Slow game development

[Cecilia]

I am sure that there is a large amount of effort expended towards DDO game development. The simple fact of the matter is that it is not always apparent to the player (your customer).

Example #1. We were promised Druids and Monks over a year ago. Best rumor is Spring for the monk. Is it no reasonable for a new class a year? It is time for some new classes and maybe a new race or two.

Example #2. It is time for a new section of the city, or even better, a new city we can travel to. This game is too small and too dull. Nothing new to explore except for a few new quests in the Necropolis. We want a new city of Eberon to go to. We want to have mounts to get there.

Example #3. Stop the spammers from clogging our mail boxes. If someone wants to buy plat, let them look online, why do we have to have ads emailed to us? We have enough email messages to delete at work, why do we have to do it in a game?

Example #4. Those of us who had multiple characters on several servers before the big server reduction got the shaft. We used to have 15-18 characters on three servers. If we wanted a new character, we could drop one and replace it with a new one. Now on sarlona, if i have 15 toons, if i want a new character I have to delete 11, to get down to 4, in order to create one. You do not allow us to have 15, delete one, and make a new one. We got the shaft on this.

Example #5. WOW has Battlechests in every store, William Shatner and Mr T doing commercials, and an atlas you can buy. My friend does not have broadband so he can't easily download the DDO game. He can't find the game in the store to buy it. From a marketing standpoint, how is DDO to surivive if it is not even sold in the stores or easy to find?? When was the last time DDO had a hint or clue book?

Thank you for listening.

In short you are upset because they appear to be half-assing it. I hear ya.

[Mercules]

Too many "mature gamers" that find more enjoyment talking about the game, than actually playing it.

Weird because I really like playing the game and do so when I have time. I like playing it so much, in fact, that when I can't be playing it... I talk about it. If you see me posting on the forums it is 98% likely I am at work, the other 2% is when I have 5-10 minutes to waste waiting for something or I am at a computer with internet connectivity, but no DDO. If I can be playing I am. Oddly enough I find this to be many of the people I converse with in game and on the forums.

[Mercules]

I am sure that there is a large amount of effort expended towards DDO game development. The simple fact of the matter is that it is not always apparent to the player (your customer).

Example #1. We were promised Druids and Monks over a year ago. Best rumor is Spring for the monk. Is it no reasonable for a new class a year? It is time for some new classes and maybe a new race or two.

Example #2. It is time for a new section of the city, or even better, a new city we can travel to. This game is too small and too dull. Nothing new to explore except for a few new quests in the Necropolis. We want a new city of Eberon to go to. We want to have mounts to get there.

Example #3. Stop the spammers from clogging our mail boxes. If someone wants to buy plat, let them look online, why do we have to have ads emailed to us? We have enough email messages to delete at work, why do we have to do it in a game?

Example #4. Those of us who had multiple characters on several servers before the big server reduction got the shaft. We used to have 15-18 characters on three servers. If we wanted a new character, we could drop one and replace it with a new one. Now on sarlona, if i have 15 toons, if i want a new character I have to delete 11, to get down to 4, in order to create one. You do not allow us to have 15, delete one, and make a new one. We got the shaft on this.

Example #5. WOW has Battlechests in every store, William Shatner and Mr T doing commercials, and an atlas you can buy. My friend does not have broadband so he can't easily download the DDO game. He can't find the game in the store to buy it. From a marketing standpoint, how is DDO to surivive if it is not even sold in the stores or easy to find?? When was the last time DDO had a hint or clue book?

Thank you for listening.

1. It would be nice to have some new options to try out in various builds. At the same time I am aware of how much it is going to cost in time and money so I will wait. For things like this I take the approach of not anticipating such things. I ignore promised dates until I see it in the WDA notes. At that point I expect it to find it's way into the game and ignore any chat sessions and such as promises.

2. Please... no... There is this huge area out there past my front door if I want to explore. I drive 30-45 minutes to work and then back each day. I have to find my way through various streets and natural features in real life. When I sit down at my computer it isn't to do that in a virtual world. I sit down to play and that is one of the things I like about DDO and hope never changes. I like the adventure zones we have and don't mind a short jaunt around them, but I would hate to have to travel to another city. Stormreach isn't all that small, it only seems so because of the instantaneous travel. Adding another city won't give you anything knew, just a whole different set of texture tiles and NPCs that do that same thing as their counterparts, just like GH, Zawabies Refuge, and such locations.

3. In the works as others have said.

4. I too would like more characters per server. I love having all kinds of characters.

5. You can find the game for sale online in about 10 seconds. I assume he has internet if he wants to play DDO. He might need a credit card/cash card to order it, or a paypal account. That said I wish we had more advertising and I think Turbine is trying to find ways to get the word out, look at the referral program. Now they just need low level groups friendly to trial players.

