Updated Death Penalty and Permanent Item Damage Changes

[smatt]

Good question. Glad you asked.

In my current situation, lets settle several things.

- I don't do loot runs. (it's lame and boring)
- I don't do alot of alternate character playing. (ie: I don't' have alot of super geared alts)
- My current character is MAXED on faction. Meaning I've run every quest in this game on elite. (and I don't really have the desire to repeat most of them)
- I currently have just over 100k plat. (not rich by any stretch)
- I have over 40 Raid loot drops. (ie: pretty stong gear)
- Raid loot chests are not known for great cash loot either.

When I log in, I like to Raid. With the Abbot raid, I can rack up 10-12 deaths a night. (not because I am sloppy, but because that's what it takes when you are doing something hard/unbeaten as intended)
However, in turn I can run VoN, or the Twilight Forge and pretty much make back all that XP. (I like raiding) it's my "FUN".

But I highly doubt that I'd make anywhere near enough $$ to pay for all the repair debt. In fact I'm pretty sure of it.
Sorry the Cash loot in those quests just don't cut it.

After all my current Repair bill (despite Item Defense 2) is still pretty high. And on top of that I'm a frequent Potion Buyer.
So my money out is pretty much countered by the measly loot that trickles in, and the occasional auction house sell.

So here's my conclusion.

Play Less.

Instead of giving the Abbot a good 6-10 trys a night Plus a VoN run, it'll be 1-3 abbots and Some loot run.(which i don't like doing)

Congratulations, You've found a reason for me (a dedicated player) to actually desire to play less.

OK Riot to start, I don't neccesarly like or dislike the proposed new stystem, although I think it's a start. But looking at what you're do's and don'ts. Really it's makes no difference to me to be honest, they will do as they do and I'll play as I play, adjust to whatever they throw at me, and when I get bored I'll move on.

So now, do you consider yourself to be the average player, one that is more common than others, with a play style, and fun meter that most or at least a good many players agree with? Or are you of a more specialized type, one of the less common DDO players? Do you think it's a good idea to cater to a small percentage of the population, one that has been loyal for a long time? Or maybe jsut maybe come up with soem features that might cater to a larger population, a new one, one that has a chance to POSSIBLY bring innew blood, instead of sticking with the old worn-out, and likely bored no matter what they do blood?

As for the way they've already changed this from the orginal ideas, I think they've already defeated the whole purpose of the change by caving in to the extremely vocal minority of serial posters here, posters that are in fact a very much smaller percentage of the DDO population. While the posters here on the forums may represent soem of the more avid players, and that I do think they should at least take into account the opinions of those players. I think they're caving in a bit too much.....

Some simple questions, I'm not trying to be confrontational, Nor am I trying to ridicule or critisize you or your opinions in anyway.

[mrtreats]

Everything's useful! Even if it's just as raw materials.

Oh no! I've said too much!


Adamantine Ritual I:
Device Requirement: Stone of Change
Materials: 10 Adamantine Ore, 10 Soul Gem: Essence of Earth, 1 Attuned Equippable Item
Benefit: This item has been tempered by a Stone of Change using the Adamantine Ritual. It has +5 Hardness and +10 Durability. Further Adamantine Rituals will increase this item's Durability. (But require greater amounts of Adamantine Ore and Soul Gems)

Will this make the stack of like 50+ invaders tokens i have usefull

[QuantumFX]

Will this make the stack of like 50+ invaders tokens i have usefull

Mmmmm.... Ritual of Byshek I!

[bobbryan2]

Dragonscale repairs are still of great concern to me, though I'm not sure if I'll be able to get an ideal solution done in for The Thirteenth Eclipse. At the very least in the short term, you'll now be able to wear it down to zero with no chance of permanent damage before repairing at the lower rate.

It's been a pretty bad mechanic since it's inception.

I don't really see any reason why they should have seperate repair functions at all. Are all shop keepers assumed to have sufficient stores of mithral, adamantine and cold iron on hand for other rare material repairs? Why are those people the only people that know how to repair scale armor? Etc.

They should just be changed to be normal armor with regards to being repaired. The 10 relics was a 'really' bad idea, and it's good that you're coming down from that, but you should remove it entirely.

Just my opinion though. Having the really hefty grind of getting the armor in the first place, there shouldn't be a grind to have it constantly fixed.

