A question about turning undead

[Yaga_Nub]

I recall that thread. They explicitly stated that they pumped up CR well beyond the level of the party that is intended to do the quest. Pumped up CR IS pumped up HD.

No, E said that they only change the HD of the mobs for hard and elite. He specifically said that they only pump up the HP of the mobs across the board to keep with things like turning and spells that affect a certain number of HD.

[Arianrhod]

I think part of the disincentive for turning undead (or speccing to do so) comes when characters hit the mid levels & run the Delera's Tomb series. There, many players for the first time discover to their chagrin that turned wraiths sink into the floor & become unkillable, thus forcing the party to stand around waiting for them to become unturned so they can get the doors to unlock & finish the quest. It's a bit like the disincentives for commanding undead & charming monsters. It would help if charms & turns were dismissable at will like barbarian rage. Then people would be more willing to try turning undead, and would get more of a sense that it's moderately useful, even though it doesn't generally blow things up after third level or so.

[Yaga_Nub]

I think part of the disincentive for turning undead (or speccing to do so) comes when characters hit the mid levels & run the Delera's Tomb series. There, many players for the first time discover to their chagrin that turned wraiths sink into the floor & become unkillable, thus forcing the party to stand around waiting for them to become unturned so they can get the doors to unlock & finish the quest. It's a bit like the disincentives for commanding undead & charming monsters. It would help if charms & turns were dismissable at will like barbarian rage. Then people would be more willing to try turning undead, and would get more of a sense that it's moderately useful, even though it doesn't generally blow things up after third level or so.

Wraiths do that when feared? I'm soooooo going to grief some pugs now!

[Josh]

1) Yep, we follow the book charts.

2) CR is not the same as HD; for undead in particular, HD is frequently much greater than CR.
Rolling a 20 on your turning check with a level 4 cleric lets you hit undead up to 8HD; an elite ghast is 12HD...

3) Some undead have turn resistance, which makes them effectively have a couple more HD for purposes of resisting turns (but not for HD-limited spells).

4) That does mean that turning is, in general, really hard. On high-end content, you generally aren't going to be destroying anything, and even forcing many high-end undead to flee is going to be tough if your character isn't designed around being really good at turning.

And there is the inherent flaw in the D20 turning system. I've been ****ed about that for years.

[MrCow]

Wraiths do that when feared? I'm soooooo going to grief some pugs now!

I have seen a couple of times where a cleric turned a wraith in the first part of Delera's Tomb and it went zooming through the barred gates never to return. Good thing those lockdown rooms are on a timer.

[Ustice]

1) Yep, we follow the book charts.

2) CR is not the same as HD; for undead in particular, HD is frequently much greater than CR.
Rolling a 20 on your turning check with a level 4 cleric lets you hit undead up to 8HD; an elite ghast is 12HD...

3) Some undead have turn resistance, which makes them effectively have a couple more HD for purposes of resisting turns (but not for HD-limited spells).

4) That does mean that turning is, in general, really hard. On high-end content, you generally aren't going to be destroying anything, and even forcing many high-end undead to flee is going to be tough if your character isn't designed around being really good at turning.

Even on elite, without being completely specced for it, you should have at least a 25% chance. That currently isn't the case.

[MrCow]

Even on elite, without being completely specced for it, you should have at least a 25% chance.

*Scratches his head*

Why should we have at least a 25% chance to turn something?

[Yaga_Nub]

*Scratches his head*

Why should we have at least a 25% chance to turn something?

You're right! We should have a 50% chance!

[MysticTheurge]

Even on elite, without being completely specced for it, you should have at least a 25% chance.

I'm with MrCow. What's your logic here?

[death_smurf]

How are you adding +12 to turning with just enhancements and gear?

also a +1 from the feat improved turning. my lev is 26 on a roll of 11 or higher. if u would like to see sceen shots id be happy to post em.

[Galapas]

also a +1 from the feat improved turning. my lev is 26 on a roll of 11 or higher. if u would like to see sceen shots id be happy to post em.

First, you shouldn't count the feat. If we add in spellcasting feats like maximize and empower, the disparity is worse.
Second, don't count the die roll. A 24th level cleric would get a die roll too. Compare apples to apples, not oranges.

[Galapas]

No, E said that they only change the HD of the mobs for hard and elite. He specifically said that they only pump up the HP of the mobs across the board to keep with things like turning and spells that affect a certain number of HD.

Go into a dungeon with undead on normal. Find the toughest undead creature. Look at its CR. it is supposed to be the same as the adventure level. It will probably be 1.5 to 1.75 times the adventure level. They DO pump up the CR. Their explanation claimed they did not pump up HD with respect to CR, but that doesn't matter since they are pumping up CR.

