Updated Death Penalty and Permanent Item Damage Changes

[oronisi]

Wow Mystic I thought you would have known the answer to this one.

"Work for your deaths"? lets see how the phrase seems to go....

"I don't come home from work, to "WORK" on the game."
"I play the game to have FUN and not work."

At the same time, I don't have FUN when there is no sense of ACCOMPLISHMENT.

ACCOMPLISHMENT boils down to RISK VS REWARD.

NO DEATH PENALTY removes all RISK, and thus, all REWARD.

So I can't have fun if there's no death penalty. If you don't know what i mean, go play StarWars Legos. You might have fun for like 3 minutes, then turn the darn thing off.

[Riot]

but the fact remains that death just doesn't matter if you're capped.

That's a problem Turbine has brought on themselves.
Unlimited REZ SHRINE Usage for starters.

Death meant something if you had to run back to the zone because you used the rest shrine already.
Or in some cases because you couldn't get back into the zone at all.

Unlimted Rez Shrine usage has done more encourage to the "death doesn't matter" attitude than being XP capped.

If you really want death TO MATTER?????

Get rid of all REZ Shrines.... Now there's something that would make sense....
Never see any mobs running to their own shrines do you?

[moorewr]

That's a problem Turbine has brought on themselves.
Unlimited REZ SHRINE Usage for starters.

Death meant something if you had to run back to the zone because you used the rest shrine already.
Or in some cases because you couldn't get back into the zone at all.

Unlimted Rez Shrine usage has done more encourage to the "death doesn't matter" attitude than being XP capped.

Agreed. Here's a vote for putting them back to single use.

[Riot]

At the same time, I don't have FUN when there is no sense of ACCOMPLISHMENT.

ACCOMPLISHMENT boils down to RISK VS REWARD.

NO DEATH PENALTY removes all RISK, and thus, all REWARD.

So I can't have fun if there's no death penalty.

I agree with you... See my comment about Rez Shrines.

I just can't agree with blanket item damage for any death whatsoever. It's BAD Logic and makes no sense.
Not to mention bad design.

If I'm hit by a giant, and something takes damage? Fine, makes sense.
If I fail a poison save and die from con lose, and all my gear takes damage.... I'm calling B.S>

[Pellegro]

I've said it before, in this very thread I think, but it bears repeating:

Not everyone plays this game for "challenge". Many play it as a social release. To them, making things harder is not fun or rewarding. They just want something to do with their hands while they gab with their friends, and cool pics to look at while they do it (preferably of something dying).

The best thing Turbine can do to cater to the most players possible would be to make "Normal" SUPER easy (catering to the social players) and "Elite" SUPER hard (catering to those who enjoy the challenge aspects). The "Hard" setting should be reserved for what they deem to be a good balance.

I am of the opinion that allowing the repeat use of shrines on normal, as well as scaling up the difficulty of traps on elite, are both excellent steps in the right direction. IIRC, both are coming in Mod 6.

Hopefully going forward, they will continue in this philosophical direction, thereby pleasing the most players, increasing revenue, so they get a larger art resource budget, so we get more stuff.

[HumanJHawkins]

For the record, content is king!, but I've been a "dedicated casual" player for a year, and there are a dozen-plus quests I have never run with any character)

Lol. Most people would probably consider me a power gamer... If not for my skills, at least because of the amount of time I spend playing. And I am in the same boat. There are probably 10 quests I have never run, even if you take the new Mod 5 content out of the picture.

And I have 3 toons with more than 1100 favor, two of them capped, and of course the one that unlocked 32 pointers for me.

I am pretty convinced that when people talk about needing more content, they are talking about needing more relatively easy, high loot, high favor quests like Stormcleave. You could add 200 quests like Necropolis I and people would be screaming about not enough content the next day, because such quests are not on their radar.

(Oh wait... Mod 5 did add 200 quests like that, and people were screaming for more content the next day!)

