Moving on from Monks and Druids...

[Scarecrow]

More on point, I think lots of the ideas in this thread are really cool adn would make a great release. Code up 5 or 6 of these alternative classes under a disclaimer that they *will* be balanced under next mod or 2, and wow ... everybody will be rerolling from lvl 1 and doin' it all over again.

Awesome Pellegro. This is exactly why I started this thread. Trying some of these out would be a blast.

[Pellegro]

The new tech needed for Monks (more in-depth unarmed attacks, longer/faster attack chains) is significantly simpler than the new tech needed for Druids (shapechanging).

I dunno. I mean, I don't know either way, but I'm not sure why making all the combat models for every race for Monk would be any different than just making all the combat models for every animal that Druids turn in to.

Your statement is made with an air of truth that is not so obvious to me.

[MysticTheurge]

The key word in your sentence here is "think." But in all honesty, you know about is much as the rest of us on the subject, which is almost nothing.

Oh, yeah, well that's for sure.

Also, it bothers me some what that so much of this thread has been about arguing semantics. When it comes down to it, we just need and want new classes. That's what it's really about. Bringing the variety that is so important to D&D into DDO.

This is an inevitable problem with good ideas. Without controversy you tend not to have a lot of discussion, and when your idea is just plain good (i.e. "We need more classes!") there's not a lot for people to talk about unless they talk about other tangentially related things.

I dunno. I mean, I don't know either way, but I'm not sure why making all the combat models for every race for Monk would be any different than just making all the combat models for every animal that Druids turn in to.

Well, there's additional rules to be discussed and evaluated (Shapeshifting is one of the most complicated things in D&D and has gone through several revisions even during the 3.5 era).

In addition, there are some fairly involved UI issues to be worked out. Like how to you implement the special attacks that you get while polymorphed/shapeshifted? Is it a feat that you can then just drag to the hotbar? Is there a new window?

Plus, and Codog touched on this briefly before, another of the Druid's major abilities is as summoner/pet-master (so to speak). Where clerics have the Cure spells auto-prepped, Druids have Summon Nature's Ally. Plus they get an animal companion. With the current system, where pets are fairly gimped, that'd be a major facet of the class that would need addressing.

Monks have some straight-forward animation to be done, druids have a lot of fairly complex issues. At least it seems to me.

[Hendrik]

The key word in your sentence here is "think." But in all honesty, you know about is much as the rest of us on the subject, which is almost nothing.

What MT 'thinks' is sometimes better then some peoples 'facts'.



Pretty safe to assume there are going to be some major hurdles to get over getting these two classes in and keep them true to form.

I have faith and patience...

[Pellegro]

Well, there's additional rules to be discussed and evaluated (Shapeshifting is one of the most complicated things in D&D and has gone through several revisions even during the 3.5 era).

In addition, there are some fairly involved UI issues to be worked out. Like how to you implement the special attacks that you get while polymorphed/shapeshifted? Is it a feat that you can then just drag to the hotbar? Is there a new window?

Plus, and Codog touched on this briefly before, another of the Druid's major abilities is as summoner/pet-master (so to speak). Where clerics have the Cure spells auto-prepped, Druids have Summon Nature's Ally. Plus they get an animal companion. With the current system, where pets are fairly gimped, that'd be a major facet of the class that would need addressing.

Monks have some straight-forward animation to be done, druids have a lot of fairly complex issues. At least it seems to me.

I don't know the rules too well, so I'll trust you on that one. What I had imagined was that you hit the shapeshift button, then your various attacks (on your hotbar) light up, like teh difference between having SP and not with spells. So I guess it would work like any active feat or enhancement (or other special attacks). Out of curiousity - what all is involved? I figured you polymorph into a bear, and then have maybe a few special attacks like trip or whatever, but I really don't know ....

