New ranger enhancements

[rpasell]

+4 to hit is good for str based guys I suppose. Not a huge deal for dex based, but a "nice to have". I guess I'm just underwelmed by it so far. Even if you crit when you use the shot, you are only going to make something mad and then you can't continue to deliver enough dps to take it down. Maybe we are just not seeing the follow on to this one.

Something more like, when standing still and the target is unaware of your presence you have a 90% chance to slay. I.e. you put an arrow through its brain or heart and it dropped dead. If the targets are moving the chance is reduced. If they no you are there (even if they can't get to you right then) the chance is reduced.

I guess the term "sniper" just seems like it should have more "one shot kill" capability than is currently being discussed.

And banish? Maybe I'm using the wrong quest to decide, by my banishing bow seems to get saved against most of the time. I actually stopped using it because of that.

Again, I've been running on Risia and I'm banishing many of the mobs before outright HP killing them. As rangers we have the 1 shot 1 kill available already in Greater Slaying arrows. I don't want to see an easy button Enhancement line, and 90% kill rate on any Enhancement is that. It should be noted from a ranged perspective, in the new explorer area there are a bunch of places a ranged ranger can use to stand and plink away without taking damage.

On the sniper front. There should definintly be a way of for doing an instant kill shot on creatures capable of being criticaled. It certainly would not be any worse than casters who pk/finger of death everything in sight.

See above re:banishing

[D'rin]

You know I totally forgot about slaying arrows. My high lvl dex ranger does not use a bow that often. I should try the slaying arrows more often. I boils down to laziness on my part. I don't like having to manage inventory that much. I'll give it a try.

[rpasell]

You know I totally forgot about slaying arrows. My high lvl dex ranger does not use a bow that often. I should try the slaying arrows more often. I boils down to laziness on my part. I don't like having to manage inventory that much. I'll give it a try.

They are really nice specifically for soloing. Nothing like going into the orchard and soloing 75% off the named mini bosses without taking a scratch.

[redoubt]

When we can buy slaying arrows, I'll go with them being our version of vorpal or pk/FOD/desctruction.

On banishing, I'll guess I'll have to take that bow out for another spin. I was just sick of the elementals in the reaver always saving. What have you been hunting that you are having such good luck with banishing?

Oh the "easy button": A 90% chance at slaying on the first shot is not an easy button unless there is only one mob. Yes, you have a very good chance to drop the first guy while he stands there picking his nose. BUT, once you do all his buddies are gonna come looking for you. Once the mobs (and probably you) start moving your chances to slay would drop. (unlike vorpal, pk, fod, desctruction which can all still one shot kill and all can do so from range.)

[redoubt]

Oh yea, are the arcane archer arrows plan +x arrows? Or can you make +3 of pure good or +4 flaming arrows etc?

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Oh yea, are the arcane archer arrows plan +x arrows? Or can you make +3 of pure good or +4 flaming arrows etc?

Just plain +x arrows. (100% returning tho...)

[penumbra]

I think there is too much emphasis on ranged Rangers having an unfair advantage if their damage output was higher. This argument that fighters should do more damage because their risk is higher i.e. having to go toe to toe is rediculous IMO. A ranger is no different than a fighter in respect that they are both specialists in what they do. Ok granted if a bow could put out as much damage as a fighter with a khopesh then the game would be unbalanced but why can't many shot be a stance like power attack? Talk about an unfair advantage. Fighters, barbs and such get different boosts to make them much more powerfull yet Rangers get squat with the exception of the new enhancements. I don't think having the ability to many shot at will would be over powering. Give it the same negative to hit as power attack thus sacrificing damage for accuracy. Anyway I know I will get flamed for my opinion but after all it is just an opinion.

i agree with you 100%. to many times in games do i see archers get the shaft. ( the pun is intended only if you found it funny )



as for arcane archer returning arrows, for some reason i keep picturing a Ranger with manyshot screaming as all his arrows come flying back....

[Puke]

Again, I've been running on Risia and I'm banishing many of the mobs before outright HP killing them. As rangers we have the 1 shot 1 kill available already in Greater Slaying arrows. I don't want to see an easy button Enhancement line, and 90% kill rate on any Enhancement is that. It should be noted from a ranged perspective, in the new explorer area there are a bunch of places a ranged ranger can use to stand and plink away without taking damage.

See above re:banishing

You have actual experience with the new content and enhancements but I just have to express that I have a hard time buying this. OK, for the Banishing Bow you will probably crit on a 19-20 and every 10-seconds it drops, for one shot only, to a 18-20. That's not too bad but that is for only one shot. The problem is, most things at the higher content tend to save more, from my experience. And bow fighting is about three-times slower than melee. OK, so Manyshot sort of evens this out (though the three shots are all at the same time instead of spaced out between swings and thus you have a better chance to finish something off.) Overall, it sounds OK. But I don't buy you are banishing things left and right.