That said, it's a valid point that there is not enough "good" content... With "good" defined as "what most people want". Personally, I have run "The Pit" 3 times in the last week and don't have a problem with it. So I won't add my personal 2 cents as to what "good" means.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

If I fail a poison save and die from con lose, and all my gear takes damage.... I'm calling B.S>

I can see what yer sayin' Riot, obviously, it makes total sense.
But what is the actual problem? I mean, this is fantasy, this is a game, the 'punishment' for death is repairs.
Why do you have a problem with how thats implemented? Are you a massive roleplayer? I could see RP'ers having
a hard time fittin the poison = gear damage into the storyline. Us other gamers, well, I kinda just accept that thats
how it is. Death = GP's. Doesnt matter how my gear gets damaged, really.

Serious question, cause like I said I agree with yer argument, just not sure why yer arguing it.

[Warrax23]

I can see how XP lose translates to you made a mistake and now you have to start over to learn from it. This new code is like getting a speeding ticket, who wants to pay money for not seeing the 45 speed limit change?

People are gonna die, newbies are gonna die more it's kinda simple, so maybe just get rid of ANY form of Death Penalty until like level 5/6 it's not unheard of and could set a decent trend in MMOs. Let people learn to play the game before being too harsh on play mistakes and simple accidents.

As far as twinking, when do you get a level 2 weapon? I sure the hell don't get em at level 2. I usually get them at level 4+. NOW on the flip side there are SOME eq that realllllly shouldn't be level 2 Maelstrom anyone? I've had 9-10 level 14's since the cap was raised and deleted some just because I didn't like the feel of them, looked good on paper but were totally garbage when leveled up. SO I have to start over, why would I since I just deleted a level 14 want to scrap and scronge for gear when I've already got it. Why should I have to take a month to wait on PuGs to drag there feet threw a mission I've done 200 times? I'd rather just hand em some decent gear and run myself through those missions. I don't want to be forced to HAVE to group with you, because you sing or hum over the mic or can't figure out push to talk or are having some kind of backyard wrestling match behind you when you talk? The answer squelch? Then I can't hear/see anything you want me to do, so then I look like a jerk when I do what should be done and your off splashing water at one another?

[ArkoHighStar]

5k Platinum Pieces is different from 5k Gold Pieces. I took my WF and my gear agaist elite rust monsters and elite slimes and beat my SOS down to 0 durability untill it was unusable died about 12 times (**** those elite rusties) and my repairs did not go past 20k Gold Pieces. My SOS cost apx 7.5k Gold Pieces to repair not 7.5k Platinum Pieces. Make sure your use the correct monentary standard.
Your making the repair costs sound more expensive when mix up plat and gold.

and please read the post, average repair cost per death 500ppX10 deaths is 5kpp per night of abbott raiding

[xman26]

That's a problem Turbine has brought on themselves.
Unlimited REZ SHRINE Usage for starters.

Death meant something if you had to run back to the zone because you used the rest shrine already.
Or in some cases because you couldn't get back into the zone at all.

Unlimted Rez Shrine usage has done more encourage to the "death doesn't matter" attitude than being XP capped.

If you really want death TO MATTER?????

Get rid of all REZ Shrines.... Now there's something that would make sense....
Never see any mobs running to their own shrines do you?

Lets destroy a good game even more, yeah that the ticket. more and more like WOW, go play WOW for gods sake.

[Laith]

Lets destroy a good game even more, yeah that the ticket. more and more like WOW, go play WOW for gods sake.

can we stop playing the "like WoW" card?

please? thanks.

So what if it's been done before? So what if it's done in the biggest contender in the market? That has NO BEARING (good OR bad) on how it fits here.

[Riot]

It's hard to describe.

What I think is happening is a complication of multiple errors.

First, the lack of content/level up opportunities. (ie: enhancements)
In other games you can still use positive XP to "earn things" once you've hit the cap.

Secondly, existance/multiple use of, REZ shrines does more harm than good towards applying an actual death penalty.

