Updated Death Penalty and Permanent Item Damage Changes

[muffinlad]

Jeers to all devs. bound items should either be bound to an account or be able to be unbound at some sort of cost. Again, doing things without thinking them thru. The XP debt penalty worked and was fine, now we have a new system because people wanted DDO to be more like WOW. To them I say, if you want WOW, go play WOW, this is DDO. Welp, I guess its going to take the mass exidous that will occour to make the devs realize that the die hards were the only ones keeping them with a job.

I can't imagine a single person I play with agreeing with you, so in my limited world view, I guess we will have to wait and see. If they lose more than 3 people out of 25k that play, I would be very surprised.

bind....is bind....is bind.

muffinbound

[GeneralDiomedes]

Jeers to all devs. bound items should either be bound to an account or be able to be unbound at some sort of cost. Again, doing things without thinking them thru. The XP debt penalty worked and was fine, now we have a new system because people wanted DDO to be more like WOW. To them I say, if you want WOW, go play WOW, this is DDO. Welp, I guess its going to take the mass exidous that will occour to make the devs realize that the die hards were the only ones keeping them with a job.

The XP penalty did not work well for capped players <<ABBOT NOT WITHSTANDING>>, end of story.

As for the WOW comparison, I applaud their handling of death and binding now that I actually understand what it is. Believe me .. I was the LAST person I thought would say that. Their FAQ even goes so far as to say that without a death penalty .. gameplay has no meaning. I couldn't agree more.

[Prinstoni]

Don't leave over this, that's nuts. Leave if you are bored, but don't do it because of some silly line in the sand.

Also, you can mail your uber unbound gear to any of the characters in my sig. :P

You know, I'd vote for the new system being added to the existing XP debt.
*is lead away to the Guillotine by the mob*

Honetly man, this is just silly that the devs keep fixing what is not broken instead of fixing what is.

It has been "fix" "fix" "fix" like this for the last 1.5 years. I don't get it. I have been saying for the entire time that I got my forum account (which seems to be a complete waste of my time) that the devs need to concentrate on new content, fix the things we ask to be fixed, stop catering to the "new" players (if that is the issue), and STOP FIXING things we do not want fixed. I have learned however if we make enough noise, they will eventually bend a little (slighlty compensate instead of throwing the bad idea out all together), but by that time they decide to unchange a "fix" (r tone it down a bit) several people leave and once they are gone they usually don't come back.

If I bend over on this one, when will it stop? Someone has to make the sacrifice, and so be it if, if I have to be the marter (I am sure others will join me).

Although I like you mate, my gear will most likely die with my characters. Maybe it will help some with the lag issues by reducing some of the items in the game, and maybe that is what Turbine wants.

[Ciaran]

It kind of puts off the big 400 lb gorilla in the corner for the time being. In that eventually uber items will be so plentiful as to make the game almost trivial.
If everyone walked around with a vorpal, a banisher, a disruptor, what kind of thing does that do?

Well from a developer side you have to make the game a challenge so then what happens is you get more over the top and unfun quests like the Abbott so the powergamers can have their crack while us casuals are left in the cold unable to do the higher end stuff not having the time to grind to get the better stuff.
Its what happened in the card game MTG. Eventually it got to a critical mass point where the game was simply not playable anymore as there was a noticeable gap between the haves and the have nots. So much so that they had to revamp the rules to counter it.

So now instead of having a mechanic that reduce uber loot you have one that keeps it at the same rate it is now.
Which is ok for the current time frame but in the future its going to cause a major economic crash in the system.
The scenario is that every one playing will have a million plat or more, everyone will have a vorpal or disruptor. And to not have one is to be considered gimped.
People flood to the AH's looking for these weapons which are amazingly abundant and cheap. People buy them up with their new found wealth. The pooring of money into the system and to players is massive and inflation ultimately sets in as posters have to raise prices trying to get as much as they can but it has the reverse effect as suddenly everyone has all of the most uber weapons available, 20 million plat, and the demand drops sharply as everyone has attained what they want.
Suddenly quests become easy, new raids are beaten in a matter of hours not days after release, devs become frustrated and go out and design these overly massively difficult quests with bosses that kill you on zone in.

