Updated Death Penalty and Permanent Item Damage Changes

[Razvan]

Good question. Glad you asked.

In my current situation, lets settle several things.

- I don't do loot runs. (it's lame and boring)
- I don't do alot of alternate character playing. (ie: I don't' have alot of super geared alts)
- My current character is MAXED on faction. Meaning I've run every quest in this game on elite. (and I don't really have the desire to repeat most of them)
- I currently have just over 100k plat. (not rich by any stretch)
- I have over 40 Raid loot drops. (ie: pretty stong gear)
- Raid loot chests are not known for great cash loot either.

When I log in, I like to Raid. With the Abbot raid, I can rack up 10-12 deaths a night. (not because I am sloppy, but because that's what it takes when you are doing something hard/unbeaten as intended)
However, in turn I can run VoN, or the Twilight Forge and pretty much make back all that XP. (I like raiding) it's my "FUN".

But I highly doubt that I'd make anywhere near enough $$ to pay for all the repair debt. In fact I'm pretty sure of it.
Sorry the Cash loot in those quests just don't cut it.

After all my current Repair bill (despite Item Defense 2) is still pretty high. And on top of that I'm a frequent Potion Buyer.
So my money out is pretty much countered by the measly loot that trickles in, and the occasional auction house sell.

So here's my conclusion.

Play Less.

Instead of giving the Abbot a good 6-10 trys a night Plus a VoN run, it'll be 1-3 abbots and Some loot run.(which i don't like doing)

Congratulations, You've found a reason for me (a dedicated player) to actually desire to play less.

So if all of a sudden the rent where you live at goes up 200 $ what do you do? Look for a better paying job or even part-time work or eat less?

[moorewr]

So if all of a sudden the rent where you live at goes up 200 $ what do you do? Look for a better paying job or even part-time work or eat less?

Vorpal the landlord?

[Yukiko]

Well, let me brain storm to help your problem.

um.... Don't Die 10-12 times!

People are going to have to change their stratagies

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Well, let me brain storm to help your problem.

um.... Don't Die 10-12 times!

People are going to have to change their stratagies

but my main is a necrophiliac. He loves to die, he thinks it brings him closer to his god.

[Ciaran]

LOL, s'okay, sometimes the obvious needs to be stated But yeah, I certainly agree.



Hmmm, no, I'm not fundamentally disappointed with this game at all. I in fact feel like this is one of the best games ever created (for me, anyway). I've put more time into this game (in terms of playing and writing the planner and posting on the forums and just thinking about my next character build) than any game I've ever played previously, so that's saying a lot about how I feel about this game, I think

That being said, there are aspects of this game I would like to see changed, yes. I think the DP as currently proposed is still a bit on the light side (although better than the XP debt we have now), and yes, I think allowing twinking was a bad move. Those are my opinions.

I can live with those systems as they are, sure. But I think it would be a better game overall with those changes.



Is that not what we all do when we post our ideas and debates on the forums?


Sure, I haven't taken anything you said personally. You seem to be receptive to having a civil debate over the subject, and gererally I think that's how I tend to be as well. If I had never had this very debate before, I would certainly be up for it. I love a good debate (as I think everyone knows by now, heh).



Well there's the sticking point. The thing is, I HAVE had this debate before, and honestly, I just don't have the energy to go through it again, heh. I have a ton of coding staring me in the face right now and I just don't have the time today to get into it. For that I apologize, for I'm sure it would be a good one. It's not that I feel my arguments are weak, nor do I mind exposing them to allow someone to tear them down (I have certainly had that happen before, and have even changed my mind based on others arguments).


Well, what I meant was more that UO, EQ, WoW, CoH, etc are all more in the same vein than DDO is. I personally feel that DDO is in a class by itself. While sure, it is technically a MMOG, it has what I feel are *significant* play differences that make arguments that "All other MMOGs do it THIS way" less relevent. Not *totally irrelevent* mind you, just not as binding.


Actually, yes and no. It also has a lot to do with Level 4 characters running around with twinked out gear, not necessarily just the big 5 weapons.