Of course, on hard and elite, they actually do pump up the HD beyond what would be expected from the reported CR.

For most combat abilities, the increase in HD is no problem, for some specific mechanics, it is a brutal handicap. Turning and level limited spells are screwed because of it.

[MysticTheurge]

Find the toughest undead creature. Look at its CR. it is supposed to be the same as the adventure level.

Why?

In my D&D campaigns I regularly send my PCs against creatures with a CR higher than their level.

I'd do it even more often if they had 32-point builds and uber-lewtz.

[parvo]

I have seen a couple of times where a cleric turned a wraith in the first part of Delera's Tomb and it went zooming through the barred gates never to return. Good thing those lockdown rooms are on a timer.

Last time I turned a Wraith it stopped dead in it's tracks and couldn't go incorporeal. That could have been a bug, but I'm hoping it was changed.

[parvo]

Why?

In my D&D campaigns I regularly send my PCs against creatures with a CR higher than their level.

I'd do it even more often if they had 32-point builds and uber-lewtz.

Agreed. As if Clerics needed to be more powerful. We're already getting a spell buff that acts like double Sacred.

[death_smurf]

First, you shouldn't count the feat. If we add in spellcasting feats like maximize and empower, the disparity is worse.
Second, don't count the die roll. A 24th level cleric would get a die roll too. Compare apples to apples, not oranges.

curious why wouldnt i include everything that that effects my level for turning purposes when based on it i cant turn at a level below 23 on a roll of a 1? that makes no sense what so ever. the fact is even on my worst roll possible i am turning 9 levels above my current character level! By the time i get to 24th level(if) more than likely the minimum i could get on the roll would be +3 due to my charisma +. metamagics dont factor into this in any way since they dont affect turns and this is what the discussion was about.

[Galapas]

Why?

In my D&D campaigns I regularly send my PCs against creatures with a CR higher than their level.

I'd do it even more often if they had 32-point builds and uber-lewtz.

That is the whole point!

Players are dramatically overpowered for their level, so the encounters have their CR pumped up, but with regard to turning, players are relatively less overpowered.

[MysticTheurge]

...but with regard to turning, players are relatively less overpowered.

And they're working to fix that. That's why we got turning related enhancements and "sacred," and turning related raid loot and turning related special collectible items and a new turning related spell.

[death_smurf]

clerics are only underpowered for turning if they dont build and spec for it. if a wiz has a 16 int his pk or hold monster spell will be far less affective than a wizard with a 34 int and focuses in those schools. In the same way a str based fighter who has a 20 str is far less effective in dealing damage than a fighter who has a 32 str or higher.

If your cleric has a 14 charisma why would he be anywhere near as effective as a cleric with 32 charisma? he isnt and he wont be. the higher your charisma the better your effective level for turn will be based on the chart and +11 a 32 charisma cleric gets to his roll. that means the minimum the cleric can turn at is his level however on a roll of 10 or higher he will be turning 4 levels higher than his current level before gear spells and enhancements are factored in.

as of next mod, when my cleric hits level 16 the minimum the roll will net me will be +1 to turn level even on a roll of a 1 due to a +12 charisma modifer. and on rolls of 10 or higher, i will hit my max turn level based on gear spells enhancements feats etc of level 30 for turn purposes. the minimum level i will be able to turn at at that point will be lev 27. this is not underpowered at all. does it mean i will destroy every undead i come across? not at all very few actually, however almost every undead i encouter will be cowered.

If they added greater turns in some fashion, all those cowered undead would be destroyed. at which time the argument would swing and everyone would be saying clerics are far to overpowered they can destroy groups of undead 8 at a time with just one use of greater turn undead. Thats when we will see blanket immunities to turning etc.

a true turning cleric in ddo is not the same as a healing cleric at all. many things are sacrificed to boost the abilty to turn effectively. This type of cleric is not for everyone, however it can be extremely fun to play. That said u win... all mobs need to be nerfed until there is no challenge in the game at all

[Yaga_Nub]

Go into a dungeon with undead on normal. Find the toughest undead creature. Look at its CR. it is supposed to be the same as the adventure level. It will probably be 1.5 to 1.75 times the adventure level. They DO pump up the CR. Their explanation claimed they did not pump up HD with respect to CR, but that doesn't matter since they are pumping up CR.

Of course, on hard and elite, they actually do pump up the HD beyond what would be expected from the reported CR.

For most combat abilities, the increase in HD is no problem, for some specific mechanics, it is a brutal handicap. Turning and level limited spells are screwed because of it.

Just because the quest's adventure level is X does NOT mean the mobs CR should = X.

Where did that rule come from?