorcerers are cool, but they are going to find themselves in that position of "Do you have XXXX?" and they will have to say "No". wizards will make a comeback.

[Seneca_Windforge]

the 5 spell slot issue for 1st and 2nd level spell is a negligible change for the sorcerer. the truth is, the more spell that are introduced into the game, and every mod there are more spells, the more the wizard looks like a better option then the sorcerer. in PnP there is no question because there are so many spells, it's ridiculous. to be locked into a few is a huge drawback no matter how fast you can cast them. having a few spells just sucks.

maybe not as bad as PnP, but we are already running into instances where you would prefer a spell that sorcerers generally don't carry. Dimension Door are good examples Tumble. i'm not going to waste my dimension door scrolls on anything but a raid or avoiding death penalty. sorcerers are cool, but they are going to find themselves in that position of "Do you have XXXX?" and they will have to say "No". wizards will make a comeback.

The thing is though, sorcerers *should* have to make hard choices -- that's one of the disadvantages you get for having 50% more spell points and faster casting speed. Wizards *should* be able to pull out spells like Greater Teleport, Dimension Door, and other stuff that Sorcerers don't have room for. I think there's a lot to be said for the fact that Sorcerers can more easily unload spells like Finger of Death and Phantasmal Killer over and over rapidly during the quest.

Also, many of the new spells that have been (or will be) introduced for already existing spell levels (ie Ooze Puppet, Master's Touch, Merfolk's Blessing) just aren't All That. I mean, it would be nice to load up Merfolk's Blessing for a swimming boost for the Crucible, but again -- the ability to do that is an advantage to being a Wizard.

Basically, do you want to be able to cast a few spells over and over quickly, or do you want to have a more limited SP pool but have the ability to easily cast a wide variety of spells? Choose your arcane class accordingly.

[drachine]

Also, many of the new spells that have been (or will be) introduced for already existing spell levels (ie Ooze Puppet, Master's Touch, Merfolk's Blessing) just aren't All That.

I agree. Sorcerers should make the hard choices. But there is a rules precedent for expecting that sorcerers should get 5 1st and 5 2nd levels spells listed at the beginning of the thread and in the rules. And many of the spells in DDO, do not have much use yet so it's not a problem. I don't think this will always be the case. Also, we have already seen hints that more will be introduced. Some possibilities are:

1ST-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
True Strike: +20 on your next attack roll.
Chromatic Orb: Summons orbs of varying hue that can be hurled at opponents with varying effects.
Color Spray: Knocks unconscious, blinds, and/or stuns weak creatures.
Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Reduce Person: Humanoid creature halves in size.

2ND-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Choke: Spectral hands appear around the throak of the victim causing damage unless they save, die or the duration expires.
Protection from Arrows: Subject immune to most ranged attacks.
Summon Swarm: Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
Hideous Laughter: Subject loses actions for 1 round/level.
Darkness: 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Mirror Image: Creates decoy duplicates of you (1d4 +1 per three levels, max 8).
Levitate: Subject moves up and down at your direction.
Pyrotechnics: Turns fire into blinding light or choking smoke.
Rope Trick: As many as eight creatures hide in extradimensional space.
Spider Climb: Grants ability to walk on walls and ceilings.

Also, DDO keeps inventing spells that aren't even in PnP as we have seen. So this list could be doubled or tripled.

Meanwhile, sorcerers are still stuck at 4 1st and 4 2nd level spells when the rules state they should have 5. Allowing sorcs to choose Color Spray and Mirror Image really isn't going to change the balance of the game.

Wizards on the other hand will be able to cast any of these spells as the situation calls for. And they should. Keep in mind, that higher level spells will be introduced as well that sorcerers will not have either. And the trend is that scrolls won't be as available or useful in the future, which I agree with as well.

Just sayin, give sorcs their 5 1st and 5 2nd levels at the appropriate level like the PnP rules state they should have.

[jkm]

don't forget keen edge

[Soul-Shaker]

Asp, go look at the PnP rule books or the online 3.5 srd.