There is no OBJECTIVE way (that I can think of) to quantify the difficulty of a dungeon. So all we have is our subjective opinions. And those are going to be quite different based on party make-up, equipment, player skill level, and so on. I can point at a new quest (as opposed to one that was here at launch) and say "this quest is harder than that quest, though they are the same CR level" and blame it on twinking (which is in fact the gist of my argument). The problem with that is the subjectivity, because you can come back and say you don't think that quest is any harder than this other quest at the same CR. And then we're stuck, because what we both have are subjective opinions, hehe. See what I mean?

Now, forgive me if this part sounds presumptuous, but I think I have a better grasp on the relative difficulties of the dungeons than most other people. Why? Because for about the last year I've been on a personal quest to solo DDO with an untwinked character. What that means is I've taken various builds (cause I'm always looking for the best solo build) and run them through the level 1-6 dungeons A LOT, heh. It takes out of the equation party make-up, equipment differences (since I'm untwinked), and player skill level (since it's always me playing). By doing that, I can get a pretty good idea of how they stack up against each other.

So when I say I think the newer dungeons are harder than the older ones, while it is still a very subjective opinion, I think it carries a bit of weight. Now, beyond level 6 I've run them less (many of my solo builds didn't work out beyond that level). I've soloed much of this game through level 8 or 9, but it's true that I have LESS of a good feel for the relative difficulties of those dungeons. And beyond level 9 I'm the same as everyone else, I've essentally only done them with groups or very twinked out, so my opinion on those is no better or worse than anyone else's.



And again, I would totally agree. They ARE both valid styles of play. BUT (isn't there always a but?, heh) the problem is that the play of others affects the way the game is designed. Which is the crux of my argument. If the devs didn't change how they designed content based on how people are equipped, I would have absolutely zero problem with twinking. But I honestly believe that is not the case. I take it you don't think that's true, which is fine. But I can tell you I think there is a fair bit of content in this game that my non-twinked characters will never get to run. It's the very reason why I have (reluctantly) begun to twink a couple of my characters, because I would like to see that content at some point, and I don't think I will ever get to unless I give in and give a couple of my characters the advantages that everyone else has.


You won't get proof. I can provide examples that I think support my argument, and we can go on to debate the points if you like. Somehow you are managing to drag me into a debate that I really didn't want to have again, LOL. Dang you! You're going to make me miss my deadline

LOL Don't miss your deadline on account of me!

I see where you're coming from now and understand your POV a little better. I guess I misintepreted your stance based on some things you said. I don't necessarily agree that twinked level 4's are as game-breaking as you suggest, but you're right, we could go back and forth on that forever. Heh, I guess we're just bound to be, on some things, the yin to each other's yang. You keep on pushing for harsher death penalties and an end to twinking and I'll keep on defending twinking (to an extent) and keep pushing for death penalties that make sense and are fair for everybody.

Who knows, we'll probably wind up meeting in the middle on some things!

Thank you for recognizing my intent, by the way. I'm always willing to engage in respectful debate and admit that I could be mistaken or have a weaker argument.

I guess I have trouble understanding how, aside from affecting capped characters this new death penalty is better or harsher than XP Debt, especially from the perspective of somebody who wants a harsh death penalty. This hits player's pockets which actually has more of an effect on the usually broke casual players and new players than experienced players and powergamers. I guess it's the next step in the evolution of the game.

Well, being that you're soloing content that was never originally intended to be soloed (in fact they went backwards and added solo difficulty and made certain quests solo only) I think your perspective could be skewed because of that. Aren't CR's based upon a party of four characters? I don't mean to insult your methods, as you seem rather intelligent, but I'm curious to understand how you've arrived at the conclusion that some newer quests are harder and twinked characters are likely the cause for that by soloing quests that are intended for a full group of 4 to 6? Or are you only doing these quests on the solo difficulty.

Couldn't it just be that the devs saw people, twinked and untwinked soloing certain content and decided to amp up the challenge, completely irrespective of whether or not the character was twinked? Hmm...this makes me want to test things in the same way you have. Is it possible to make a 28 point character if you have the ability to make 32?