As for summons, I recall Codog's post. It is an issue. The summoning AI is less than spectacular. That said, they have *something* so I'm not sure why it would be a deal breaker. Just give druids the ability to summon the various things they're allowed to - like clerics, arcanes, and rangers can do now.

Lastly, the animal companion is pretty easy to address. Do the same thing that they did for ranger companions.

Again, I really don't know the rules so I have no reason to doubt that it woudl be difficult. But the point was difficult of druids versus monks, and monks have lots of their own goodies, right? Flurry of blows, those dodge arrow feats or wahtever, speed .... Hehe, when I played D&D, if you got high enough lvl as a monk you got some insta-death attack that was pretty sweet (and game breaking).

Plus, you have to make all the equipment to help the monk out .. the bracers and boots and all that other good stuff that monks expect to have to supplant their unarmed combat. Most of the non-metal goodies are already in game (except maybe like swords and such ... we don't seem to have many wooden swords do we?)

Regardless, I don't fault them either way. I'm sure they have good reasons and they're probably linked to summons and the other issues you noted.

Happy holidays!

[Obitus]

The reasons seems pretty straight forward to me. The new tech needed for Monks (more in-depth unarmed attacks, longer/faster attack chains) is significantly simpler than the new tech needed for Druids (shapechanging).

The new tech might be more complex for Druids, but I think Monks are ultimately harder to translate.

Consider:

-Spell Resistance is significantly less powerful in DDO than in PnP. It only protects against non-damage spells, and generally speaking DDO players in Elite content will face higher-level casters (and more of them) than they might in level-appropriate quests in PnP. It is for these reasons (and one other) that Drow SR is widely considered pointless. For the Drow, I suppose that's fine, because there is after all no ECL penalty in DDO, but for the Monk? Eh.

-Neither grappling nor attacks of opportunity exist in DDO, so there go some of the Monk's appealing bonus feat options.

-Likewise, the ability to speak any language and the ability to stop aging are both worthless in DDO's combat-centric environment.

-A lot of the Monk's class abilities are also trivialized by the sheer power of the loot in DDO. Immunities to poison and disease, slow fall, and DR 10/magic (at level 20) aren't real impressive within the context of DDO. Along the same lines, the Monk's unarmed damage-type bonuses are insignificant when measured against the sheer variety of DR that opponents present in DDO. Will the devs give us transmuting gloves?

Granted, almost no class translates perfectly. The big loss, in my mind, is to spell resistance, which I consider to be one of, if not the premiere advantage of the class. From the devs' perspective, though, the Monk seems to present a pretty huge challenge. What will they do about Flurry of Blows, for instance? Will they allow unarmed offhand attacks? If so, how will that work? Will it be a toggle-able stance, and if so, then will that toggle-able stance conflict with others?

It seems to me that Monks would become a popular 2-3 level splash (for Evasion, the boost to all three saves, the skill points, Flurry of Blows, Deflect Arrows, the WIS bonus to unarmored AC, and possibly a tick of fast movement), but they'd have to be given some pretty freaking impressive enhancements to make the class compelling beyond that point.

There's a fine line to be drawn. Rightly or wrongly, though, I doubt the devs want to make a class that is uber as a splash, yet mediocre as a pure build. Personally, I could do without all of the artificial incentives to roll (or stay with) a given class, but the history of the game indicates to me that the devs have a different philosophy.

[Scarecrow]

What MT 'thinks' is sometimes better then some peoples 'facts'.

If you believe this, then I have some property for sale for you... in Stormreach... cheap.

[ToyVIP]

ok, i think this topic has gotten slightly sidetracked... it started off more as a thread to give the dev's some ideas that are easier to impliment into the game to keep us sidetracked from the time its taking to get the druid and monk out, but its gone back to the usual druid/monk thread...

theres a lot of ideas here that the technology is already in the game to bring the classes in, so its something they can swing in easily, rather than the mass technology that needs to come in for monk and druid...

it would be nice to see this topic get back onto what its supposed to be rather than the bashing session about monks and druids...

i think scarecrow has the right idea... bringing in other classes together is gonna stop the huge influx of lowbies of the same class... can u all imagine what its gonna be like to find a lowbie healer when monk comes out on its own??? its gonna be near impossible so good luck finding healers for stk etc...

