Revisiting Sorceror v Wizard spell slots

[MysticTheurge]

Still, versatility is only marginally beneficial in DDO, with the extremely combat intensive gameplay. I don't feel it's that big of a benefit.

You mean a wizard's natural versatility? Or you mean the improved spellcasting versatility from converting to the spell point system?

Because while I might agree on the former, I'd strongly disagree with the latter.

The ability to determine, on the fly, what you're going to cast from your list is more in DDO's combat-oriented campaign than it is in many other situations. You need to cast Resist on everyone? Go ahead. You want to Haste every three-four minutes? Go ahead. You want to cast Finger of Death on every monster you run across? Go ahead.

These are not things a wizard can normally do without greatly sacrificing is natural versatility.

[Aspenor]

You mean a wizard's natural versatility? Or you mean the improved spellcasting versatility from converting to the spell point system?

Because while I might agree on the former, I'd strongly disagree with the latter.

The ability to determine, on the fly, what you're going to cast from your list is more in DDO's combat-oriented campaign than it is in many other situations. You need to cast Resist on everyone? Go ahead. You want to Haste every three-four minutes? Go ahead. You want to cast Finger of Death on every monster you run across? Go ahead.

These are not things a wizard can normally do without greatly sacrificing is natural versatility.

IMHO the versatility benefit is less so in combat, a sorceror can accomplish all three of the above things with just one pool of spell points.

The versatility benefit is much more so in PnP where the wizard can memorize battle spells for battles, and non-battle spells for other times. Scrying for example, or using stealth spells. In PnP you come across a wide array of situations where that versatility is amazingly useful.

In DDO, where the only thing of importance is how quick can you incapacitate or dispatch a group of monsters, the usefulness of that versatility becomes marginally less.

[Luthen]

I'm talking about the fact that IF the devs are using the wizard spells per day from the srd to determine the sorceror known spells in DDO then sorcerors will get 1 more spell than they should for 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells at upper character levels.

Admittedly this isn't a huge thing at all. We're only talking about them adding 1 more 1st and 2nd level spell for sorcerors but it would still be a nice little present.

So the ability to cast spells without much chance of interruption isn't a "little present"? The ability to get double the benefit from spell point items isn't a nice "little present"? It's a trade off Yaga. you get some serious benefits but have to give up some perks to get them. Wizards on the other hand can memorize more spells and change them at will but we have fewer spell points and, unless we have the quicken feat, are more likely to be interrupted.

I am a cleric by nature. I do have a wizard and enjoy him. I have dabbled with a Sorcerer but didn;t like the limitation on spell selection. that's my preference. i give up some benefits for others. You do the same. If anything I'd like to see Wizards get a 1.25x increase on SP items when Sorcerers get 2x the benefit. Puts Wizards above clerics but still below Sorcerers.

[MysticTheurge]

IMHO the versatility benefit is less so in combat, a sorceror can accomplish all three of the above things with just one pool of spell points.

Right, the sorcerer can do it too in DDO, but the sorcerer's a lot closer to being able to do it in (standard) D&D.

The versatility benefit is much more so in PnP where the wizard can memorize battle spells for battles, and non-battle spells for other times. Scrying for example, or using stealth spells. In PnP you come across a wide array of situations where that versatility is amazingly useful.

In DDO, where the only thing of importance is how quick can you incapacitate or dispatch a group of monsters, the usefulness of that versatility becomes marginally less.

Here, you're talking about the wizards natural versatility, and like I said, I can agree to a point.

Though keep in mind, that in some ways that can be a drawback for wizards. You don't get to prepare some battle spells and some non-battle spells and then spend your SPs on the battle spells if you never see non-battle situations. In a spell slot system, you've memorized those non-battle spells and that's that, if you don't need them during the day, they're wasted.

The sorcerer doesn't have that problem. If he knows some battle spells and some non-battle spells of a given level, and there are days where he doesn't need his non-battle spells, he can spend all of his spells per day on the battle spells.

[Aspenor]

Right, the sorcerer can do it too in DDO, but the sorcerer's a lot closer to being able to do it in (standard) D&D.



Here, you're talking about the wizards natural versatility, and like I said, I can agree to a point.

Though keep in mind, that in some ways that can be a drawback for wizards. You don't get to prepare some battle spells and some non-battle spells and then spend your SPs on the battle spells if you never see non-battle situations. In a spell slot system, you've memorized those non-battle spells and that's that, if you don't need them during the day, they're wasted.

