Tempest Enhancement Updates

[MysticRhythms]

really where twf is beaten on by thf is in cases with non bypassed DR... then thf gets the biggest bang for the buck straight out.

Aesop

Well, it's also beaten out by the whole Strength x 1.5 rule and the x2 rule for Power Attack too. When a THF hits with his main swing, he's going to get his full Strength bonus and Power Attack bonus. The TWF is goign to have to hit with his off hand just to get that 0.5 that he "should have gotten" when his primary hit. And then, of course, TWF's get boned by the Power Attack rules.

And of course you have to keep taking feats just for TWF to "keep up."

[Aesop]

Well, it's also beaten out by the whole Strength x 1.5 rule and the x2 rule for Power Attack too. When a THF hits with his main swing, he's going to get his full Strength bonus and Power Attack bonus. The TWF is goign to have to hit with his off hand just to get that 0.5 that he "should have gotten" when his primary hit. And then, of course, TWF's get boned by the Power Attack rules.

And of course you have to keep taking feats just for TWF to "keep up."

yeah it definately is very feat intensive and should probably just have been a single feat that scales with BaB they really tried to overbalance it a bit too much... There are however definately some advantages to twf especially when special weapon effects are brout into the mix.

Aesop

[MysticRhythms]

There are however definately some advantages to twf especially when special weapon effects are brout into the mix.

It's truly golden for Rogues because they:

-will likely meet the Dexterity requirement without sacrificing other class abilities,
-gain a damage benefit that doesn't rely on anything but taking more levels of Rogue,
-don't have that many combat feats to choose from anyway because of their reduced BaB.

[Queleri]

I don't think you get the point. That 10% attack speed will mean a LOT more attacks over time. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon. Also, the enhancement also grants +2 AC to armor class while TWF which no one can turn down. There was wailing and gnashing of teeth when Paladins LOST +1 to their AC from one of their enhancements or feats.

What MORE do you want???

Not only that but if you add in the Oversized TWF feat as well so that you can use regular sized weapons in the off-hand your DPS will also see a nice boost, when coupled with the AC boost, and say something like haste this should be a very nice combo. I definately plan on taking it myself.

[Kerr]

Not only that but if you add in the Oversized TWF feat as well so that you can use regular sized weapons in the off-hand your DPS will also see a nice boost, when coupled with the AC boost, and say something like haste this should be a very nice combo. I definately plan on taking it myself.

That's the Feat I'm aiming for! My main weapon set will become:

+5 Flaming Burst Longsword and +3 Adamantine Holy Longsword of Backstabbing 5

[maddong]

If you take oversized your feats are pretty much set:
1dodge
3mobility
6spring attack
9improved crit pierce or slash
12oversized
15superior twf

Not much to play around with unless you add in fighter levels.

I think I'd rather have stunning blow than oversized.

[Queleri]

If you take oversized your feats are pretty much set:
1dodge
3mobility
6spring attack
9improved crit pierce or slash
12oversized
15superior twf

Not much to play around with unless you add in fighter levels.

I think I'd rather have stunning blow than oversized.

I have thrown in some Fighter so for me I don't see it as a big deal. And has anyone said that STWF won't be a give me for Ranger's like the other TWF feats?

[Kerr]

I have thrown in some Fighter so for me I don't see it as a big deal. And has anyone said that STWF won't be a give me for Ranger's like the other TWF feats?

So far, that's correct. I'm still fighting it though. Though honestly, I'm seeing it more as a compromise. They offered STWF and oversized, you could go dex based and pick up one, or strength and pick up the other. I do think the natural progression of TWF feats makes sense that Rangers should get it, or it should be rolled into TWF either way, but I haven't seen them budge on the issue yet.

[Taojeff]

Well, it's also beaten out by the whole Strength x 1.5 rule and the x2 rule for Power Attack too. When a THF hits with his main swing, he's going to get his full Strength bonus and Power Attack bonus. The TWF is goign to have to hit with his off hand just to get that 0.5 that he "should have gotten" when his primary hit. And then, of course, TWF's get boned by the Power Attack rules.

And of course you have to keep taking feats just for TWF to "keep up."

I disagree, there are several ways that a twf can better.

1. When a ranger is attacking is favored enemy, especially if he has taken damage enhancements.
2. If he is using weapons that have a special chance to kill (banisher, smiter, vorpal, disruptor)
3. You can use a paralyzer in your offhand and a damager in your main hand.
4. Using greater banes or anything that does 3d6 or more extra a swing. (I typically use greater banes).

[Yshkabibble]

Two weapon Defense: +1 AC
Parrying Weapon in 1 hand: +1 AC (and +1 saves)
Tempest enhancement: +2 AC
Shield spell or clicki: +4 AC

Net is +7 to ac which exactly what you would get if you were using a +5 heavy shield. So now my TWF Ranger who also has a level of Wizzy can fight with 2 weapons and achieve the same or better AC as someone using a +5 heavy shield. In addition I pick up a 10% attack boost. It may not be great for everyone but I'll take it.

[GramercyRiff]

I disagree, there are several ways that a twf can better.

1. When a ranger is attacking is favored enemy, especially if he has taken damage enhancements.
2. If he is using weapons that have a special chance to kill (banisher, smiter, vorpal, disruptor)
3. You can use a paralyzer in your offhand and a damager in your main hand.
4. Using greater banes or anything that does 3d6 or more extra a swing. (I typically use greater banes).

MR is talking about PnP I believe. Two handers are the undisputed champs of damage vs. any other style. Inherently, two handers deal more damage, and that damage comes at little cost. Add in Frenzied Berserker (4 for 1 PA) and the gap becomes ridiculous. Smiters and vorpals are terrible weapon enhancements in PnP, and I don't think banishers exist, but I could be wrong there. If they did, like vorpals, the cost to enhance the weapon wouldn't justify applying it to any weapon. Disruptors are meh. Never seen a greater bane in PnP, but the banes aren't normally worth the enhancement either, unless you fight a certain creature type extremely often. Remember, you can carry a lot of weapons, but there is cost tied to getting them out of the bag of holding and equipping them in PnP.

In DDO, the gap is more narrow, but two handers deal more damage. However, along with what you posted (the 4 weapons you listed won't deal more damage though of course), as well as Deathnip, TWF being much faster, and two hander's 5th attack being so **** slow, TWF might come out ahead in mod 6. It would be a sad day imo because it'd be mostly due to gear.