I'm going to ask the dev's to please consider this option, bring in one or two other easily added classes with the monk and it'll please more than just the percentage of monk-mad players...

[Scarecrow]

Without controversy you tend not to have a lot of discussion, and when your idea is just plain good (i.e. "We need more classes!") there's not a lot for people to talk about unless they talk about other tangentially related things.

Not neccesarily true. There can be plenty of disccussions on a topic without "controversy." Especially in a thread about a game. We can talk rules, classes, and a host of other things (as can be seen in various threads just on these boards) without "controversy."

And again, my idea was not just "we need more classes." It presented an alternative to monks and druids, as well as listing these classes, abilities, etc. So if you need tangents to keep yourself interested, there are plenty to disccuss here already, rather than having to go off on a tangent about a tangent

So, moving on. Of the classes I've posted on this thread so far, I would really like to see either the Favored Soul, Healer, and the Ninja. My reason being is that we have a few variant martial classes (paladin, fighter, barbo, ranger), arcane caster (sorc, wizard), but no other divine casters or alternates to the rogue (bard sort of fits everywhere).

[MysticTheurge]

Not neccesarily true. There can be plenty of disccussions on a topic without "controversy." Especially in a thread about a game. We can talk rules, classes, and a host of other things (as can be seen in various threads just on these boards) without "controversy."

Yeah, I definitely agree. Forum threads just tend to die out (in the absence of controversy) or get sidetracked a lot.

I have been meaning to do write ups for some classes for this thread as well, but I've been trying to work on my Prestige Enhancement thread too. And there's only so much D&D-to-DDO converting I can do before my brain melts down.

One thing that might help would be to organize the thread (this thread, or start a new one with a more specific name like "Unofficial Alternative New Class Compendium") and start collecting write ups in the first couple posts. That also tend to help encourage people to contribute their own ideas and discourage them from getting sidetracked in discussions about monks and druids.

And, you might try including some key enhancement lines for each class, that could be interesting too, and get people involved.

[Gratch]

Given we're now coming up on 2 years with no new classes and the "most of him's already done" monk is still not here... I'm writing druids off from EVER hitting DDO. We don't want another few years worth of promises and delays on druids... I'm all in favor of adapting the classes listed here for DDO to give us something new and different that CAN be done by the DDO engine.

DDO2: Revenge of the 4.0 Rules can work in Druids at the start.

Make it so.

[Aesop]

I have been meaning to do write ups for some classes for this thread as well, but I've been trying to work on my Prestige Enhancement thread too. And there's only so much D&D-to-DDO converting I can do before my brain melts down.
.

No no you have this backwards... your brain melts first and then you start converting... its the natural progression and trying to do it backwards will actually harm the brain matter thus preventing it from reforming with anything useful in it... including the automatic body reactions... like breathing and blinking.

Aesop

btw
Scout
HD: d8
Skills per level 8+Int mod
Skills: Balance, Hide, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Search, Spot, Swim, and Tumble
Wpn Prof: All Simple, Hand Axe, Throwing Axe, Short Sword, Short Bow
BAB: Rogue
Saves: Reflex

1: Skirmish (1d6), Trapfinding
2: Battle Fortitude, Uncanny Dodge
3: Fast Movement 5% , Skirmish (1d6, +1AC)
4: Bonus Feat
5: Evasion, Skirmish (2d6, +1AC)
6:
7: Skirmish (2d6, +2AC)
8: Bonus Feat
9: Skirmish (3d6, +2AC)
10:
11: Battle Fortitude +2, Fast Movement 10%, Skirmish (3d6, +3AC)
12: Bonus Feat
13: Skirmish (4d6, +3AC)
14:
15: Skirmish (4d6, +4AC)
16: Bonus Feat