Thirdly, mudflation has run quite rampant through the use of exploits and "loot runs".

So instead of actually addressing the specific problems we're seeing a big fat Bandaid over them all.
And that's just going to lead to more problems down the line.

Example 1: Buying plat from (insert internet plat farm web addy here) Just became MORE TEMPTING.

Going to charge people extra for dying? Guess what. Every plat farmer just celebrated their up comming bonus check.

[Ron]

I guess I have trouble understanding how, aside from affecting capped characters this new death penalty is better or harsher than XP Debt, especially from the perspective of somebody who wants a harsh death penalty. This hits player's pockets which actually has more of an effect on the usually broke casual players and new players than experienced players and powergamers. I guess it's the next step in the evolution of the game.

It's not so much that I WANT a harsh death penalty per se. I want a death penalty that:
1) Applies to everyone relatively equally
2) Prevents death from being dismissed (and thus used as a tactic or convienience)

The item damage penalty achieves the first goal (whereas the XP penalty did not). This in and of itself is pretty huge, IMO, and is going to have it's own effect on the game. It doesn't quite take care of the second goal. I don't think the plat hit is going to stop people from using it inappropriately (the debuff is meaningless), which is why I'd prefer it was just a little bit harsher. The threat of perma-damage provided that, but that's gone now. Ah well, it's better than what we had anyway. Because it's a hit to the pocketbooks, it will help *some* with the economy, I suppose, but not as much as I would have hoped for. But again, the economy was always a side effect rather than the intent of the new penalty, so I suppose I can't complain too much

In any event, I don't want the DP to be ultra-harsh. That wouldn't be good either, just harsh enough to provide the risk that makes the game fun, and to keep death from being used as a cheese method.

Well, being that you're soloing content that was never originally intended to be soloed (in fact they went backwards and added solo difficulty and made certain quests solo only) I think your perspective could be skewed because of that. Aren't CR's based upon a party of four characters? I don't mean to insult your methods, as you seem rather intelligent, but I'm curious to understand how you've arrived at the conclusion that some newer quests are harder and twinked characters are likely the cause for that by soloing quests that are intended for a full group of 4 to 6? Or are you only doing these quests on the solo difficulty.

Oh no, what would be the fun in that, hehe. I run them Solo->Normal->Hard->Elite, in that order (though not necessarily back to back). And no, I don't think it skews my perspective (at least, I don't *think* so). Yeah, it's hard. WW on Normal is a ***** for a level 2 untwinked character (and the guardian of STK can be near impossible unless you happen to have picked up a decent adamantium weapon somewhere). But remember I'm speaking of *relative* difficulty levels. I can do all the level 2 quests on normal with my solo character and compare them directly (pretty much) to each other without having to take into account a lot of extra variables (party make-up etc).

On the other hand, now that you mention it, perhaps there is a bit of a skew there because casters are a nightmare for solo running. One failed save on a Hold Person and it's "game over, man!" (that's why with all my solo builds I try to bump my will save as high and as quickly as possible). So I guess from that perspective, the dungeons with casters in them may be percieved as harder (relatively) than they would be for a group. That's a point I'll have to keep in mind as I'm comparing.

Couldn't it just be that the devs saw people, twinked and untwinked soloing certain content and decided to amp up the challenge, completely irrespective of whether or not the character was twinked?

It's possible, but I kinda doubt it. I don't think there are all that many people with dedicated soloists running around. I know of only a handful of us. We're statistically irrelevant, heh, I doubt they pay any attention to us at all

Hmm...this makes me want to test things in the same way you have. Is it possible to make a 28 point character if you have the ability to make 32?

It's a fun, albiet sometimes frustrating, way to play. It certainly does give a sense of accomplishment when you walk out of a dungeon by yourself with the conquest/ransack bonuses I always picture Conan the Barbarian covered in gore walking off a battlefield, the only survivor, LOL. Wierd, I know. I actually not sure about the 28/32 build thing. I think you may have to run on a server you don't have 1750 on to do that.

