A question about turning undead

[Yaga_Nub]

I know there are a number of threads out there and I'm just really to lazy to look for them to see if there is already an answer for this.

I started a cleric (4th level 21 wis 14 cha) and I was playing around with turn undead.

In the combat log, something like this shows up (I'll get online when I get home and post some actually text for accuracy):

You roll to see your affect on undead. You roll a 20 and are able to affect up to 8 Hit Dice creatures.
You roll to see the number of undead you can affect. You roll a 10 and affect up to 12 hit dice worth of creatures.
You cast fear on undead.

(again that's just a simulation, not actual text and I'll get the exact wording up tonight)

I understand that all of that comes from the Turn rules for DnD.

Now from the online SRD:

Turning Check

The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.

Turning Damage

If your roll on Table: Turning Undead is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn.

If your Charisma score is average or low, it’s possible to roll fewer Hit Dice of undead turned than indicated on Table: Turning Undead.

Okay I understand all of that as well.

Here's my question:

Does DDO follow the same table as given in the rules book or the online SRD?

As shown on the online SRD:

Table: Turning Undead Turning Check
Result Most Powerful Undead Affected
(Maximum Hit Dice)
0 or lower Cleric’s level -4
1—3 Cleric’s level -3
4—6 Cleric’s level -2
7—9 Cleric’s level -1
10—12 Cleric’s level
13—15 Cleric’s level +1
16—18 Cleric’s level +2
19—21 Cleric’s level +3
22 or higher Cleric’s level +4

At one time I rolled a 20 for the Turning Checking and then rolled a 17 for number of hit dice to affect. I was facing 2 CR 5 ghouls (or maybe ghasts) and there was nothing in the log and the ghouls kept attacking. Shouldn't they have been feared?

After I saw this, I started watching the logs closer and it actually happened many times. I know that everyone says that turning is broken but is this what they are taking about or is it something different?

[stockwizard5]

Does DDO follow the same table as given in the rules book or the online SRD?

Yes

I know that everyone says that turning is broken but is this what they are taking about or is it something different?

The Hit Dice of undead are relatively high (there are a couple of forum studies for details) which makes destroying them unlikely and turning any high level content impossible (except for some rare specific cases with very dedicated builds).

So if all this math and CR/HD stuff is basically correct then what we have is:

Level of Cleric (fully twinked Feat, Gear, CHA, Enhancements) to Destroy Average Undead of CR:

CR 0 = Cleric 5
CR 1 = Cleric 7
CR 2 = Cleric 9
CR 3 = Cleric 11
CR 4 = Cleric 14

Level of Cleric (fully twinked) to Destroy Worst Case Undead of CR:

CR 0 = Cleric 5
CR 1 = Cleric 10
CR 2 = Cleric 15 (estimated)

I think planning on destroying undead is useless ... now cowering them is reasonable.

[Dexxaan]

Dude you have admitted to laziness....forget trying to turn stuff. In the unlikely event you do succeed, it just makes people have to
chase down the mobs anyway. And it seems my Madstone boots are going to be taking mileage wear if the new perma-dmg rules go into effect!

[MrCow]

I was facing 2 CR 5 ghouls (or maybe ghasts) and there was nothing in the log and the ghouls kept attacking. Shouldn't they have been feared?

A couple of things on turn undead:

• CR does not equal HD, especially on undead like skeletons and zombies where they often have 2 HD per CR.
• DDO scales HD on elite. That elite ghoul you faced has about 8 HD or so (don't quote me on the number, it is an estimation).
• Some monsters, like ghouls, have turn resistance. This is added to the HD the undead has for making sure they don't get turned. Ghouls have a turn resistance of +2.

[Hafeal]

Players have reported succes of turning even at the highest levels of the game. As for being feared or destroyed, feared can be just as good - ask any fighter wearing fearsome armor.

With a 14 CHA, though, it is unlikely you will have success beyond normal for very long.

At higher levels you need a high CHA and take the enhancements available.

My capped cleric doesn't turn very well - but he is not built for it. I am currently building a human cleric and seen differences even at low levels.

[DaveyCrockett]

PM Sent

[DeadlyGazebo]

I know there are a number of threads out there and I'm just really to lazy to look for them to see if there is already an answer for this.

I started a cleric (4th level 21 wis 14 cha) and I was playing around with turn undead.

In the combat log, something like this shows up (I'll get online when I get home and post some actually text for accuracy):

You roll to see your affect on undead. You roll a 20 and are able to affect up to 8 Hit Dice creatures.
You roll to see the number of undead you can affect. You roll a 10 and affect up to 12 hit dice worth of creatures.
You cast fear on undead.

