Oh the ignorance!

[Blind_Skwerl]

You can continue to think this, but I do have and use a capped spellsinger bard to compliment characters on my main account. Bards are excellent 2nd account characters, specifically due to their adaptability and their enhanced ability to improve the abilities of others. Contrary to what you say, I'm acutely aware of exactly what a bard can do, and I find it nifty... but not the be-all-end-all to uberness like most people in the bard forums appear to think.

The way some here are talking, no party has ever been successful without a bard

But the way you were talking, it was as if you were saying every party would be better if they picked up a different class instead of a bard. Both are irrational statements.

[brshelton]

Nice umd. How'd you do that? My 34 charisma drow sorc hits 27 umd with the golden cartouche and max points into umd. with 7 fingered, I'd hit 29... still not enough to play healer IMO.

8.5 ranks+12 cha modifier+5 gloves+2 head of good fortune+4 gh+3 skill focus=34 ok so i was one off +2 bard song is 36 those awesome bards

[Blind_Skwerl]

Ok no sf:umd for me (I use my precious 5 feats for spellcasting)
I haven't got the head of good fortune.
And if I were fortunate enough to be partying with a bard, he/she'd prolly have a better chance doing the healing.

[Obitus]

is a 35 umd not high enough? my sorc will hit that with +2 tome and 7 fingered gloves

That's very impressive for a Sorcerer, but all other things being equal, Bards have a pretty huge UMD advantage over Sorcs (9 points at level 14). With your set up, an equivalent Bard would have 44 UMD.

Realistically, though, most Sorcs don't take Skill Focus in UMD. Granted, most Bards probably don't have 34 CHA or SF either, but even still they likely have a 5-7 point advantage on average. If they took the Spellsinger Enhancement, then that's a further +2 to UMD which the Sorc can't make up.

None of this is to say that your particular Sorc can't do a decent job as a backup healer using UMD, but Skwerl's general point remains.

[Emili]

Like most classes, it depends a lot more on the player than the build.

The vast majority of bards that I have run across tend to equate to "wasted party spot" unless they're covering some key ability that the rest of the party is lacking (haste, possibly healing). Since I usually PUG with my cleric, the bards - especially "battle bards" - typically end up being nothing more than a money/mana sink for me. *ESPECIALLY* in quests where dispelling is common.

This isn't to say that bard builds can't be amazing. I have personally seen some very impressive bards... but I'm sure it was more the player than the build. It's just that the majority of the time, they're an amazing waste of party space. This opinion shouldn't be a surprise to anyone - the bard is the "jack of all trades, master of none" class... so the bard will be of minimal benefit when surrounded by the masters of the trades he dabbles in.

LOL, that one sentence is the reason to take a bard over any other class ... a +5 song cannot be dispelled... A BC or any other magical buff can... thell this to my poor Pally fighting to keep her divine favor up in such quests, while my bard Rosewood just thinks oh, well I still have my songs and can CC most all the mobs Oh btw they have the strongest CC in the game when plp let them use it...

The biggest difference in playing a bard over a cleric or a melee or a caster... is you have so many tools at your finger tips, are a master of none... however knowing this and the limits of any character is what makes a greater playing toon. A bard does excell in two areas over the other classes... buffs and CC. Sure a hard CC spec sorc will have the DC for a spell but so can a bard... then top it off with fascinate and all is turned even. My bard had solo'd vons 1-4 at lvl 10 ... my fighter had done the same at lvl 9... my cleric has never solo'd it because she's so hard heal spec'd - does that invalidate any of those toons? I do not think so.

[Strakeln]

A bard does excell in two areas over the other classes... buffs and CC.

I still say this is not absolute. As you point out in the very next sentence,

Sure a hard CC spec sorc will have the DC for a spell but so can a bard... then top it off with fascinate and all is turned even.

a bard is about even with a CC spec sorc (I'd argue not hard CC spec).

Regarding buffs, yep, they have some good ones, but it's hard to say they excel above all others. In my opinion, the lack of access to resist energy spells keeps them from being able to be the clear heir to the throne. Come mod 6, where resist energy 20 wands and potions are reportedly up for sale, I'll probably change my mind on this and concede that bards are the Kings in the Buff... er, Kings of the Buff.

[Obitus]

I still say this is not absolute. As you point out in the very next sentence,

a bard is about even with a CC spec sorc (I'd argue not hard CC spec).

CC is a very broad category, of which enchantment-school spells are only part. For that reason alone, a CC-specced Sorc will tend to outmatch a CC-specced Bard in your average encounter. In certain situations, though, Fascinate is unbelievably powerful.

Regardless, a Bard can adequately fill the CC role in a team, and bring great buffs along for the party, and/or great melee DPS of his own.

Regarding buffs, yep, they have some good ones, but it's hard to say they excel above all others. In my opinion, the lack of access to resist energy spells keeps them from being able to be the clear heir to the throne. Come mod 6, where resist energy 20 wands and potions are reportedly up for sale, I'll probably change my mind on this and concede that bards are the Kings in the Buff... er, Kings of the Buff.

Resist Energy is a big deal; no question. However, since so many other classes have access to it, who really cares if the Bard doesn't? Hell, in a way I think the devs did Bards a favor by not giving them Resist Energy; spell points are hard enough to come by. There is a point after which a buff is so commonly available that the lack of it on a particular class cannot be referenced as a disadvantage; after all, if the entire point of this argument is that certain party roles are indispensible, then we really should be considering those buffs which are uniquely available to a given class or subset of classes.

As content expands, I think dispels are going to become a bigger and bigger factor -- and at level 15, Bards will be getting Inspire Heroics. So, in Mod 6, a Bard will be able to give his entire party the following, non-dispellable buffs:

+8 attack (+9 if a Warchanter)
+6 damage (+8 if a Warchanter)
+1 Fortitude save
+4 to all saves
+4 Dodge AC
+1 to offensive spell DCs if a Spellsinger

That's some pretty massive buffage. Of particular interest to me is the +4 bonus to all saves. How many people on these forums count Greater Heroism into the saves' calculations for their posted builds? Will it still be fair to include a dispellable buff in saves' calcs as opponent casters become more powerful? Bards make that discussion moot after module 6. Sure, Greater Heroism does more than raise saves and attack, but when the fit hits the shan against casters, what you're really counting on most is the bonus to saves.

There is no doubt that Bards are non-essential party members, but then again that's true of most any other class. The comparison to Sorcerers is just a tad absurd in my mind, because Sorcerers are perhaps the most powerful class in the entire game right now. Shall we talk Fighters? Paladins? Rogues? Rangers? When it comes down to it, there's hardly a quest in the game that absolutely requires any particular class (silly stat runes notwithstanding).

The entire trend of this game (and DnD itself, as levels rise into the mid to late teens) is that casters are king. Bards, being only half-breed casters, are obviously going to feel a bit marginalized. But if I had to choose a melee build to complement a caster-heavy party in the current end game, I'd choose a Warchanter over a Fighter, no question. As you min-max your party makeup for offense, your margin of error also shrinks. Not a whole hell of a lot has to go wrong to kill your average Sorcerer; a guy who can toss a no-save Fascinate or a Heal scroll or a Raise Dead in a pinch is therefore a huge asset.