Have a good holiday season!

You too! And to everyone!

[Emili]

Hey, let me call out this one.

If you are not an established player, working on yet another character to cap, or your skills or borderline, you are going to get killed. If you are an occasional player on top of that your visit to the game can run this way -- wait for a while to join a pug, try a quest beyond your abilities, die. Give up (or finish breaking even), further from level than ever.

Now, we all know the solution is to get better at the game, but evidently Turbine is losing too many of these players before they make it up the learning curve. I'd rather have them stick around so the game remains viable and growing.

(For the record, content is king!, but I've been a "dedicated casual" player for a year, and there are a dozen-plus quests I have never run with any character)

This is not the fault of any death peanalty, nor is it the fault of the new player or casual player... this is the fault of the seasoned experience player (unfortunately myself included, though I believe I try to help) in not taking the time to share... It's sharing the knowledge of the quest, the builds, it's sharing the wealth by passing along items and experience to those who are green. This is what an online game should be about, having fun together - not alone. It's the player communities fault when people leave the game because they're not having fun - not the game at all.

[moorewr]

This is not the fault of any death peanalty, nor is it the fault of the new player or casual player... this is the fault of the seasoned experience player (unfortunately myself included, though I believe I try to help) in not taking the time to share... It's sharing the knowledge of the quest, the builds, it's sharing the wealth by passing along items and experience to those who are green. This is what an online game should be about, having fun together - not alone. It's the player communities fault when people leave the game because they're not having fun - not the game at all.

You speak truth!

I do try to help players too (for one thing I'm the unofficial tour guide to Ataraxia on Thelanis at the moment). We can all do more to help. So long as we run lowbies and PUG now and then we'll at least MEET these people. I love pugging, although sometimes, when it goes wrong, it can be no fun at all.

We tried a players' aid society type guild this summer on Thelanis (the Mid-Level Blues); that did not work out mostly because of the lack enough committed officers. It turned into work instead of fun in a hurry. However, some kind of players' aid society would be neat to set up, if the right format presented itself.

[PhoenixRajoNight]

Howdy, first off I've played WoW, and while death penalties can be less "severe" than ddo's there way of doing death penalties isnt an Ideal to model after. The Debuffs makes sense, because recovering from death should have some effects of fatigue and such, or xp cost because something like death is going to cause a fallback in what you've learned, equipment damage while it does cause penalty for death doesnt make any real sense, and is not the answer, I am sorry to so that and thwart your efforts here. Your going to create poorer and poorer characters, and item prices will go up, making things less affordable for peeps starting out. This is especially a bad idea for clerics as it increases the gold they have to dish out, and its alrdy expensive enough to play a cleric.

I am adament that this Idea of doing what WoW does because its a "more sucessful" is not the path to go down, I have a better idea imo, and of course I'll share it here, and prolly post in my own thread, after this, unless I get a Mod response in the next 2 days.

The best way to do a "Death Penalty System" is keep the one you have currently, but add an element for peeps that would have gold cost instead of xp cost which essentially is what your trying to do with equipment damage. All you have to do is add Potions to the Tavern's in which they would work like food or drink but refilling lost xp, or drink it and it regains xp right away without waiting for impatient peeps, in which you you make both parties happy, some peeps would rather pay gold, and some peeps rather pay the xp cost, not going from 1 extreme to another. You should also implement that these potions can be taken in a rest area as well after resting or resing or just there, whichever seems fit.

I appologize for any bad wording or english, it never was my best subject, and thwarting your attempt to make peeps happy, but just because other systems might be in "more played" games doesnt mean its the better way to go. Please dont change the xp penalty to equipment penalty make a middle ground here so we are all happy.