At the end of the day, we're not arguing anything (loot/twinking/death penalty) that hasn't been argued to death on these forums or other forums, including non-MMO multiplayer games. Point-in-fact, on the Prisoners of the Mist forums I mentioned in a previous post there was recently a very lively debate about changing the death system there and the dropping of loot is constantly being mentioned and debated too. It's all par for the course I suppose!

Take your time responding, Ron, and it can be in a PM if you want. In truth I'm looking to duck out of work (last day of the year for me, woo!) and will probably be too busy playing/baking/spending time with the missus to come back on the forums - this is my way of passing idle hours at work, heh.

Have a good holiday season!

[ArkoHighStar]

Good question. Glad you asked.

In my current situation, lets settle several things.

- I don't do loot runs. (it's lame and boring)
- I don't do alot of alternate character playing. (ie: I don't' have alot of super geared alts)
- My current character is MAXED on faction. Meaning I've run every quest in this game on elite. (and I don't really have the desire to repeat most of them)
- I currently have just over 100k plat. (not rich by any stretch)
- I have over 40 Raid loot drops. (ie: pretty stong gear)
- Raid loot chests are not known for great cash loot either.

When I log in, I like to Raid. With the Abbot raid, I can rack up 10-12 deaths a night. (not because I am sloppy, but because that's what it takes when you are doing something hard/unbeaten as intended)
However, in turn I can run VoN, or the Twilight Forge and pretty much make back all that XP. (I like raiding) it's my "FUN".

But I highly doubt that I'd make anywhere near enough $$ to pay for all the repair debt. In fact I'm pretty sure of it.
Sorry the Cash loot in those quests just don't cut it.

After all my current Repair bill (despite Item Defense 2) is still pretty high. And on top of that I'm a frequent Potion Buyer.
So my money out is pretty much countered by the measly loot that trickles in, and the occasional auction house sell.

So here's my conclusion.

Play Less.

Instead of giving the Abbot a good 6-10 trys a night Plus a VoN run, it'll be 1-3 abbots and Some loot run.(which i don't like doing)

Congratulations, You've found a reason for me (a dedicated player) to actually desire to play less.

So from what I see here you are dying 10-12 times doing the quest 6-10 so maybe 1.5 deaths a try max not bad, so damage is not going to get your equipment broken in one quest, thats a good start, and after 10 deaths you are looking at a 5kpp repair bill total. With all the Von's or Twilight Forge you should be able to make that up easy. Chances are when this is implemented you will be doing the pre reqs which are all 15-16 lvl on normal, you will easy make enough then, and since the raid is not a stand up fight anymore, even on failure chances are you will have gotten 2 or 3 chests, enough to pay for any repairs

[bellack]

I have a question. With this new system does it mean there will be no permanent damage to items at all. Or is this to mean that damage from death would not be permanent?

[Eladrin]

I have a question. With this new system does it mean there will be no permanent damage to items at all. Or is this to mean that damage from death would not be permanent?

Bound items will have no further permanent damage inflicted on them. For unbound items, damage from death is ignored for permanent damage calculations. But if you tend to stick your unbound weapons into slimes, they still won't be happy.

[Bladedge]

So from what I see here you are dying 10-12 times doing the quest 6-10 so maybe 1.5 deaths a try max not bad, so damage is not going to get your equipment broken in one quest, thats a good start, and after 10 deaths you are looking at a 5kpp repair bill total. With all the Von's or Twilight Forge you should be able to make that up easy. Chances are when this is implemented you will be doing the pre reqs which are all 15-16 lvl on normal, you will easy make enough then, and since the raid is not a stand up fight anymore, even on failure chances are you will have gotten 2 or 3 chests, enough to pay for any repairs

5k Platinum Pieces is different from 5k Gold Pieces. I took my WF and my gear agaist elite rust monsters and elite slimes and beat my SOS down to 0 durability untill it was unusable died about 12 times (**** those elite rusties) and my repairs did not go past 20k Gold Pieces. My SOS cost apx 7.5k Gold Pieces to repair not 7.5k Platinum Pieces. Make sure your use the correct monentary standard.
Your making the repair costs sound more expensive when mix up plat and gold.

[Ciaran]

Ooops! OK, you're right - I'm wrong (don't know how the hell I missed that part).