Maybe it wont happen. Maybe it will never happen.
IN the end I like the change, it makes everyone happy. Bravo to the devs for listening.
But it doesn't change the problem eventhough it is small at the moment.
I think this will have to be addressed again down the line at some point. The issue is do we deal with it now or later.
Looks like later.
Not mad, or complaining but it is something to consider.

I haven't done the Abbot raid - in fact I've only done two quests in the Orchard, so I can only regurgitate what I've heard from others about that quest. From what I understand the most frustrating aspect of that is the twitch reflex aspect (timing your jumps at the right time), not the combat aspect, therefore arguments about needing a vorpal or disruptor or what have you don't apply.

In the Gianthold 6-man the most plentiful foe you fight are all giants and they're all immune to death effects, so you need good ole' fashion tactics, CC and DPS. For that matter vorpals, disruptors and the like aren't necessary to run any quest in game. I'd argue that they are in fact a crutch more often than not. To that end, relying on vorpals, disruptors, et al I'd consider to be far more gimped than not having one. Sure, they can make things easier if the dice roll right, but somehow I made it through Madstone Elite my first go around without anybody having a vorpal or paralyzer.

I can't tell you how many times running BAM I used to think "As soon as the paladin gets Tesyus it's a cake walk" only to have them get dropped because they traded DPS for insta-death effects and weren't dropping them quickly enough. Once we all realized that vorpals aren't a guaranteed win, we stopped letting our tactics slip. Speaking of BAM, last night I ran it with three other people using vorpals while I used my SOS - I had more kills than the rest of them put together. Obviously the vorpal goddess is a fickle mistress and the disparity in kills would've been much less if not non-existant had they been using something else.

Now, as far as items that aren't part of the big 5 (vorpals, disruptors, smiters, paralyzers, banishers (most of which suck, btw)) Most of them aren't that hard to come by. People who play the game more are making a longer term investment and commitment to the game - they're the people who use the product a lot and are understandably the people that are going to have the most influence on the game's direction. If some people only play for a few hours a week, they're naturally enough not going to statiscally have the opportunity to get better items and they are having less impact in the game overall.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is what proof do people have that the devs are designing quests and adjusting their difficulty around the items the players have? Aside from the Gianthold 6-man, in which case they made the most prevalent enemy immune to death effects, which actually levels the playing ground. With the right tactics and set up you don't need mighty, mighty weapons to win at that quest - a caster with flesh to stone, a bard with dancing sphere and fighters with something as simple and inexpensive as the Giant Stalker's Knife can complete that quest with little trouble.

Keep in mind this is an MMO, an ever-changing game. It's not static, like NWN or NWN2 in which even if you play for only an hour a week you'll eventually get that +5 whatever that resides in that chest in that dungeon during that chapter. MMO's, but their nature tend to reward people who devote the most time to them. If something has 5&#37; chance of dropping and you play the game for five hours a day, your chance of getting that item is far better than if you play the game five hours in a month.

Also, what are you referring to with MTG? It seems to me what you stated really only applies if you are competing, in which case there should be a disparity between the have and have nots. Otherwise, normal friendly play shouldn't be affected.

[moorewr]

Heh. I was only kidding about the gear. Just the ol' "can I have your stuff" line.

Well, Eladrin states that xp debt is a frequent topic of complaint - but since we are not privy to the numbers he is looking at we can only take his word. Was it serious enough that changing it now was necessary for the viability of the game? I can't answer that one. I agree that what matters most, by far, is new content.

I would have announced it now for Mod 7.. I run the servers for a private college, and deal with perhaps 5000 users, and I am very cautious about "program change," more cautious than Turbine is about the game environment.

There's two things at work here - one is your actual game experience, which will hardly change. You'll burn a little plat on the occasional death. If you stick around you might even get to do a bit of crafting with your bound gear, and that sounds like fun.

The other is the meta-game, your status vis a vis other players, and this seems to be where your focus lies. No xp debt will potentially accelerate advancement; on the other hand bad players will crater even more quickly because they will be unable to coast through quests on the backs of others or by riding out wipes so easily as they do now.

Being a martyr makes no sense for your gaming experience unless you are no longer having fun. It makes a bit of sense for the meta-game, I suppose. My view is that my decision whether to stay subscribed depends on whether I am myself having fun. I'll fight the metagame questions in the forums.