Another thing I'd like to adress in this is the Double hit on xp, If you die u get xp debt and if you have to res out and come back in you get negative xp gain on the dung itself, now thats what has to go, If you leave a dung willingly without death and left for another reason this is a reasonable idea, but if you die, and your the cleric in the party so your the one that has to res out to save the others. This seriously can be a damper on gameplay, lets see I'm dishing out gold for wands and elixers, and now equipment damage and im not gaining anything for xp, where is it worth it for me to continue being a cleric? See where I'm going with this, I hope so.

[MysticTheurge]

So the casual role player has either admitted this game is work, or forgotten we're supposed to be having fun.
Why does this always seem to flip around at others convenience? And not the Raiders?

There are aspects of any game that you have to work for. If you didn't there wouldn't, the rewards wouldn't feel rewarding.

That said, if you don't want to "work" for some extra money, you can use the other option, which is to not die as much.

I challenge anyone to tell me what the problem was with it and not link it back to the fact that there isn't enough content.

The XP penalty was so absurdly broken it wasn't funny.

1) Flat penalties for all players regardless of play-style or type of player.
2) Negligible penalty at extremely low and extremely high levels, disproportionately high penalty in middle levels

Neither of those things have anything to do with content. Unless you're falling back on them "Well it's turbine's fault for not raising the level cap" argument, which has now been refuted so many times I can't believe people are even still saying it.

I don't feel like running other quests for the 4-100th time. Thanks but no thanks.

This seems like such an arbitrary distinction. You're ok running Raids and anything which is required to flag for a raid, but you're not willing to run anything else in order to finance your raiding?

Please.

If it's from lack of experience then why not suggest a smaller XP penalty at lower levels?

Because the XP penalty being hard on a certain group of players was only a portion of what was wrong with the XP penalty.

First, the lack of content/level up opportunities. (ie: enhancements)
In other games you can still use positive XP to "earn things" once you've hit the cap.

You'll have to forgive me for not knowing how this works, so maybe some other games pull it off. To me it seems like continually making the strongest (i.e. oldest) characters ever stronger is a recipe for game-balance disaster.

Secondly, existance/multiple use of, REZ shrines does more harm than good towards applying an actual death penalty.

Multi-use rez shrines don't do anything that a cleric in the party, or anyone with UMD, and raise scrolls can't do already.

Unless you're arguing that they should also get rid of the freely available consumable magic items (which I suspect you aren't since you admit to being a major consumer of potions).

Example 1: Buying plat from (insert internet plat farm web addy here) Just became MORE TEMPTING.

Going to charge people extra for dying? Guess what. Every plat farmer just celebrated their up comming bonus check.

And it's still a good way to get your character banned if you get caught.

I wish people would stop trying to argue against this change with "plat farmers are going to love it" because honestly, just about anything you do in the game makes plat buying more tempting. Add some nice new items? Plat farmers celebrate! Increase the level cap so people need to re-equip themselves with better stuff? Plat farmers celebrate. New raid that requires lots of mnemonic potions and many a heal/raise scroll? Plat farmer celebrate.

So honestly, it shouldn't be a major consideration in designing the game. Some unscrupulous people will try to sell plat, other unscrupulous people will buy it. Nothing Turbine adds or takes out of the game is going to change that. They will, however, do their best to stop it from happening and ban people who do it. That's the extent of the effect it should have on the game.

[xman26]

Howdy, first off I've played WoW, and while death penalties can be less "severe" than ddo's there way of doing death penalties isnt an Ideal to model after. The Debuffs makes sense, because recovering from death should have some effects of fatigue and such, or xp cost because something like death is going to cause a fallback in what you've learned, equipment damage while it does cause penalty for death doesnt make any real sense, and is not the answer, I am sorry to so that and thwart your efforts here. Your going to create poorer and poorer characters, and item prices will go up, making things less affordable for peeps starting out. This is especially a bad idea for clerics as it increases the gold they have to dish out, and its alrdy expensive enough to play a cleric.

I am adament that this Idea of doing what WoW does because its a "more sucessful" is not the path to go down, I have a better idea imo, and of course I'll share it here, and prolly post in my own thread, after this, unless I get a Mod response in the next 2 days.