Bonus Feats: Acrobatic, Agile, Alertness, Athletic, Blind Fighting, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, Mobility, Point Blank Shot,Precise Shot, Quick Draw, Rapid Reload, Shot on the Run, Skill Focus, Spring Attack

Skirmish: must be moving for the benefits to be active... the problem with this line is that it makes the Spring Attack/ SotR line almost a sure thing for 90% of the builds

Enhancements

lvl 1
Scout's Armor Boost 1
Scout's Skill Boost 1
Scout's Sprint Boost 1
Scout's Faster Sneaking 1
Scout's Skirmisher's Aggression 1 (+1 Damage per die of Skirmish damage) (this is modeled after my Rogue suggestion... see later)
Scout's Skill Group 1 (Balance, Jump, Hide, MS, DD, Search, Spot and Tumble)

lvl 2
Scout's Dexterity 1
Scout's Battle Fortitude 1 (+1 to Fortitude Saves)
Scout's Skirmisher's Accuracy 1 (+1 to hit while Skirmishing)
Scout's Energy Resistance 1 (individual Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, and Sonic)
lvl 3
Scout's Skirmisher's Defense 1 (+1 AC while Skirmishing)
Scout's Long Stride 1: +2.5% Speed increase

lvl 4
Scout's Armor Boost 2
Scout's Skill Boost 2
Scout's Sprint Boost 2
Scout's Skill Group 2 (Balance, Jump, Hide, MS, DD, Search, Spot and Tumble)

lvl 5
Scout's Faster Sneaking 2
Scout's Item Defense 1

lvl 6
Scout's Long Stride 2: +2.5% Speed increase
Scout's Skirmisher's Accuracy 2 (+1 to hit while Skirmishing)
Scout's Energy Resistance 2 (individual Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, and Sonic)
Scout's Dexterity 2
Scout's Skirmisher's Aggression 2 (+1 Damage per die of Skirmish damage)

lvl 7
Scout's Armor Boost 3
Scout's Skill Boost 3
Scout's Sprint Boost 3
Scout's Skirmisher's Defense 2 (+1 AC while Skirmishing)

lvl 8
Scout's Skill Group 3 (Balance, Jump, Hide, MS, DD, Search, Spot and Tumble)

lvl 9
Scout's Faster Sneaking 3
Scout's Item Defense 2
Scout's Long Stride 3: +2.5% Speed increase

lvl 10
Scout's Skirmisher's Accuracy 3 (+1 to hit while Skirmishing)
Scout's Armor Boost 4
Scout's Skill Boost 4
Scout's Sprint Boost 4
Scout's Energy Resistance 3 (individual Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, and Sonic)
Scout's Dexterity 3

lvl 11
Scout's Skirmisher's Aggression 3 (+1 Damage per die of Skirmish damage)
Scout's Skirmisher's Defense 3 (+1 AC while Skirmishing)
Scout's Extra Action Boost 1

lvl 12
Scout's Skill Group 4 (Balance, Jump, Hide, MS, DD, Search, Spot and Tumble)
Scout's Battle Fortitude 2 (+1 to Fortitude Saves)

lvl 13
Scout's Faster Sneaking 4
Scout's Item Defense 3
Scout's Long Stride 4: +2.5% Speed increase

lvl 14
Scout's Skirmisher's Defense 4 (+1 AC while Skirmishing)



What's Missing and the Rogue suggestion
Missing Elements from the class include Sensory Enhancements

1. Blindsence
2. Blind Sight

Movement Enhancments

1. Trackless Step
2. Flawless Stride

and the Stealth Enahncements

1. Camouflague
2. Hide in Plain Sight

These things have either limited use or were not previously coded for Rangers and as such I didn't add them in to the class here. They are however easily added back in if the code and functiojn becomes useful.