The sorcerer doesn't have that problem. If he knows some battle spells and some non-battle spells of a given level, and there are days where he doesn't need his non-battle spells, he can spend all of his spells per day on the battle spells.

Thanks for the explanation, MT, but uh....where's your point in all that DnD jargon? I see evidence but no conclusion and/or argument.

[MysticTheurge]

I see evidence but no conclusion and/or argument.

The increase in power that a wizard (or cleric) gets from a spell point system is significantly greater than the increase in power that a sorcerer (or bard) gets from a spell point system.

In terms of variance from D&D:

Wizards get increased power from on-the-fly spellcasting due to the spell point system.
Sorcerers get faster cooldowns (which, as a reminder, were just recently toned down to be not as fast as they were before).

Both classes benefit from not having to prepare/learn non-combat spells.

But you guys are arguing that wizards should also get more spells memorized per day and sorcerers should get fewer. I'm not seeing the balance.

[Aspenor]

I'm not seeing the balance.

n00bsAUce!

From experiencing both the wizard and sorceror casting spectrums (I have what, 2 wizards and 4 sorcerors?) very deeply I can say that sorcerors' fast casting is IMHO, DDO-wise, a greater benefit than versatility, and that the extra SP sorcs have also is a greater benefit than wizards' extra spell slots.

At least that's the case for most players and their playstyle.

Without relating exact casting times and such, it's hard to describe why I assert this. It's all a matter of opinion, I guess. I find that the increased casting speeds and SP for sorcerors are much more useful than a wizard's extra spell slots per level and memorizing ability.

[drachine]

it would be nice to know from a dev why the sorc has been limited to 4 1st and 4 2nd level spells.

as many have stated it would bring the class in lien with rules without unbalancing the game.

i respect the argument that sorcerers are more powerful, but i believe this will not always be the case as more and more and more spells are introduced into the game. sorcerer will still be desired, but as more quests are introduced, things will become more situational. You will need a tumble spell or whatever it is to save the party a great deal of headache.

and some other class like the wizard will have to provide it simply because sorcerers will generally not take such spells.

also, until someone addresses it, it will be an issue that keeps coming up because of the rules much like rogue special abilities choices at high lievels.

[MysticTheurge]

From experiencing both the wizard and sorceror casting spectrums (I have what, 2 wizards and 4 sorcerors?) very deeply I can say that sorcerors' fast casting is IMHO, DDO-wise, a greater benefit than versatility, and that the extra SP sorcs have also is a greater benefit than wizards' extra spell slots.

Yes, but you're comparing those two things in a vacuum without viewing how they differ from D&D.

If you're going to compare the two classes wholly in DDO, you need to compare them fully.

How much of an advantage is the Wizards 3 (soon to be 4) free metamagic feats?
How will this play out at higher levels where wizards will (and should) have more higher level spells than sorcerers?

Honestly, guys, that's what I'm not getting. No one's saying sorcerers should have more spells than wizards across the board. In fact, they shouldn't. But they should have 1 more first and second level spell slot (heck, wizards can keep their 5 slots for all I care). This should be more than made up for by the fact that they can't ever get more than 3 spells of 6th through 9th level where the wizard can get 4.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Right, the sorcerer can do it too in DDO, but the sorcerer's a lot closer to being able to do it in (standard) D&D.

That is part of the problem. Sorcs are pretty much SP casters in the spellslot system. So, the translation to a full SP system has few differences.

The increase in power that a wizard (or cleric) gets from a spell point system is significantly greater than the increase in power that a sorcerer (or bard) gets from a spell point system.

Remember too, that Sorcs also gain spell level flexibility in a SP system. It's not just Wiz and Clerics who get all the benefits. And you are continually forgetting the fast casting boost for Sorcs. It is a gift to balance against Wizzies also getting flexibility of spell choice in the SP system.

[MysticTheurge]

Remember too, that Sorcs also gain spell level flexibility in a SP system. It's not just Wiz and Clerics who get all the benefits.

Right, that's why I said that sorcerers get an increase in power too, it's just not as much of an increase as wizards and clerics get.

And you are continually forgetting the fast casting boost for Sorcs. It is a gift to balance against Wizzies also getting flexibility of spell choice in the SP system.

I'm not forgetting it. I keep mentioning it. And I keep mentioning that it's a decent balance for the flexibility that the SP system adds to the wizard.

But it can't then also be a balancing factor for wizards getting more spells and sorcerers getting fewer spells. Unless you really think it's that powerful. In which case, I suppose, we simply disagree.