[kingfisher]

so when you bind an item to a character (to avoid damage) can you unbind it later or is it permaforeverandever bound to that character?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

so when you bind an item to a character (to avoid damage) can you unbind it later or is it permaforeverandever bound to that character?

Bound is bound.

[Grimtooth333]

I don't really see any reason why they should have seperate repair functions at all. Are all shop keepers assumed to have sufficient stores of mithral, adamantine and cold iron on hand for other rare material repairs? Why are those people the only people that know how to repair scale armor? Etc.

They should just be changed to be normal armor with regards to being repaired. The 10 relics was a 'really' bad idea, and it's good that you're coming down from that, but you should remove it entirely.

Just my opinion though. Having the really hefty grind of getting the armor in the first place, there shouldn't be a grind to have it constantly fixed.

I completely agree... heck I can't get enough Relics now so my scale armor/robe(s) have to sit in the bank all the time as it is.

[szalkerous]

I'm just glad there's change. Change can be bad, change can be good, but it's better than nothing changing at all.

Deep, huh?

[ORCRiST]

This is not a good thing Turbine. You are dissenfranchising players. This change is not needed or wanted.

Agreed. They're doing it soley to try and introduce a mechanic to control the economy.

A patch that makes dieing suck. Wow, Who would have thought dieing sucks?
The new death system is not bad. Im in favor of any system the eliminates "dieing" as a tactic.

Except for the fact... its not NEEDED? Yes, dying (learn to spell people, seriously), should NEVER be used as a 'tactic'. However what you fail to realize is that dying as a 'tactic' is often the result of bad quest design and/or implementation. When VON was first introduced, it was broken, for weeks. Player base solution? Dying. The Titan was introduced. F-ing BROKEN for MONTHS. Dying wasn't the solution, but there was alot of it trying to figure out W T F. The Reaver? Madstone and the Symbol of Pain fiasco? Dying. When Turbine makes bad design decisions, bad coding decisions, or just plain doesn't Q&A, the player base dies. One way or another.

I'm going to keep this simple on the death penalty.

Don't do it, it doesn't need fixed...

Dieing was a tactic in the Dragon Raid too, they fixed that and now... No one runs the Dragon.

I think this makes my point.

Sigh. QFT.

[Laith]

Dieing was a tactic in the Dragon Raid too, they fixed that and now... No one runs the Dragon.

I think this makes my point.

Other than the fact that people still run velah all the time, i'm sure if you put more thought into it, you can come up with more reasons the quest chain is less popular than it used to be.

[Riot]

I'll put this simply.

First, I agree dieing should be a negative experience, and NOT a tactic.

Secondly, I don't think this solution makes any sense whatsoever. Due to the cause of death, and what it's forcing you to do.
ie: Loot Runs.

Here's my viewpoint, and one I know I'm not alone it having.

This new change will make me PuG even less than I do now.
Why now would I ever PuG? It's just not worth it to have inexperience person 01 Not do "whatever" and get me killed.
I have high end gear, and simply don't feel like paying for "others" mistakes.

Especially considering the fact I don't LOOT RUN day in and day out. why? It's not fun! Simple as that.

So, basically with that change, I'm online less, I only play with guildies when I am.
I spend less money in the Auction House, I over price more items in the Auction house instead of simply passing on items inexpensively. Because If I'm going to sell something I'm going to sell it for what it's worth instead of just passing it along with a quick buyout.

And to top it all off, IF/WHEN I have to make money, it will be done by abusing whichever loot run is the easiest and most lucrative by doing anything up to BUT NOT INCLUDING exploiting.
Why? Because loot running sucks, and it's no fun, and if I am forced to do it, it will be done quick and easy.... And most likely NOT in a PuG. Since I don't want loot runs to turn into corpse runs.

Is Turbine actually trying to drive away their experienced players?

I'm all for difficulty but not at the price of monotony. or sensibility.

[HumanJHawkins]

<CUT>I don't think this solution makes any sense whatsoever. Due to the cause of death, and what it's forcing you to do.
ie: Loot Runs.<CUT>

Is Turbine actually trying to drive away their experienced players?

Dude... Do you seriously think a few hundred plat per death is going to make ANY difference whatsoever to a lvl 14 toon? Do you think 50 Gold per death is going to hurt a lvl 2?

What Turbine has done here is completely remove any death penalty once you are done with a quest. Seriously, this is just a shadow of a penalty thrown in to quiet the hardcore "we want a strong death penalty" crowd. It's a facade. It will mean nothing.