(again that's just a simulation, not actual text and I'll get the exact wording up tonight)

I understand that all of that comes from the Turn rules for DnD.

Now from the online SRD:

Turning Check

The first thing you do is roll a turning check to see how powerful an undead creature you can turn. This is a Charisma check (1d20 + your Charisma modifier). Table: Turning Undead gives you the Hit Dice of the most powerful undead you can affect, relative to your level. On a given turning attempt, you can turn no undead creature whose Hit Dice exceed the result on this table.

Turning Damage

If your roll on Table: Turning Undead is high enough to let you turn at least some of the undead within 60 feet, roll 2d6 + your cleric level + your Charisma modifier for turning damage. That’s how many total Hit Dice of undead you can turn.

If your Charisma score is average or low, it’s possible to roll fewer Hit Dice of undead turned than indicated on Table: Turning Undead.

Okay I understand all of that as well.

Here's my question:

Does DDO follow the same table as given in the rules book or the online SRD?

As shown on the online SRD:

Table: Turning Undead Turning Check
Result Most Powerful Undead Affected
(Maximum Hit Dice)
0 or lower Cleric’s level -4
1—3 Cleric’s level -3
4—6 Cleric’s level -2
7—9 Cleric’s level -1
10—12 Cleric’s level
13—15 Cleric’s level +1
16—18 Cleric’s level +2
19—21 Cleric’s level +3
22 or higher Cleric’s level +4

At one time I rolled a 20 for the Turning Checking and then rolled a 17 for number of hit dice to affect. I was facing 2 CR 5 ghouls (or maybe ghasts) and there was nothing in the log and the ghouls kept attacking. Shouldn't they have been feared?

After I saw this, I started watching the logs closer and it actually happened many times. I know that everyone says that turning is broken but is this what they are taking about or is it something different?

1) Yep, we follow the book charts.

2) CR is not the same as HD; for undead in particular, HD is frequently much greater than CR.
Rolling a 20 on your turning check with a level 4 cleric lets you hit undead up to 8HD; an elite ghast is 12HD...

3) Some undead have turn resistance, which makes them effectively have a couple more HD for purposes of resisting turns (but not for HD-limited spells).

4) That does mean that turning is, in general, really hard. On high-end content, you generally aren't going to be destroying anything, and even forcing many high-end undead to flee is going to be tough if your character isn't designed around being really good at turning.

[MrCow]

an elite ghast is 12HD...

*Looks cautiously to the left*

*Looks cautiously to the right*

*Pilfers the HD information by stashing it in a database*

*Creeps back into the shadows*

On a side note, he mentioned the ghoul/ghast was CR 5, so it was either a hard ghast or an elite ghoul. Either way, you are looking to need a HD turn of about 10 or higher.

[Fahkrin]

So basically, this means that we can't turn undead. The HD are jacked much higher in DDO than in PnP, so Turn Undead should be renamed Divine Vitality.

[Laith]

So basically, this means that we can't turn undead. The HD are jacked much higher in DDO than in PnP, so Turn Undead should be renamed Divine Vitality.

no. In PnP, undead HD are high for their CR. They get even HIGHER when you go and improve their CR (ie. hard/elite).

skeletons, for example, follow this table

Hit Dice      Challenge Rating 
1/2                 1/6 
1                   1/3 
2-3                 1 
4-5                 2 
6-7                 3 
8-9                 4 
10-11               5 
12-14               6 
15-17               7 
18-20               8

add to that that undead have d12 HD, and you begin to realize that undead are just big stupid bags of HD/HP.

Thing is though, in PnP skeletons aren't supposed to be able to exist above 20HD. You're stuck making a more powerful form of undead at that point. If there is any deviation from PnP: this is it.

In a sense, we ARE getting higher HD skeletons (CR 18 or so already i think)... but they're just taking the place of more powerful undead with fewer HD, but more turning resistance most likely.

I'm confident that the HD : CR ratio is being kept fairly well.

[Spookydodger]

4) That does mean that turning is, in general, really hard. On high-end content, you generally aren't going to be destroying anything, and even forcing many high-end undead to flee is going to be tough if your character isn't designed around being really good at turning.

The Reaver pre-raid is a good example of this. Those undead skeletal giants before each dragon's portal are unaffected by a normal-charisma, no real-real-enhancement-for-turning cleric. Throw on a set of those gloves of eternity(?) and a sacred item, and they're running for the hills. Very handy if your mage isn't well prepared for the flood of damage from his/her area damage

[MysticTheurge]

A bunch of stuff

What MrCow said.