Now, with a good Banishing Rapier or Shortsword you are in much better luck of having a chance to actually banish because the crit range is steadily better and you get more attacks. For a TWF who has two of those weapons in either combination, the chances are greatly increased. My Ranger has one of each that he dual wields and he sees a lot of blue polygons meaning the monsters save a lot and thus why I find it hard to believe that all of a sudden a bow is banishing things so easily in the 15th and 16th level content. But maybe you are right. Anyway, if someone really wants to banish things I'd say the way to go is TWF Tempest enhancement. The Deepwood enhancement is nice, I suppose, but I don't think anyone has to fear the bow Ranger killing everything before the melees can get there (like what happens in the beginning of PoP when you have a nasty Sorc or two in that run.)

After saying all that, I have rolled a new Elven Ranger who is about 2,000 XP from level six who is designed for the new Deepwood Sniper enhancements. I have hopes that my gut-feeling is wrong on this one.

I think I need to roll another Ranger for the new Tempest Enhancements but I'll never heard the end of it from some of my guildies about how I only play Rangers. lol.

[query]

Okay, I just wanted to do sometyhing Chaucer-esque there that the typical poster could read (trust me, if I started posting Middle English [let alone Olde' English] that would make the vocaulary of Shakesphere to an average reader look like The Cat in the Hat.)


But back to the topic on hand...

{...and please ignore any spelling/grammar errors you find. It's late and you know that that's not the **** point of this post.}

In the Middle European Ages, there was a constant perceived dispute between Archer and Melee Fighters. The Archers would bemoan that they would soften up the defense for the melee fighters to kill and take all the glory, yet be targeted and killed first as the cause of ranged harm/cowardice to really fight the melee enemies their way.


The Melee fighters felt that the archers had it easy firing from a safe distance and had no honor as they hid behind the REAL fighting force, and had no problem expressing their murderous hate on enemy ones with no fear of retribuition from their Lords since they risked their lives with every swing of the enemy's weapon.


So, there is a historical reality to this debate: Should those that sacrifice for distance combat over sheer brawn be considered less important because they potentially damage less yet hit more often?

In reality, Dark Age archers were targeted because both of their serious threat (many arrows shot from a far distance can fell many a charging warrior before they get to the enemy...the Chinese movie "Hero" was accurate what an army would see first were a literal hail of arrows as they advanced,) and their perceived cowardice by non archer fighters who fought "on the battlefield." I'm not even going to go into the history of snipers and what the enemy did to them if caught (let's just say they often had a suicide or ready to die quickly rather than be captured attitude if discovered and no escape was possible but if captured death was the minimum they would always get....see "Enemies at the Gate" for a look at this both in damage and in psycological morale in modern warfare...since this is fantasy and the rules of combat are changed from reality with magic and fun gameplay.)


So copmparing melee vs ranged fighting is again apples to oranges. You can make a good DPS melee fighter that can range fight well, and you can make a ranged fighter that can melee well. But expecting the melee fighters to be as versitile with their strength using bows is as absurd as expecting ranger bowpeople to equal or exceed the dps on a non critical hit situation which they technically may do with and have more crits if set up properly...but the same could be said for melee fighters...


Deepwoods Sniper implements the idea of firing from a place so far away and unseen, the enemy will be dead before they most likely even FIND the shooter. Unfortunately, the DDO mechanic-of once hit, mobs have an unerringly ability to find you even if rehidden and a very very far distance away-partially gimps the concept of the PrC. (How in the world the DDO people are even going to implement Camoflauge or Hiding in Plain Sight with this AI bull is beyond me.) So the idea to the mindset of most players for this class (and many have not ever touched a D&D book game before to understand the concept of drama in fantasy compared to the more response-orintess live action of this game,) is kill them before they touch or really hurt you. This is also a double edged sword for the stubborn [censored] that have to "prove" their concept and NEVER put down their bow. Heck, even archers in Lord of the Rings [book and movie, not MMO] had to pick up a sword. Even gods in human bodies did die, so come on, what makes player "I'm-never-putting-down-my-bow-because-it's-my-principle-forget-my-penalty-and-the swords-can-handle-it" the exempt? It's players like these as much as the uninformed non-ranger players that make it hard for many decent playing rangers to get a group.

Considering the ranger's abilities restricts them to mostly what a rogue or bard can wear without penalty, the idea of heavy AC through armor is not that simple. Neither is the inevitable fact that the dex will eventually surpass most armor's max dex bonus no matter how high it is now (with the exception of dwarven dex rangers [shudder.]) This means by the high end of the Dex ranger's life, they (if they choose to optimize dexterity as AC) will be wearing bracers or some robe that even surpasses the armoring of +7 bracers. At least monks get bonuses in their attacks and armor class to make up the non armor (or rarely lightly armored) state they are in. Rangers get both trees, but it seems that many only focus on the kill count or DPS as done in MMOs before.