Honetly man, this is just silly that the devs keep fixing what is not broken instead of fixing what is.

It has been "fix" "fix" "fix" like this for the last 1.5 years. I don't get it. I have been saying for the entire time that I got my forum account (which seems to be a complete waste of my time) that the devs need to concentrate on new content, fix the things we ask to be fixed, stop catering to the "new" players (if that is the issue), and STOP FIXING things we do not want fixed. I have learned however if we make enough noise, they will eventually bend a little (slighlty compensate instead of throwing the bad idea out all together), but by that time they decide to unchange a "fix" (r tone it down a bit) several people leave and once they are gone they usually don't come back.

If I bend over on this one, when will it stop? Someone has to make the sacrifice, and so be it if, if I have to be the marter (I am sure others will join me).

Although I like you mate, my gear will most likely die with my characters. Maybe it will help some with the lag issues by reducing some of the items in the game, and maybe that is what Turbine wants.

[Ciaran]

Heh. I was only kidding about the gear. Just the ol' "can I have your stuff" line.

Well, Eladrin states that xp debt is a frequent topic of complaint - but since we are not privy to the numbers he is looking at we can only take his word. Was it serious enough that changing it now was necessary for the viability of the game? I can't answer that one. I agree that what matters most, by far, is new content.

I would have announced it now for Mod 7.. I run the servers for a private college, and deal with perhaps 5000 users, and I am very cautious about "program change," more cautious than Turbine is about the game environment.

There's two things at work here - one is your actual game experience, which will hardly change. You'll burn a little plat on the occasional death. If you stick around you might even get to do a bit of crafting with your bound gear, and that sounds like fun.

The other is the meta-game, your status vis a vis other players, and this seems to be where your focus lies. No xp debt will potentially accelerate advancement; on the other hand bad players will crater even more quickly because they will be unable to coast through quests on the backs of others or by riding out wipes so easily as they do now.

Being a martyr makes no sense for your gaming experience unless you are no longer having fun. It makes a bit of sense for the meta-game, I suppose. My view is that my decision whether to stay subscribed depends on whether I am myself having fun. I'll fight the metagame questions in the forums.

Excellent points, especially about no XP debt potentially accelerating advancement - which isn't necessarily a good thing...does Turbine really want more players with capped characters griping about "lack of content" and demanding extra character slots? I'm being mostly tongue in cheek, btw, but the point still stands.

I guess though it really comes down to how much you play. Even if you are a terrible player if you play for a long enough you'll eventually get capped. If you are a good to average player and don't play a lot, the debt is probably more meaningful to you. It all comes down to time invested in the game and frequency of play. There really isn't that effective of a way to deal with both ends of that particular spectrum - casual players will potentially be behind on XP debt, frequent players will be mostly unaffected.

Can't blame Turbine for trying though.

[MysticTheurge]

Excellent points, especially about no XP debt potentially accelerating advancement - which isn't necessarily a good thing...does Turbine really want more players with capped characters griping about "lack of content" and demanding extra character slots? I'm being mostly tongue in cheek, btw, but the point still stands.

I suspect the people who had a problem with the XP debt aren't the kind of people who cap out quickly and then complain about content.

I'd wager the people who do that were seldom restricted or held back by the XP debt in any significant fashion anyway.

[Ciaran]

I suspect the people who had a problem with the XP debt aren't the kind of people who cap out quickly and then complain about content.

I'd wager the people who do that were seldom restricted or held back by the XP debt in any significant fashion anyway.

Good point. I still don't think accelerating advancement is necessarily good - it's easy enough to advance through the levels as it is, 8-11 notwithstanding.

[GrayOldDruid]

I love the no xp debt... maybe now I will be able to go into Crucible and learn the dang swim.... and the reflex-a-thon room....

Dying over and over and coming out with STILL negative xp from Crucible was NOT good. Now, just unequipp everything and swim, swim, swim... quaffing potions all the way. (maybe leave my boots of swimming equipped...oh, and the UA item)

Those who want to leave the game because of this adjusted new death penalty : Can I have your stuff?? And I am serious.