Welcome to the ranks.

[Galapas]

Monsters have HD pumped up in response to player combat abilities (melee and spell). Ignoring maximize and empower feats, (which are in PnP), spellcasters can still do more damage in DDO from enhancements and items that don't exist in PnP. The top level enhancement can add 40% damage, and a superior item can add 50% damage. Combined with the weighted damage dice (d6 is really 3+d3), players can do about 166% damage more in DDO than they would with similar spells in PnP. That is equivalent to a 12th level wizard getting an extra 20 levels aded on to calculate damage.

A cleric trying to turn undead can, at most, add 3 levels to his mechanic for calculating his turns from enhancements, and a little more from sacred items. If they wanted to scale turning like they did spell damage, a cleric should be able to more than double his effective level with enhancements and items, with a chance for "critical turns" that effectively double his level again. I think that would be going too far, but I also think they should pump up the current turning enhancements a bit - maybe +2, +3 and +4 instead of +1, +1, +1.

[MysticTheurge]

Monsters have HD pumped up in response to player combat abilities (melee and spell).

No. This is not true.

HP yes. HD no.

[death_smurf]

Monsters have HD pumped up in response to player combat abilities (melee and spell). Ignoring maximize and empower feats, (which are in PnP), spellcasters can still do more damage in DDO from enhancements and items that don't exist in PnP. The top level enhancement can add 40% damage, and a superior item can add 50% damage. Combined with the weighted damage dice (d6 is really 3+d3), players can do about 166% damage more in DDO than they would with similar spells in PnP. That is equivalent to a 12th level wizard getting an extra 20 levels aded on to calculate damage.

A cleric trying to turn undead can, at most, add 3 levels to his mechanic for calculating his turns from enhancements, and a little more from sacred items. If they wanted to scale turning like they did spell damage, a cleric should be able to more than double his effective level with enhancements and items, with a chance for "critical turns" that effectively double his level again. I think that would be going too far, but I also think they should pump up the current turning enhancements a bit - maybe +2, +3 and +4 instead of +1, +1, +1.

not true by any means my average turn is as a lev 24 cleric and my high is as a 26th level cleric for turning purposes. so i add 12 levels to my cleric level for the purpose of turns.

[Galapas]

No. This is not true.

HP yes. HD no.

No, they add HD.

You may think that they don't because they don't pump up HD after determining CR, but they pump up the CR, which determines HD. In PnP, an appropriate encounter would be one creature with a CR equal to the party's level. In DDO, you often fight multiple creatures with CR higher than your level. You can do this because most combat abilities are inflated dramatically.

[Yaga_Nub]

No. This is not true.

HP yes. HD no.

MT is correct. In another thread that I believe was wiped in the forum purge, I asked how mobs in DDO were given HP.

DeadlyG posted that the HD stay the same as in PnP for the most part. This was done so that spells didn't have to be changed from the PnP spell. Each mob was just given bonus HP.

To use Laith's chart as an example a CR 3 Skeleton should have 6-7 HD. So in DDO they would have 6-7 HD +XXX HP. The the HD and bonus HP are adjusted for hard and elite quests.

[Galapas]

not true by any means my average turn is as a lev 24 cleric and my high is as a 26th level cleric for turning purposes. so i add 12 levels to my cleric level for the purpose of turns.

How are you adding +12 to turning with just enhancements and gear?

[Galapas]

MT is correct. In another thread that I believe was wiped in the forum purge, I asked how mobs in DDO were given HP.

DeadlyG posted that the HD stay the same as in PnP for the most part. This was done so that spells didn't have to be changed from the PnP spell. Each mob was just given bonus HP.

To use Laith's chart as an example a CR 3 Skeleton should have 6-7 HD. So in DDO they would have 6-7 HD +XXX HP. The the HD and bonus HP are adjusted for hard and elite quests.

I recall that thread. They explicitly stated that they pumped up CR well beyond the level of the party that is intended to do the quest. Pumped up CR IS pumped up HD.

[parvo]

Contrary to popular belief, turning works well in DDO. Most players believe if they don't blast the Undead to bits, it hasn't done anything. Due to the imbalance of the game, that is often reality. Actual turning of undead can be problematic because it takes longer to chase the running mob down. Most of the undead aren't going to get more than one attack off before they die to some other means. Add to those facts there is a horrible "no roll for attack " targeting bug when a mob is running away from your melee and you have a problem. However, the actual mechanics of turning work just fine. If you're willing to spend a feat on improved turning, go with a high charisma and use a Sacred item, you can turn and sometimes destroy Undead in quests that are at or near your priests level.