Revisiting Sorceror v Wizard spell slots

[Yaga_Nub]

Now that we've been playing for a while does anyone really care anymore about sorcerors getting only 4 spell slots for each level of spells since it means that we'll get 1 more 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level slot than wizards will?

[Aspenor]

Now that we've been playing for a while does anyone really care anymore about sorcerors getting only 4 spell slots for each level of spells since it means that we'll get 1 more 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level slot than wizards will?

What are you talking about Yaga? Wizards will have more.

[GuitarHero]

where are you getting your info, OP?

[Kraldor]

Sorc spell table:

Level   1       2       3       4       5       6       7       8       9
14th  	5  	5  	4  	4  	3  	2  	1  	—       —
15th 	5 	5 	4 	4 	4 	3 	2 	—       —
16th 	5 	5 	4 	4 	4 	3 	2 	1 	—
17th 	5 	5 	4 	4 	4 	3 	3 	2 	—
18th 	5 	5 	4 	4 	4 	3 	3 	2 	1
19th 	5 	5 	4 	4 	4 	3 	3 	3 	2
20th 	5 	5 	4 	4 	4 	3 	3 	3 	3

edit: beaten by guitarhero

[Oreg]

Nvm

[Yaga_Nub]

DDO uses the wizards spells per day table for sorcerors (well sort of).

Sorcerors are supposed to get 5 spells of each spell level when they reach the appropriate level.

For instance, a 7th level sorceror is supposed to get 5 1st level spells, 3 2nd level spells and 2 3rd level spells. But we don't get 5 first level spells. We get 4. So unless I have a huge bug on my character that I need to report we aren't getting all the spells that we should.

Similarly, wizards are never supposed to get more than 4 spells per level yet they get 5 in DDO. So it looks like the devs got the sorceror known spells table and the wizard spells per day table backwards.

[Yaga_Nub]

where are you getting your info, OP?

I'm comparing the character sheet of my sorceror in DDO to the srd.

[Yaga_Nub]

What are you talking about Yaga? Wizards will have more.

I'm talking about the fact that IF the devs are using the wizard spells per day from the srd to determine the sorceror known spells in DDO then sorcerors will get 1 more spell than they should for 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells at upper character levels.

Admittedly this isn't a huge thing at all. We're only talking about them adding 1 more 1st and 2nd level spell for sorcerors but it would still be a nice little present.

[Aspenor]

I'm talking about the fact that IF the devs are using the wizard spells per day from the srd to determine the sorceror known spells in DDO then sorcerors will get 1 more spell than they should for 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th level spells at upper character levels.

Admittedly this isn't a huge thing at all. We're only talking about them adding 1 more 1st and 2nd level spell for sorcerors but it would still be a nice little present.

I'm pretty sure they're not.

Wizards have maximum 5 slots per spell level, sorcerors have maximum 4 slots per spell level. (In DDO, of course).

Wizards have at least one more spell slot in each spell level than sorcs, across the board.

[Yaga_Nub]

I'm pretty sure they're not.

Wizards have maximum 5 slots per spell level, sorcerors have maximum 4 slots per spell level. (In DDO, of course).

Wizards have at least one more spell slot in each spell level than sorcs, across the board.

Asp, go look at the PnP rule books or the online 3.5 srd.

A 20th level sorc should have 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 for his/her spells.

A 20th level wizard should have 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 for his/her spells.

So it looks like the sorcerors are following the wizard known spell table. If that's the case then sorcerors will end up with more spells at higher levels than they would in PnP which is fine with me.

My original question was this - Have we played with the system for so long that it doesn't really bother us or did everyone not realized the difference between PnP and DDO?

[dragnmoon]

This is the difference...

I wizard gets to cast more spells a day from their larger list based on high Int... and they get to know all spells..in D&D

A sorcerer gets to cast more spells per day past on a High chr... But do not get to Know more spells for a high chr...in D&D

To make up this difference in DDO since they do not memorize for wizards in DDO and they are based on SPs instead of spell per day.. they gave wizards more Spell slots..and sorcerers more spell points..

[Yaga_Nub]

This is the difference...

I wizard gets to cast more spells a day from their larger list based on high Int... and they get to know all spells..in D&D

A sorcerer gets to cast more spells per day past on a High chr... But do not get to Know more spells for a high chr...in D&D

To make up this difference in DDO since they do not memorize for wizards in DDO and they are based on SPs instead of spell per day.. they gave wizards more Spell slots..and sorcerers more spell points..

I absolutely realize this. I'm just wondering if anyone really cares or if sorcs out there would like to get another level 1 and 2 spell slot since it seems this would not be unbalancing.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I still care. No, an extra Level 1 and 2 spell slot really doesn't matter in the big picture. But, Sorcerors don't need it. Look at what they do have. Sorcs have ridiculously more benefits in terms of faster casting speed, faster cool downs, double SP from items, and more SP from enhancements. You can change spells every 3 days instead of only on even numbered level ups (and at least 2 levels lower than highest spell level). And the kicker, Sorcs should have slower, Wizard casting speed when using metamagics. As soon as you slow down for metamagicked spells, I'll be proud to champion your cause for more spell slots.