(and when can I get my forum icon to NOT match Ciaran's ?? )

[Razvan]

I don't understand the objections to the "no xp penalty" system:

> Casual players, who only get to play once or twice a week, and who pay the same amount of money a month as everyone else want to NOT spend their 1 hour every few days playing to get back the xp they lost dieing that one night when the group tried to do SC on elite and wiped 10 times. On the other hand, if all that death does to casual players is give them a small debuff and makes them repiar their gear (which can be repaired by even the most "casual" of players - the loot from one quest is more than enough to sell and repair your gear) then they can level up their toon quick enough (took me 67 days to level a sorc to 14).

> Powergamers don't care about xp penalty when dieing. They die, they rez, they move on. They will get their toon to 14 no matter if there is a death penalty or not. At the same time, powergamers usually have tons of loot and plat, so paying to fix their gear should not put even the slightest dent in their retirement funds.

So the devs decided that Average Joe who plays 4 hours a week is entitled, since he is paying the same amount a month as SuperLootGuy, to reach the level cap in 40 days instead of 60 so he can start leveling up another toon afterwards. They figured that the change does not affect in ANY way the power gamers because they can still reach the cap easy AND they will have the plat to pay for repairing their gear.

Where is the logic in not agrreing with this change?

[Ciaran]

I love the no xp debt... maybe now I will be able to go into Crucible and learn the dang swim.... and the reflex-a-thon room....

Dying over and over and coming out with STILL negative xp from Crucible was NOT good. Now, just unequipp everything and swim, swim, swim... quaffing potions all the way. (maybe leave my boots of swimming equipped...oh, and the UA item)

Those who want to leave the game because of this adjusted new death penalty : Can I have your stuff?? And I am serious.


(and when can I get my forum icon to NOT match Ciaran's ?? )

How is this different from people regarding death as trivial when they were capped? You're basically saying with no fear of death and XP loss you can risk dying repeatedly to learn how to do something in game? Isn't that the same thing?

Not sure how to take your last comment. All you have to do is go to User CP and change your avatar.

[LordFancyPants]

Honetly man, this is just silly that the devs keep fixing what is not broken instead of fixing what is.

The death penalty WAS most certainly broken

It has been "fix" "fix" "fix" like this for the last 1.5 years. I don't get it. I have been saying for the entire time that I got my forum account (which seems to be a complete waste of my time) that the devs need to concentrate on new content, fix the things we ask to be fixed, stop catering to the "new" players (if that is the issue), and STOP FIXING things we do not want fixed. I have learned however if we make enough noise, they will eventually bend a little (slighlty compensate instead of throwing the bad idea out all together), but by that time they decide to unchange a "fix" (r tone it down a bit) several people leave and once they are gone they usually don't come back.

You understand that Turbine is doing all of these things right? They have a group of Devs fixing old stuff and another group creating new stuff. You don't believe me? Then why is Mod 6 coming out? According to you, Turbine's entire staff has been fixing "unbroken" stuff lately. When did they get the time to make Mod 6 then? And, of course they are catering to new players... why? Because they are part of their gamer base as well. Notice I didn't say that they EXCLUSIVELY cater to New Players, becuase this isn't true. One of the biggest feedback concerns of new players (and casual players) was that the XP loss kept them from being able to level and enjoy the game. Now that is fixed. But the hard core loot ***** gamers complained about item damage and now they fixed that. Nice compromise.

If I bend over on this one, when will it stop? Someone has to make the sacrifice, and so be it if, if I have to be the marter (I am sure others will join me).

Really? Then do it. How many of these "I'm not happy and I'm gonna leave" posts have you made? Seroiusly, it's obvious that you've been unhappy with this game for a while. Move on then. You're just one guy and while your concerns are very important to you, it's obvious that Turbine has a different agenda than satisfying Pristoni's every whim.

Although I like you mate, my gear will most likely die with my characters. Maybe it will help some with the lag issues by reducing some of the items in the game, and maybe that is what Turbine wants

Thank you for helping with the lag issues. Those of us who are remaining appreaciate that. Have a nice day.

[Prinstoni]

I wonder what kind of complaints they will see in the exit surveys when people are taking negative levels and getting damage to their items on death (that increases with level). I think the new death penalty system is just too hard on new players compared to xp penalty, and the current system (although it is fine as it stands) is probably not hard enough on capped characters.