A 20th level sorc should have 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 for his/her spells.

A 20th level wizard should have 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 for his/her spells.

So it looks like the sorcerors are following the wizard known spell table. If that's the case then sorcerors will end up with more spells at higher levels than they would in PnP which is fine with me.

My original question was this - Have we played with the system for so long that it doesn't really bother us or did everyone not realized the difference between PnP and DDO?

That is list of spells known of a sorcs known spells vs wizards spells per day and spells known vs spell known. Also PnP wizards dont have spontanous casting so instead of letting them cast from there entire spell book in DDO they let them cast from a higher list. IE not having extend on but clicking on haste which is liked with extend and casts a extended haste and does not toggle on extend.

Also a 20th lvl wizard lets say with 26 int pnp spells known (choosing different spell per spell per day).
Bonus spells for 26 int
2/2/2/2/1/1/1/1
Total list
6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4

As you can see, a wizard actually can mem much more different spells per day vs sorcs known spells. Also there are more feats to increase the number of spells per day which can increase a wizards spell selection even more per day.

I also consider sorcs losing from pnp conversion over the deal of metamagics. Why do I say that, because a sorc can spontaneous cast with or without metamagics instantly while a wizard must have it prepared. I hope they give sorcs in DDO one day the option to link metamagics to a spell to make it more spontaneous.

I also hope that we can one day place lower level spells in a higher slot(but wont increase benefits due to slot used). IE FW in the fifth level slot but its still considered a 4th lvl spell and not a 5th.

[GlassCannon]

Just sayin, give sorcs their 5 1st and 5 2nd levels at the appropriate level like the PnP rules state they should have.

Since the devs keep inventing cool spells, why not be at least somewhat fair and give 5 slots to all levels for a sorc? Just drop a little more SP in the wizard's bucket for his/her INT modifier and we're balanced.

I will say it again and again and again.

The SRD...

is outdated.

[oronisi]

Since the devs keep inventing cool spells, why not be at least somewhat fair and give 5 slots to all levels for a sorc? Just drop a little more SP in the wizard's bucket for his/her INT modifier and we're balanced.

I will say it again and again and again.

The SRD...

is outdated.

Ok, sorcs can have 5 spell slots per level if wizards get 2000 sp and double usage from sp items.

Honestly, have you sorcs played a wizard?? Their casting is slow, their spellpoint pool is abysmal compared to sorcs, we don't get 400 sp from skiver....and the 'flexibility' of being able to swap out spells is nothing. I hardly ever need to swap out my spells. I have like 3 'flex slots' that I shift around, and that's it. If I could only swap spells once every 3 days, that would not change a **** thing for me on my wiz. It would just be a mild inconvenience.

So as I see it, the ONLY benefits wizards have are 3 metamagic feats and more spell slots. While sorcs have faster casting, 40% more spellpoints, and double the benefit from sp items. So I'd have to ask, why are you trying to take away one of the wizards only benefits??

[Aspenor]

The SRD...

is not fully applicable to DDO.

My opinion

Just because it's in the PnP rulebook doesn't mean it is best for DDO balance.

Turbine has balanced wizards and sorcerers very well, IMHO. A wizard determines the best spell for a situation, and maximizes his effectiveness via versatility. A sorcerer powers through.

Spell slots don't need to be adjusted, they are fine as-is, coming from a highly experienced wizard AND sorceror.

In fact wizards could actually use a bit of a boost. More spell selection would be very nice, and would increase the usefulness of a wizard. Right now, there are only a few useful spells per level, making sorcerors with more SP and faster casting rule the roost.

[MysticTheurge]

In fact wizards could actually use a bit of a boost. More spell selection would be very nice, and would increase the usefulness of a wizard. Right now, there are only a few useful spells per level, making sorcerors with more SP and faster casting rule the roost.

Honestly, before more spells, I'd say more metamagics.

The 4 metamagics that wizards get for free could be a really big weight on their side of the scale, if there were more than a couple metamagics that anyone needed/wanted.