Even still, I think the change is a silly waste of time & more importantly it will be much harder on the truely new players to the game (who are monetarily challanged) vs those who are already established. Besides, isn't having people work off their XP debt by questing more a good thing (since they are playing more)?

Don't sweat it, happens to me all the time, I just happened to be on the opposite end for a change!

Oh I agree - it is likely that it's going to hit newer players and casual players harder than others. I guess we'll find out for sure when it goes live. Hopefully not, but we'll see.

Really though, it's six one way half a dozen the other. People working off XP debt and questing or people questing to get plat to repair their gear - in that regards it comes out in the wash.

[Riot]

Your argument seems to be that you should be able to die without having to pay the costs for it. Yes, we're all aware that the XP penalty wasn't really that bad, especially for capped characters like you. This was part of what needed to be fixed. And so under the new system you have to pony up and actually do a bit of work to make up for your deaths. It's not the end of the world.

Wow Mystic I thought you would have known the answer to this one.

"Work for your deaths"? lets see how the phrase seems to go....

"I don't come home from work, to "WORK" on the game."
"I play the game to have FUN and not work."

So the casual role player has either admitted this game is work, or forgotten we're supposed to be having fun.
Why does this always seem to flip around at others convenience? And not the Raiders?

The XP penalty isn't the culprit.
I challenge anyone to tell me what the problem was with it and not link it back to the fact that there isn't enough content.

So if all of a sudden the rent where you live at goes up 200 $ what do you do? Look for a better paying job or even part-time work or eat less?

Find a new place to live. or sue them for breach of contract (if it's during a contracts duration).

AoC is looking better day by day.

Well, let me brain storm to help your problem.

um.... Don't Die 10-12 times!

People are going to have to change their stratagies

Either you are suggesting that I exploit, or that you know how to beat the Abbot raid as intended.
And I'm doubting the second.

I don't feel like running other quests for the 4-100th time. Thanks but no thanks.
Besides when you finally get around to defeating the Abbot, you'll most likely be using some form of strategy that was handed down from those of us who DIED to bring you the info. Some thanks might be appreciated if not in order.

So from what I see here you are dying 10-12 times doing the quest 6-10 so maybe 1.5 deaths a try max not bad, so damage is not going to get your equipment broken in one quest, thats a good start, and after 10 deaths you are looking at a 5kpp repair bill total. With all the Von's or Twilight Forge you should be able to make that up easy. Chances are when this is implemented you will be doing the pre reqs which are all 15-16 lvl on normal, you will easy make enough then, and since the raid is not a stand up fight anymore, even on failure chances are you will have gotten 2 or 3 chests, enough to pay for any repairs

5kp Repair bill. For instance. Subtract 2-3 K in potions. 7-8k per.

One run through VoN or T forge does not net 7-8k Plat with any sort of reliability. You have to be the luckiest loot puller I've ever seen. Your lucky if you break 2k.

I might have to take a screen shot of my repair bill through 1 VoN run. On my To Do list.

[moorewr]

The XP penalty isn't the culprit.
I challenge anyone to tell me what the problem was with it and not link it back to the fact that there isn't enough content.

Hey, let me call out this one.

If you are not an established player, working on yet another character to cap, or your skills or borderline, you are going to get killed. If you are an occasional player on top of that your visit to the game can run this way -- wait for a while to join a pug, try a quest beyond your abilities, die. Give up (or finish breaking even), further from level than ever.

Now, we all know the solution is to get better at the game, but evidently Turbine is losing too many of these players before they make it up the learning curve. I'd rather have them stick around so the game remains viable and growing.

(For the record, content is king!, but I've been a "dedicated casual" player for a year, and there are a dozen-plus quests I have never run with any character)

[Laith]

Riot, you bring up an obvious point: learning new content is going to be INCREDIBLY more expensive.
I can't help but think this was considered & intended. I'd venture to guess that MOST raid focused players also spend quite a bit of time farming for loot. Of course, i may be mistaken.