What happens though in the new system when we are in a raid, 2-3 members die, get res'ed, we are on a timer to complete the quest with those players gimped (making it easier for them to die)? Neg levels affect.

Well whatever...Eld already made a slight comprimise, and any hopes of getting more (or not doing it at all) is just worthless. I am tired of the argument and have work to do.

[LordFancyPants]

Not sure how to take your last comment. All you have to do is go to User CP and change your avatar.

I'm sure you shuld just take it as a joke.. but thanks for the info none-the-less. I didn't know how to do it myself!

[GrayOldDruid]

How is this different from people regarding death as trivial when they were capped? You're basically saying with no fear of death and XP loss you can risk dying repeatedly to learn how to do something in game? Isn't that the same thing?

Progress is the issue, for me. I don't mind paying a small amount of time to recover and a small fee to repair. I do mind, very much, having the last 45 min. of play time (progress toward goal, aka XP) eradicated by one slip-up that requires me to spend another 45 min or longer 'making up' the loss (thereby nullifying that 45 min as well.)

It will hurt and I will not 'like' it, but I will not refuse to do the swim now. I will not rely on everyone else knowing the quest.

(as for the icon, just want personalized icons... like a faceshot of my character maybe??, changing now will just match somebody else....)

[xman26]

I don't understand the objections to the "no xp penalty" system:

> Casual players, who only get to play once or twice a week, and who pay the same amount of money a month as everyone else want to NOT spend their 1 hour every few days playing to get back the xp they lost dieing that one night when the group tried to do SC on elite and wiped 10 times. On the other hand, if all that death does to casual players is give them a small debuff and makes them repiar their gear (which can be repaired by even the most "casual" of players - the loot from one quest is more than enough to sell and repair your gear) then they can level up their toon quick enough (took me 67 days to level a sorc to 14).

> Powergamers don't care about xp penalty when dieing. They die, they rez, they move on. They will get their toon to 14 no matter if there is a death penalty or not. At the same time, powergamers usually have tons of loot and plat, so paying to fix their gear should not put even the slightest dent in their retirement funds.

So the devs decided that Average Joe who plays 4 hours a week is entitled, since he is paying the same amount a month as SuperLootGuy, to reach the level cap in 40 days instead of 60 so he can start leveling up another toon afterwards. They figured that the change does not affect in ANY way the power gamers because they can still reach the cap easy AND they will have the plat to pay for repairing their gear.

Where is the logic in not agrreing with this change?

By your definition, I'm a casual gamer and I had 0, zip, zilch, nada problem with the xp debt system or with the fact it took me 10 months to reach 14th and cap out, hell I've only sparingly play my 3 new alt toons and have no issues if it take me another 10 months to cap them out under the xp debt system.

[Emili]

It kind of puts off the big 400 lb gorilla in the corner for the time being. In that eventually uber items will be so plentiful as to make the game almost trivial.
If everyone walked around with a vorpal, a banisher, a disruptor, what kind of thing does that do?

Well from a developer side you have to make the game a challenge so then what happens is you get more over the top and unfun quests like the Abbott so the powergamers can have their crack while us casuals are left in the cold unable to do the higher end stuff not having the time to grind to get the better stuff.
Its what happened in the card game MTG. Eventually it got to a critical mass point where the game was simply not playable anymore as there was a noticeable gap between the haves and the have nots. So much so that they had to revamp the rules to counter it.

So now instead of having a mechanic that reduce uber loot you have one that keeps it at the same rate it is now.
Which is ok for the current time frame but in the future its going to cause a major economic crash in the system.
The scenario is that every one playing will have a million plat or more, everyone will have a vorpal or disruptor. And to not have one is to be considered gimped.
People flood to the AH's looking for these weapons which are amazingly abundant and cheap. People buy them up with their new found wealth. The pooring of money into the system and to players is massive and inflation ultimately sets in as posters have to raise prices trying to get as much as they can but it has the reverse effect as suddenly everyone has all of the most uber weapons available, 20 million plat, and the demand drops sharply as everyone has attained what they want.
Suddenly quests become easy, new raids are beaten in a matter of hours not days after release, devs become frustrated and go out and design these overly massively difficult quests with bosses that kill you on zone in.