[GlassCannon]

Yes, but you're comparing those two things in a vacuum without viewing how they differ from D&D.

If you're going to compare the two classes wholly in DDO, you need to compare them fully.

How much of an advantage is the Wizards 3 (soon to be 4) free metamagic feats?
How will this play out at higher levels where wizards will (and should) have more higher level spells than sorcerers?

Honestly, guys, that's what I'm not getting. No one's saying sorcerers should have more spells than wizards across the board. In fact, they shouldn't. But they should have 1 more first and second level spell slot (heck, wizards can keep their 5 slots for all I care). This should be more than made up for by the fact that they can't ever get more than 3 spells of 6th through 9th level where the wizard can get 4.

The difference in metamagics being free is GIGANTIC. What makes it even worse is their spell versatility. You can't make something better by just making it stronger to balance it with something more flexible and versatile. That's like giving a go-kart a V-12 to balance it out with an All-Terrain Vehicle. There simply is no balance in "more spellpoints to pointlessly use the wrong slepp over and over with!" and "They cast those pointless spells faster too!".

All in all Wizards are getting more than their fair share here. Clerics have felt nerf after nerf and Sorcerers are now feeling the brutal pinch.

Eventually everyone will play a wizard, because, face it... they are the most loved class in all of D&D(free feats... versatility... extra this, extra that... don't have difficulty with metamagics...).

I'd like everyone to stop calling for a nerf to the already quite well nerfed sorcs.

To balance sorcs I think they ought to get free Spell Focus feats(in addition to 5 spell slots for all levels).

[drachine]

To balance sorcs I think they ought to get free Spell Focus feats(in addition to 5 spell slots for all levels).

That's just crazy powerful chief. The original point of the post was 5 first level spells and five 2nd level spells the way the PnP rules state. At least their is a basis for that. There is no basis for just giving additional spells or feats per level at all levels for sorcerers.

They should stick to the existing list. I don't think that would make the classes equal in the long run, but they are not supposed to be. Bring the 1st and 2nd level spells (5 of each) is simply the rules of the game. That's the point of this post.

In line with that, clerics should get spells bonuses for high wisdom and so on. It's a good thing that DDO is based on DnD, otherwise anyone could change anything however they see fit. It's not going to be totally the same obviously, but the rules have worked for the game for years, long before DDO was around. They should stick to them.

[Jay203]

well, i'll say give the sorcs their extra spell slots
however, in return, they don't get to swap out spells like they currently can.
if you want the PnP way, you get all the ups and downs, not just the pros

[Emili]

well, i'll say give the sorcs their extra spell slots
however, in return, they don't get to swap out spells like they currently can.
if you want the PnP way, you get all the ups and downs, not just the pros

The swap out is a mechanism though to compensate for

1. changes to spells
   
   • Turbine modify spells occasionaly thus the power and results of said spells value changes. ie.) solid fog - near worthless nowcompared to other cc spells.
2. changes to the game environment
   
   • New content places the value of a spell as do changes to old content being modified. ie.) new mob immunities
3. Diversity for the capped toon.
   
   • Sorc and bard are allowed to swap lower level spells at every level up in PnP... however since you're capped you cannot do this until the next cap raise, thus you're making someone wait a long long time to change something - even though they pretty much had virtually ran enough quest (tossed time/xp away) where they could have switched it months back had the cap been 20.

I point this out because it falls in line with the respec systems... prior to the respec for spells I have seen people continually re-roll bards and sorcs constantly as they leveled, I also seen people re-roll every class before the respec system... I've also seen people get so frustrated with not being able to adjust to the changes in the game that they quit rather than re-roll <- prior to respec systems.

[GlassCannon]

Jay, as Emili just pointed out: Any time you put an ever changing environment around someone, then put them in a set one-time-only setup iron-walled-prison, they feel caged and leave. It's simple. Do not confine people. They will leave rather than accept things as they are.

Why must so many utterly hate Sorcs so much?

[GlassCannon]

That's just crazy powerful chief. The original point of the post was 5 first level spells and five 2nd level spells the way the PnP rules state. At least their is a basis for that. There is no basis for just giving additional spells or feats per level at all levels for sorcerers.

They should stick to the existing list. I don't think that would make the classes equal in the long run, but they are not supposed to be. Bring the 1st and 2nd level spells (5 of each) is simply the rules of the game. That's the point of this post.

In line with that, clerics should get spells bonuses for high wisdom and so on. It's a good thing that DDO is based on DnD, otherwise anyone could change anything however they see fit. It's not going to be totally the same obviously, but the rules have worked for the game for years, long before DDO was around. They should stick to them.