Battle Fortitude give a bonus to Initiative as well as Fort Saves in PnP... a coralating bonus could be found and added in if desired and would be greatly appreciated.

The true difficulty of this class is the Skirmish Ability... however given the proposed suggested changes to the Mobility Feat and the current movement penalty to hit I don't see this as being overly problematic for implementation.

In another thread I proposed a change to a specific Rogue Enhancement line. Currently the Rogue's Sneak Attack Trtaining line gives +2, +4, +6 and +8 to sneak attack damage. My proposal was to change this to a die mechanic that would add +1, +2 and +3 to each die of sneak attack damage the rogue inflicts. This would enhance the rogues role as a DPS character and provide a great bonus to help "pure" rogues out substantually

[Hendrik]

If you believe this, then I have some property for sale for you... in Stormreach... cheap.

Hehe

No thanks. Just bought a bunch in House J. MT sold it to me...

[cdbd3rd]

What MT 'thinks' is sometimes better then some peoples 'facts'.

If you believe this, then I have some property for sale for you... in Stormreach... cheap.

/casts Fool's Copper spell.

Heh. Here's what I know about the "facts" of this game. Even from the devs themselves, anything that hasn't hit the live servers is still just a 'think'. As for who knows more than anyone else, the only difference falls on who has read/listened to the devs/CS folks and who hasn't. And like I said, even that is all 'think' - so take everything non-live with a grain of saltpeter.

Getting back to the issue of monks and druids, ANY new class is going to have major complications involved. Given how we tend to slam-dunk anything that doesn't perfectly mesh with our current game, then slam-dunk on it again when it gets 'rebalanced' later... Figure on giving the powers extra time to give any new classes/races a very exhaustive trial run before we ever get a hint of it coming soon for real.

/Sneaks away before the 2 coppers turn back into chunks of sandstone.

edit: okay, so I revisited the opinion already expressed several times through the thread. I will support the opinion that a selection of subclasses brought in with a new full class might help alleviate the routine we've seen with Drow, where the town seemed chock full of one race for a short time.

[Scarecrow]

Aesop,

Nice job on that scout conversion. You are right though, can you imagine how powerful skirmish would be in this game? Getting the extra damage while moving would be insane. Not quite sure how this one could be converted. Maybe changing the d6 skirmish damage to a +1? Not sure, what do you think?

[Scarecrow]

Hehe

No thanks. Just bought a bunch in House J. MT sold it to me...

I figured as much. Now just don't drink the kool aid if he offers it to you

[Hendrik]

I figured as much. Now just don't drink the kool aid if he offers it to you

He offered but it was cherry, I like grape.

[Aesop]

Aesop,

Nice job on that scout conversion. You are right though, can you imagine how powerful skirmish would be in this game? Getting the extra damage while moving would be insane. Not quite sure how this one could be converted. Maybe changing the d6 skirmish damage to a +1? Not sure, what do you think?

It is powerful... but at the same time it doesn't work against the same mobs that Sneak Attack doesn't work against. It is also a bit lower on the damage table than sneak attack and because you are moving you can't get a full attack progression going and you attack a little slower. Couple that with the Attack penalty while moving (negated by 3 Feat of course) ... I think it will be ok in the end


Aesop

[Aesop]

I figured as much. Now just don't drink the kool aid if he offers it to you

Could be worse ... Could be Flavor Aid



Aesop

[Scarecrow]

From Heroes of Horror supplement.

I think it could work. Casts divine spells, but from a spellbook and with wizards progression. Difficulty comes with spcecial abilities (dark lore I think it's called.) It can do various things, but maybe if it was simplified to +1 to hit and +2 to damage vs the archvivists enemies. It would be somethign like rangers favored enemey ability, but given to allies through a song or some such. Some want to give this one a conversion. If not, I'll try it out tomorrow.

Dread Necromancer from that same book could work, but it might be a bit tougher than some of the other classes that are ready to go.