Maybe it wont happen. Maybe it will never happen.
IN the end I like the change, it makes everyone happy. Bravo to the devs for listening.
But it doesn't change the problem eventhough it is small at the moment.
I think this will have to be addressed again down the line at some point. The issue is do we deal with it now or later.
Looks like later.
Not mad, or complaining but it is something to consider.

If they kept the chance of perm damage from death in the game the power gamer would be more inclined to hoard rather then share.

Now do not get me wrong - I play like 6 hours a day on average though... though am not bloody rich , bet I have 100k plat on me at most right now... I do have nice gear though and if I bound it and I pulled something nicer - due to the previous perm-damage possibility under death - and pulled something nicer I would replace it and bind the new one before passing it along to the casual player ... thus widening the gap even more between the power gamers and casuals, so it would never change that gap only widen it. The binding process (due to threat of damages) would only serve to increase the prices of items thus making the rare more rare and keeping them in the pwoer gamer hands eliminating more chance the item is passed along to a more casual player.... the quests would not change at all because there are too many power gamers in the game to justify reducing the challenges thus the removal of items in the game by way of damage would only widen the gap between those of us who play more frequently and those who do not.

The reason I do not have tons of plat... is that I pass items to those who can use it - If there was an increased risk of item damage (item removal) then I would be less inclined to do so and bind it.... I would bind an upgrade also... thus it would turn the game into more of the people who have and the people who have not.

[Kavel_Havae]

Honetly man, this is just silly that the devs keep fixing what is not broken instead of fixing what is.

Eladrin has pointed out what the issues have been in regards to what was broken... and why they need to be fixed for the good of the game economy.

It has been "fix" "fix" "fix" like this for the last 1.5 years. I don't get it. I have been saying for the entire time that I got my forum account (which seems to be a complete waste of my time) that the devs need to concentrate on new content, fix the things we ask to be fixed, stop catering to the "new" players (if that is the issue), and STOP FIXING things we do not want fixed.

I would rather have them take care of issues that make the game more enjoyable for everyone... sometime that means I have to take the stick for someone else's gaming experience to be bettered. sometimes we get a boon to our toons even if "we" griped about it (enhancements), there have been some fixes that everyone was complaining about that have been wonderful. as for things that the royal "WE" don't want fixed, sometimes the nobility ("We" long time players) don't have a clue what they have planned. it's their game and can change it for good or ill.

I have learned however if we make enough noise, they will eventually bend a little (slighlty compensate instead of throwing the bad idea out all together), but by that time they decide to unchange a "fix" (r tone it down a bit) several people leave and once they are gone they usually don't come back.

Bottom line is that they listen to rational debate and play/player issues, and adjust what needs to be moved to keep the game in balance. Listening to reasonable requests and interacting with the community is part of their business, and I applaud them for being very proactive and interactive in the past month and a half.

If I bend over on this one, when will it stop? Someone has to make the sacrifice, and so be it if, if I have to be the marter (I am sure others will join me).

I hate to tell you your not being bent over on this... If you feel that this is a "sacrifice" for a game you find no longer enjoyable, be the martyr... but its not much of a "Sacrifice". I personally have a great time with this game and hope to for some time longer, when it becomes a grind to login and "play" and I'm wondering why I'm doing it, it will be time for me to take a break or leave. Espousing hatred, and vitriol to a team of developers that have provided you with a product that you keep paying to play is asinine . I would encourage you to fill out your exit survey so that they may evaluate your opinions.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

=You understand that Turbine is doing all of these things right? They have a group of Devs fixing old stuff and another group creating new stuff.

While they may have two teams, they could also have one team with multiple duties. Either way, fixing old stuff does slow down new stuff. Why you say? Let's say I have the budget for 10 programmers. If I put all 1 on old stuff, that leaves me 9 for new. If I put 2 on old, 8 for new. So yes, fixing old stuff does slow down new stuff. Does't mean they shouldn't do it, but you are wrong to say that doing one doessn't impact another.

[Ciaran]

(as for the icon, just want personalized icons... like a faceshot of my character maybe??)

Ah, that'd be nice, but currently it isn't possible, there's just a set list of icons to choose from.