D&D cannot fit into an MMO format at this current point in technological progress. Turbine is trying to put an entire universe into a tiny little box that runs very very slow. Literally.

As for 'crazy powerful'... I was thinking one free spell focus(not greater) per 8 levels.

[Emili]

Jay, as Emili just pointed out: Any time you put an ever changing environment around someone, then put them in a set one-time-only setup iron-walled-prison, they feel caged and leave. It's simple. Do not confine people. They will leave rather than accept things as they are.

Why must so many utterly hate Sorcs so much?

I do not think they hate the sorc so much ... but rather experience the power influx differences between it and the other classes.
The major problem with DDO is the wide shifts in class power which changes dramatically from cap to cap and with every patch. DDO poises problems in a number of ways due to enhancement lines based on class and race supporting and pigeon-holing the function of such classes. In example the elemental spells currently rank among the highest dps output for caster classes, the versitily of a wizard switching out fireball or cone of cold for an acid spell or electric spell is not so significantly helpful to them in a quest when thier enhancement line is spec'd hard elemental. Couple that with the fact they are often expected or even sometimes demanded to support in more of a utility role via buffs and carry less SP and slower casting they are not in position to be feel they contribute as much in a mmo since the idea behind it is to eliminate the mob. This is the general feel of the average wizard as I've experienced over the course of two years.

In fact I had a discussion about this thread with a guildie just an hour ago... he pretty much laughed about it stating that his main - a wizard - is a disappointment to him as his sorc is nearing his wizard's level and is such a better casting class... basically stating he feels much more useful in quests on his sorc then he ever had on his wizard.

I've always had been more melee oriented - I've two fighters, a bard, a barbarian, a pally, a cleric, ranger and a multi classed ranger/rogue... I wanted to roll a true arcane caster so I asked the casters of the guild - about 50 people, hands the largest percentage told me roll sorc. These were people who had experience with both classes. I rolled a wizard however because my best friend told me - roll a wizard to get used to it and to play with the spells but when you feel comfortable - shelf it and roll a sorc. To me that tells me a lot of what the attitude towards the arcane classes are among the general community.

We see a lot of threads up here about nerf them and empower me... this is because of the ever changing landscape of the game environment and tools of each class - not to say DDO should remain stagnant, however it seems to me that even though the devs seem to try to balance things out a tad... we've no clue of it's real impact until it's put into practice.

I and quite a few people agree they should adhere to the sorc's spell slots as per DnD. However, I do not forsee the free meta-magic feat slots of a wizard and it's ability to switch out spells as near an equivalent value as the sorc's quick cooldown and higher sp pool.

[GlassCannon]

Fast cooldowns are not as effectually beneficial as one might think when alternative rotational spells can be used. I would like to see more spells added to the game for the sole purpose of the wizard vs sorcerer theme to show its true colors and start really making some progress.

I am raising an acid/lightning sorceress and she is amazingly powerful. At level 9 she fired off a critical Melf's Acid Arrow that hit for 85 damage, and was extended. Had it dealt 85 damage per 2 seconds for 72 seconds(that's 36x85), and the skeleton archer actually had 3,000 HP, she would have dealt a full 3,060 damage with less than 100 SP at level 9. Granted, that would require lots of tactical fleeing like a crazed lunatic to pull off with most monsters out there(don't even think about running from a Wheep.. NOTHING gets away from those broken b*stards, even chars spec'd for moving like greased lightning can't escape the endless unblockable hits that bypass all AC), and it would also have required the spell to continue to roll high damage totals(in my combat log it showed the damage dropped to the 30's and 50's), but that's still a LOT of damage.

No, I don't have a wizard yet. I don't have the char slots for it. No, I'm not rerolling until the devs make a reroll button like Kargon requested. Some of them just have too much raid loot(and odd +2 tomes applied) to delete.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I'm not forgetting it. I keep mentioning it. And I keep mentioning that it's a decent balance for the flexibility that the SP system adds to the wizard.

But it can't then also be a balancing factor for wizards getting more spells and sorcerers getting fewer spells. Unless you really think it's that powerful. In which case, I suppose, we simply disagree.

Then, there is the added benefit of fast casting with metamagics. And that is balanced by Sorcs getting less spells. Take away fast cast on metamagicked spells and you can add Sorc spell slots. But, of course, at that point, you Sorcs and Wizzies become too similar (except for difference in SP pool). So, leave it with less spells for Sorcs with their current benefits.