[oronisi]

I absolutely realize this. I'm just wondering if anyone really cares or if sorcs out there would like to get another level 1 and 2 spell slot since it seems this would not be unbalancing.

I think Sorcs are just fine and don't need any more love over their wizard counterparts, thank you.

[Aspenor]

Asp, go look at the PnP rule books or the online 3.5 srd.

A 20th level sorc should have 5/5/4/4/4/3/3/3/3 for his/her spells.

A 20th level wizard should have 4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4/4 for his/her spells.

So it looks like the sorcerors are following the wizard known spell table. If that's the case then sorcerors will end up with more spells at higher levels than they would in PnP which is fine with me.

My original question was this - Have we played with the system for so long that it doesn't really bother us or did everyone not realized the difference between PnP and DDO?

Those are spells memoried per day, not the same as spells known by a sorc.

DDO isn't using any template from DnD for their spell slots system, they are balancing spells per day and spells known in their own way.

[Yaga_Nub]

Those are spells memoried per day, not the same as spells known by a sorc.

DDO isn't using any template from DnD for their spell slots system, they are balancing spells per day and spells known in their own way.

Well until a dev says something we'll never know Asp. We can only guess.

[Aspenor]

Well until a dev says something we'll never know Asp. We can only guess.

Something.

See? I'm right.

[Yaga_Nub]

Something.

See? I'm right.

Since when did you become a dev?

And you missed the dodge-a-thon last night.

Rameses got mad when he lost.

Of course I only lasted about halfway through but at the rate I'm moving up in about 3 more contests I'll actually win.

[GramercyRiff]

I still care. No, an extra Level 1 and 2 spell slot really doesn't matter in the big picture. But, Sorcerors don't need it. Look at what they do have. Sorcs have ridiculously more benefits in terms of faster casting speed, faster cool downs, double SP from items, and more SP from enhancements. You can change spells every 3 days instead of only on even numbered level ups (and at least 2 levels lower than highest spell level). And the kicker, Sorcs should have slower, Wizard casting speed when using metamagics. As soon as you slow down for metamagicked spells, I'll be proud to champion your cause for more spell slots.

Agreed. Wizards are the masters of metamagic, or should be. It takes a full round action for a Sorcerer to normally apply metamagic feats to spells. Because of this and many other reasons (versatility actually being the biggest disparity), it's widely known that Wizards are far superior to Sorcerers in PnP. It's always been my thoery that Turbine overcompensated the relative weakness of Sorcerers compared to Wizards. However, they failed to grasp that with such a limited spell selection as we have in DDO, the gap between Sorcerers and Wizards decreases greatly. On top of the extremely limited spell selection, they gave Sorcerers faster casting (when it should be slower using metamagic), faster cooldowns (this one makes some sense), and double SP from items (no big deal here really).

So no, don't give Sorcerers any more help. They work quite nicely as it stands. Don't bother with Wizards either, as they work quite nicely as well. There are other more pressing issues to deal with, like the slowdown in melee attacks as we level. The inherent disparity between melee and casters is inevitable, but Turbine should at least attempt to close that ever widening gap instead of fostering it. So when melee's 5th swing is fixed (and overall attack speed period), and ranged works much better than it does (this is in progress), and we get more options for melee, then maybe, Tuirbine should address this "slight" to the Sorcerer.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Agreed. Wizards are the masters of metamagic, or should be. It takes a full round action for a Sorcerer to normally apply metamagic feats to spells. Because of this and many other reasons (versatility actually being the biggest disparity), it's widely known that Wizards are far superior to Sorcerers in PnP. It's always been my thoery that Turbine overcompensated the relative weakness of Sorcerers compared to Wizards. However, they failed to grasp that with such a limited spell selection as we have in DDO, the gap between Sorcerers and Wizards decreases greatly. On top of the extremely limited spell selection, they gave Sorcerers faster casting (when it should be slower using metamagic), faster cooldowns (this one makes some sense), and double SP from items (no big deal here really).

So no, don't give Sorcerers any more help. They work quite nicely as it stands. Don't bother with Wizards either, as they work quite nicely as well. There are other more pressing issues to deal with, like the slowdown in melee attacks as we level. The inherent disparity between melee and casters is inevitable, but Turbine should at least attempt to close that ever widening gap instead of fostering it. So when melee's 5th swing is fixed (and overall attack speed period), and ranged works much better than it does (this is in progress), and we get more options for melee, then maybe, Tuirbine should address this "slight" to the Sorcerer.

Wizards gained spontaneous casting...a HUGE advantage over PnP. It is the spontaneous casting that made metamagic casting slower in PnP so it makes sense that since both have spontaneous casting now Meta does not change cast rate.