The real penalty, that really will suck, is being nerfed for 10 minutes in elite quests... Ouch!

[MysticTheurge]

The real penalty, that really will suck, is being nerfed for 10 minutes in elite quests... Ouch!

I think it caps out at five minutes per death, doesn't it:

1st death - 1 minute
2nd death - 2 minutes, 3 overall
3rd death - 3 minutes, 6 overall
4th death - 4 minutes, 10 overall
5th death - 5 minutes, 15 overall
6th death - 5 minutes, 20 overall
and so on...

[redshirt]

Sorry in advance if rehashing something in this thread already.

Real DND had serious death penalties. A party wipe was potentially the end of the quest... time for new characters. Just recovering from Raise Dead or Resurrection was a serious undertaking in time (not sure about newest rules). DDO is either that type of game or not.

If not, it makes no sense to over penalize dying as the main goal is cranking old quests with friends for loot and favor, while grinding new ones to learn them. You can always rocket to high levels on content you know (all on elite with a couple +2 lvl buddies) so I find arguments over leveling issues moot. I find I play with a key core and if they haven't moved on to the new quests, neither have I.

We all know there is nothing like the experience of a good group and a well played dungeon.

I doubt there is a truly useful death penalty in MMOs since the goal is not epic questing (long cohesive game thread with events that overcome the landscape with mayhem). So ultimately, it's much more of a drag for newbies to be clobbered with any kind of debt as it slows progress and discourages trying new things.

If you must have a death penalty, here's an idea. Let the death penalty be something like a timer that locks you out of a quest if you are forced to recall out. On normal, the timer is short, but it worsens for higher settings. This at least simulates the original dnd system. (And if you insist on monetary penalty, it could be paid to eliminate the timer?)

-r

Of topic a bit....

Put in old school Mordenkainen's disjunction traps or casters in dungeon's that drop uber items... minimizing the carrying of prized items and maximizing smart game play.

How about putting in "disrupting weapon" spell for clerics!

How about making turn undead actually work... you can't seriously expect any cleric to hyper invest in CHR to maximize that turn ability. (Nor should you force dual classing to gain the benefit... defeats the purpose of the ability being clerical.)

Be brave... let rogues find ways to bypass dangerous areas via secret passageways. Make the secret access be randomly located.

Let there be npc guilds that affect things for real (like access to quests after recovery of key items).

Let there be better use of rogues. (e.g: Quests for bound items that are useful in other quests for which rogues are best suited.)

And... steads, flying mounts, real dragons that fly and swoop in with fiery death, ships, great stretches of fields where we can build houses, wide spread wizard guilds from which we can teleport (for a price), great forests with ENTs and druids, "no teleport" zones, armies, castles, antipaladins, and so on!

[smatt]

Hmm, well I tried it out over on Risia..... Not a big deal really I think the classes it will hurt most are the casters ( OH MY let is all start again ) Losing just one level for any period of time really impacts their ability to insta-kill at least some of the mobs, and these are just the lower CR15/16/17s in the Vale (adventure area) I'm sure the mobs in the quests will likely have higher CR's and more spell resistance. Yep, casters without max spell pen feats/items will be banging their heads and running for their lives. As for the monetary issues, well my repair bills were running between 3,500-4,000 GOLD per death, with a pretty much tweaked out, very well equipped fighter build. Not a huge penalty for those that have the habit of staying alive. BUT the people have the habit of dying often, the ones who can't self buff to some extent, or can't BEG for buffs from the poor mana starved casters and clerics. And have that troubling habit of running off on zerg-fests, well, they'll have to pony up the cash People will definately have to consider their pocket books a bit more. Those constant re-rollers who have 64 toons and are constantly broke and begging the rich guildies for plat are going to be in a mess.

The biggest pain will be remembering to repair often..... Also, even with the dragon scale repair cost dropped to 3 relics per repair, I think the dragon/Elven/Giant relics are going to be running short for a lot of people who wear those respective armors.

Biggest drawback, the caster thing, keep those nukers alive at all costs. I think this will end up being the biggest issue overall with this change.

A little bit of a gameplay change no doubt, but overall a good one IMO.

[smatt]

I think it caps out at five minutes per death, doesn't it:

1st death - 1 minute
2nd death - 2 minutes, 3 overall
3rd death - 3 minutes, 6 overall
4th death - 4 minutes, 10 overall
5th death - 5 minutes, 15 overall
6th death - 5 minutes, 20 overall
and so on...