I see another issue though: questing without using known exploits (or tricks, if that's more comfortable for you) becomes even more costly.
Seriously, i feel as dirty after taking advantage of pathing bugs or terrain oversights ("safe spots") as many do... but am i seriously going to spend large sums of plat that i don't have to, just to stand on principle? Am i going to ask my party or guild to?

probably not, but i suppose that's not really the concern of any death penalty. heck, the death penalty that makes me take means (even cheating) to not die IS working, afterall.

[bellack]

Says you, i still say as many other do, there was nothing wrong with it.

I have to agree. I keep seeing post saying that the current Death XP penalty was broken and needed to be taken out. However no one has posted (At least I have not seen it) what about that system was broken. Seem to work great to me.

[Ciaran]

I have to agree. I keep seeing post saying that the current Death XP penalty was broken and needed to be taken out. However no one has posted (At least I have not seen it) what about that system was broken. Seem to work great to me.

The closest thing I've seen is (paraphrasing) "new players cited it as a major turn off because they were losing hours and hours of progress because they died and some existing players stated the same complaint, basically that they were losing hours of playing because they died and lost XP.

I'm not saying I buy it or agree with it (if you're level 4 how often do you need to die to not come out on the positive end of the experience curve after a night of questing?), but that's what was stated that I saw/recall.

[Laith]

The closest thing I've seen is (paraphrasing) "new players cited it as a major turn off because they were losing hours and hours of progress because they died and some existing players stated the same complaint, basically that they were losing hours of playing because they died and lost XP.

That, and suddenly you are granted Death Penalty Immunity upon capping your character.

Arguements have been had about how big of a problem this really is, but the fact remains that death just doesn't matter if you're capped.

I'm not saying I buy it or agree with it (if you're level 4 how often do you need to die to not come out on the positive end of the experience curve after a night of questing?)

That depends entirely on how confident the party you've found is, and which quests they've decided to run. Quests like Kobold Assault offer very little XP for the risk taken, and have a handy reusable res shrine to crank out the penalty with.

[kengsxr]

It wouldn't scale quite as well to the true "net worth" of the character, and would heavily encourage "plat mules" to hoard all your money. (Of course, then we could check "worth of account", but then we just end up with even more complicated solutions and ways to dodge around them.)

The current proposed system scales well because it automatically adjusts depending whether a character is a fully twinked out uber-lowbie, a true newbie wearing rags, a roleplayer that stops to visit all the sights and is still wearing that Masterwork Hide Armor because it just looks totally awesome, or the most extreme powergamer living on the edge with the best of the best gear.

Ah haaaa you have finally exposed the true intent of this change!!! You want our money!! you are trying to fix the broken economy by taking plat from us.
We at least know what your motives are.

[moorewr]

The closest thing I've seen is (paraphrasing) "new players cited it as a major turn off because they were losing hours and hours of progress because they died and some existing players stated the same complaint, basically that they were losing hours of playing because they died and lost XP.

I'm not saying I buy it or agree with it (if you're level 4 how often do you need to die to not come out on the positive end of the experience curve after a night of questing?), but that's what was stated that I saw/recall.

Eladrin didn't share any specifics... so we can only guess at specifics, or even how much exit surveys drove this. My hunch based on personal PUG experience (and I've been in the best and worst PUGs I've ever seen recently) is that the border-line players cruise through the low levels and crater around level 8-9.

[Riot]

Two things I'd like to note here.

one, I have a 14 year old daughter who plays DDO. She's not a power gamers, nor a leet gamer.

I've never heard complaint one about the XP penalty being too much to compensate for.
Ergo I don't fully buy the excuse that "newbies lose hours of time" from XP loss.

Secondly, Why do they lose "hours of time"?

Is it from lack of finding groups?
or from lack of experience?

If it's from lack of being able to find a group, then I think this whole thing has been WAY OVER LOOKING the REAL problem.
If it's from lack of experience then why not suggest a smaller XP penalty at lower levels?

Why the "everything must break" option?

[bellack]

Bound items will have no further permanent damage inflicted on them. For unbound items, damage from death is ignored for permanent damage calculations. But if you tend to stick your unbound weapons into slimes, they still won't be happy.

Ok that is good. I would hate for items not to have perm damage at all. Infact it would be pretty lame in a slime or rust monster could not do perm damage to your equitment. That is what makes them scary.