D&D, in both paper and DDO isn't simply about your kill or damage count. Killing is all but inevitable (but both book and DDO pacifist builds are out there, both accepting they they may not kill, but others will,) but the goal is to complete the adventure, finish the chapter, complete the quest while finding the most things you can. Since XP is goal oriented in both (besides that thing called "fun,") getting the most XP is the goal, but the table gamer understands that an adventure segment is played once, not everybody gets all XP possible, and bonus XP can be awarded on the fly from just about anything.

In the DDO XP grind, quests have to be repeated over and over, so milking out as much XP as possible while keeping the comfortable zerging of many players is the de facto goal of many. (But the not healing the 1200 HP damaging but taking 500/600 HP damage does also happen, but I digress.) People want to get the "important" (is there an extra chest for the optionals) stuff and extra XP is sacrificed for speed running the quests to get hard and elite XP, loot (not even called treasure any more, sad,) and favor a lot. (Oh, of course when some are close to ranking or leveling, then the optional question may come up.)


And yet, there are others who build tactical fighters over raw THW damaging fighters/barbarians. Rogues who understand their damages come from the special abilites of their class coupled with the specialty weapons if not straight HP damage. Wizards who cast more than (and [gasp] sometimes do not take) PK, WoF [yes it's Wall of Fire NOT Firewall or FW] SS, Haste, Blur, Resistances to energy and/or MM/Force Missile and still find groups. Sorcerers who do not carry every other wand/scroll of spell they do not have or are not the "glass cannon"/nuker. Barbarians with decent AC who are not dwarves. Warforged who are bards clerics and sorcerers even with the "gimped" scores. Oh yeah, and WF wizards who have MC'ed 2 other levels or more and can still play the Reaver Raids without FoD or the "disco balls."

(I loved hearing when it first came out that it was "impossible" without them and the healing would be too high since you don't have healer's friend [duhh, self healing, and heal works about the same on all of us and many squishy even had HP's needing that level of spell by then]...yet those Otto's "Spheres of Dancing" seem to be not containing all those eles and the FoD seems on par with my PK with no metas, just a technical higher rate of success [yes banishing sucks with eles, period,] and I have healed myself alot and the divine healers have healed me too when I'm in a jam without multiple castings or "wasted" mana.)


So perception vs reality is going to be an eternal debate on all things, including ths topic. Some overglorify it, some unjustly condemn it on one side or the other. The bottom line "facts" are:

• What works for you may not work for others and vice versa.
• One playing style does not fit all no matter what the quest/raid.
• People have different goals in DDO, but all want to have fun and finish the quests; while easier or more difficult, no build is "impossible" to play.
• New things are just that-new. Unknown things often have mistakes in the beginning, but over time, people learn to refine them until they work well, or they start on a different route. Any new feature in DDO is this. Don't abandon something because it is appearing "overpowered" or "gimped/nerfed." In time, these things will be addressed. This however does not excuse the time of delays for promised "simple" or "priority" updates/fixes. Be patient, but don't be afraid to speak up and give a soft but prodding kick in the pants to get them going [cough cough monks cough cough in April cough cough they really think so this time cough cough cough.]
• Never be afraid to try something out. One person's "batman" is another person's "one trick pony that the enemy learned how to stop the trick." Just because somebody says and posts something is awesome/terrible doesn't necesarily mean it is for you. So, take time to try new experimental builds out. That's the idea of experiment-trial and error, Don't make a conclusion after a brief period and say that is it forevermore. Which remids me....
• The only constant is change. You'll find this is oh so very true in DDO. Yesterday's fighter is replaced by Today's caster which will be replaced by Tomorrow's "uber" MC mix...which was the batman concept of the Beginning....What once worked may not work, or may work again. Rangers had little to no support shown, now they do. Once Paladins ruled the lands with Drow, now mixing classes seems the way to adapt to the "not powerful enough" abilities/spells. As mentioned in earlier posts/threads and just now, once meleers were the only choice perceived, now casters are. It's all just perception. (My original 28-point "gimped" MC rogue/wizard still can play and has saved the butts of oh so many "power gamers" and has too fallen victim to mobs above a certin number many times no matter what the concentrtion/metamagic feat/weapon/item....which leads me to....
• We all have our PC build strengths and weaknesses. Many players just do no learn to use them all beyond a few choices. Comdemning what you do not like (or sometimes even know) is as wise as the person who has learned "enough" and knows "everything"...normally around the ages of 19-22 years of age (in reality here folks not in game.) Most of us over 30 people may now do that little smile when they hear it from their next generation of young to legal adult.

So, yes, I like to lurk, then strike with my +5 knowledge brain of verbosity (those saving just tune out and consider the user boring and rambling,) But I do like to thoroughly deconstruct a oft mentioned topic and hope to bring a new view or different option to the debate table. May I have at least partially succeed here......