Naw, it's 1 min per death with a max of 5. It's also caps at 1 level drain max per 3 levels of your toon. So a level 1-3 toon gan only get a min penalty max, levels 4-6 2 min max etc.

[smatt]

I'll put this simply.

First, I agree dieing should be a negative experience, and NOT a tactic.

Secondly, I don't think this solution makes any sense whatsoever. Due to the cause of death, and what it's forcing you to do.
ie: Loot Runs.

Here's my viewpoint, and one I know I'm not alone it having.

This new change will make me PuG even less than I do now.
Why now would I ever PuG? It's just not worth it to have inexperience person 01 Not do "whatever" and get me killed.
I have high end gear, and simply don't feel like paying for "others" mistakes.

Especially considering the fact I don't LOOT RUN day in and day out. why? It's not fun! Simple as that.

So, basically with that change, I'm online less, I only play with guildies when I am.
I spend less money in the Auction House, I over price more items in the Auction house instead of simply passing on items inexpensively. Because If I'm going to sell something I'm going to sell it for what it's worth instead of just passing it along with a quick buyout.

And to top it all off, IF/WHEN I have to make money, it will be done by abusing whichever loot run is the easiest and most lucrative by doing anything up to BUT NOT INCLUDING exploiting.
Why? Because loot running sucks, and it's no fun, and if I am forced to do it, it will be done quick and easy.... And most likely NOT in a PuG. Since I don't want loot runs to turn into corpse runs.

Is Turbine actually trying to drive away their experienced players?

I'm all for difficulty but not at the price of monotony. or sensibility.

Well if you read what I jsut posted or actaulyl go over to Risia and see what it's all about and are as awesome as it appears you think you are (come on I have to a smart ass ) Well then the small fees for repairs after your ever so occasional death won't be a big deal. Money will be a bit tighter for the non-loot runners, sure. But it shouldn't really be a HUGE issue. Really the only negative I see is the caster thing, that will lead to some issues for the big heads. But it's really not that big of a deal. Toss in a couple of quik TbF runs or something every couple of days and that should cover any repair costs, for the uber player at least

[woodspider]

I have a question. If a item is wore down by death, does that make it easier for it to wear down while using it? And if it does, does anyone else see a problem with it?

Also on another note, How many people will be doing the hard quest like GoP after this goes into effect?

[MysticTheurge]

Naw, it's 1 min per death with a max of 5. It's also caps at 1 level drain max per 3 levels of your toon. So a level 1-3 toon gan only get a min penalty max, levels 4-6 2 min max etc.

According to Eladrin's original post, your second death has a penalty for 2 minutes: 1 minute for the 2-neg-level penalty, 1 minute for the 1-neg-level penalty.

The third death has a penalty for three minutes: 1 minute for the 3-neg-level penalty, 1 minute for the 2-neg-level penalty, 1 minute for the 1-neg-level penalty.

And so on.

Is that what you're saying?

(Note: my "overall" number was simply referring to the cumulative, maximum time you'd have spent with any kind of penalty at each subsequent death between resting. So the "overall" number for the second death is the penalty from death 2 and the penalty from death 1 added together.)

[smatt]

According to Eladrin's original post, your second death has a penalty for 2 minutes: 1 minute for the 2-neg-level penalty, 1 minute for the 1-neg-level penalty.

The third death has a penalty for three minutes: 1 minute for the 3-neg-level penalty, 1 minute for the 2-neg-level penalty, 1 minute for the 1-neg-level penalty.

And so on.

Is that what you're saying?

(Note: my "overall" number was simply referring to the cumulative, maximum time you'd have spent with any kind of penalty at each subsequent death between resting. So the "overall" number for the second death is the penalty from death 2 and the penalty from death 1 added together.)

Hmm, well when I was testin on Risia, there was onyl one case where I died multiple times (2), and it stacked at 1 min per death so say you die, rez you get 1 neg level for 1 min and then you die again 30 seconds later, and then get rezzed. You now have 2 neg levels 1 will drop off in 30 seconds the next 1 min after that. I guess if you died 5 times in 1 min you could end up with a total max of 5 nmeg levels for a total of 6 minutes.

I guess I'll have to go TRY to die 5 times in row and make sure Heck,I'll go do it right now