The best way to do a "Death Penalty System" is keep the one you have currently, but add an element for peeps that would have gold cost instead of xp cost which essentially is what your trying to do with equipment damage. All you have to do is add Potions to the Tavern's in which they would work like food or drink but refilling lost xp, or drink it and it regains xp right away without waiting for impatient peeps, in which you you make both parties happy, some peeps would rather pay gold, and some peeps rather pay the xp cost, not going from 1 extreme to another. You should also implement that these potions can be taken in a rest area as well after resting or resing or just there, whichever seems fit.

I appologize for any bad wording or english, it never was my best subject, and thwarting your attempt to make peeps happy, but just because other systems might be in "more played" games doesnt mean its the better way to go. Please dont change the xp penalty to equipment penalty make a middle ground here so we are all happy.

Another thing I'd like to adress in this is the Double hit on xp, If you die u get xp debt and if you have to res out and come back in you get negative xp gain on the dung itself, now thats what has to go, If you leave a dung willingly without death and left for another reason this is a reasonable idea, but if you die, and your the cleric in the party so your the one that has to res out to save the others. This seriously can be a damper on gameplay, lets see I'm dishing out gold for wands and elixers, and now equipment damage and im not gaining anything for xp, where is it worth it for me to continue being a cleric? See where I'm going with this, I hope so.

Finally, someone else who has played WOW and sees what in the world they are trying to do here.


"The XP penalty was so absurdly broken it wasn't funny.

1) Flat penalties for all players regardless of play-style or type of player.
2) Negligible penalty at extremely low and extremely high levels, disproportionately high penalty in middle levels

Neither of those things have anything to do with content. Unless you're falling back on them "Well it's turbine's fault for not raising the level cap" argument, which has now been refuted so many times I can't believe people are even still saying it."

Mystic, the XP system was NOT absurdly broken. There wasn't anything wrong with it at all. I think you and everyone else need to go back to playing WOW, I've played WOW and didn't like it. Its obvious you did, go back and please stop trying to make DDO WOW.

[LordFancyPants]

Mystic, the XP system was NOT absurdly broken. There wasn't anything wrong with it at all. I think you and everyone else need to go back to playing WOW, I've played WOW and didn't like it. Its obvious you did, go back and please stop trying to make DDO WOW.

I understand that you personally, mr Xman, didn't have a problem with the XP system. But saying that there isn't "anything wrong with it at all" is kind of ignorant. Is it so hard for you to accept that other people might have possibly had a problem with it and that is why the devs are changing it?

And all these comparisons to WOW, what is that about? DDO is an MMO... therefore it is like WOW... and EQ... and NWN... and Conan... and LOTRO. So what? As far as I am concerned.... copy WOW more. Like get Mr.T to do a DDO commercial.

I mean, there are only so many ways to do stuff... just because we have a death penalty similar to WOW, doesn't mean that DDO = WOW. By saying that, you are ignoring all the things that make DDO unique from the other MMO's out there.

And, I'm pretty sure that everyone wasn't claiming that WOW was becoming more like DDO when they added party chat....

[Hendrik]

Finally, someone else who has played WOW and sees what in the world they are trying to do here.


"The XP penalty was so absurdly broken it wasn't funny.

1) Flat penalties for all players regardless of play-style or type of player.
2) Negligible penalty at extremely low and extremely high levels, disproportionately high penalty in middle levels

Neither of those things have anything to do with content. Unless you're falling back on them "Well it's turbine's fault for not raising the level cap" argument, which has now been refuted so many times I can't believe people are even still saying it."

Mystic, the XP system was NOT absurdly broken. There wasn't anything wrong with it at all. I think you and everyone else need to go back to playing WOW, I've played WOW and didn't like it. Its obvious you did, go back and please stop trying to make DDO WOW.

The DEV's say that there was/is. They are the ONLY ones with the proper information to make the decision and the power to do something about it. They have.

End of story.

End of line.