[query]

DDO, promised Monks and druids shortly. Two years ain't shortly. Nuff said.

4.0 Eliminating HOrcs and Gnomes. Half orcs I get since they weren't constant throughout the versions, but gnomes were in D&D since the frickin' red box! Stupid selling other books for their race! (Kicks ton of 3.5 books RPGA won't use soon enough.)


Slots? People exploited them, others weren't punished with existing characters from different servers merged. Get over it. I got zero bonus slots outside of the game server goal mechanics Favor and that's it. All my played characters were on Thelanis ans Sarlona. The rest gone. They were used in the same way Tolero used them as Merlask on other servers. Boo Hoo, I haven't capped all my characters. I guess I will have to play them when the role playing mood hits me. Many of the people use their slots for mules, and that saddens me more. "I need to make a new character and give their stats all +1 tomes and top of the line gear for now and later." That's the spirit!


Look, no matter what, development has been slower than normal. But we are getting development. The only way we can help besides POLITELY complaining and pressuring is getting people to really sign up. More revenue means more options. If you want an easy solution go WoW or AOL or whatever. This is a niche MMORPG like it or not. That means it's up to us to highlight the mistakes ands praise the goals made all in a good vocal polite forum. I'm sure Tolero has posted that again and again.


So, I hope that this threads lives and is not locked, and even gets a few dev replies on it.


The stage is yours, but my Major Trolling Icy Burst against Flaming weapon is being weilded!

[Grond]

1. I ignore promised dates until I see it in the WDA notes.

Not to mention, a statement like, "We're hoping to have monk by the end of the year," is not a promise, but a projection. The further away from actual release the projection is, the more likely it will change.

[Drfirewater79]

New city zone is already open on Risia and coming in module 6 ( The Twelve )

I get 1 spam per week myself and I do not run anonymous so I think they are doing a very good job on the spammers. When I played WoW I found about 12 a day in my mail.

Can't disagree on more character slots for players even if I don't use all the ones I have currently

Turbine is not the publisher or marketer of DDO, that job is Atari's. Now that they are out of bankruptcy they may put the game back on store shelves, there have been posting on here of people saying they have seen copies of the game in Best Buys. Hint guides are not needed.

1) yes i love that the 12 is open and maybe by the time its launched me and the other 11 players left on the game will once a year beable to get everyone together to play there.

Dont get me wrong i am the first one to make the comment "we need a raid area"

we got it i am happy but dont think that not launching monks will keep enough people to keep it in use

2) character slots should be purchaseable i agree with that but really there is no reason to have 15 characters i mean how many different toons do you really need.

lets take down the most popular types just to see how many there can be.

1) cleric -that heals 5)Arcanetrickster (wiz rog) 9) bard
2) cleric that doesnt heal 6) Palidan or Batman build 10) rouge
3) two handed fighter or barb 7) high sp sorc
4)two weapon fighter or ramger 8) High ac fighter or ranger

if you have more then 10 toons per server you have at least two of the same class why not delete or just keep as mule.

3) game is purchasable at any EB games both online and in store as well as at best buy i am sure you could also find it on ebay and amazon.

I agree even though i know i dont want to play wow the ads are making people i have been trying to get to play ddo thinking that there is a better future with wow then DDO ... i pull out my hundereds of pnp books and explain the potential and there reply is so do you have monks or druids yet? .... i say no ... have they given a date yet .... i say no ... they say i am gonna go try wow.

I dont care if its ATARI's fault Turbine puts there name on the product too

its not about blame this company or blame that company obviously this is a joint venture so if turbine doesnt like what atari is doing then maybe THEY should advertise it. I worked in both film and in nightclubs and it doesnt cost more then 5 k to get an NAME actor to do a 2 min spot for a game .... i bet ya dollars to donuts that Vin Diesel would do it without hesitation as he is an avid PnP nut ... maybe the real problem is that no one has faith in the game anymore . not the players not the developers not the advertisers and its hard to promote something that no one wants .......

... PS that is your fault turbine not atari's

I am sure that there is a large amount of effort expended towards DDO game development. The simple fact of the matter is that it is not always apparent to the player (your customer).

Example #1. We were promised Druids and Monks over a year ago. Best rumor is Spring for the monk. Is it no reasonable for a new class a year? It is time for some new classes and maybe a new race or two.

Example #2. It is time for a new section of the city, or even better, a new city we can travel to. This game is too small and too dull. Nothing new to explore except for a few new quests in the Necropolis. We want a new city of Eberon to go to. We want to have mounts to get there.

Example #3. Stop the spammers from clogging our mail boxes. If someone wants to buy plat, let them look online, why do we have to have ads emailed to us? We have enough email messages to delete at work, why do we have to do it in a game?

Example #4. Those of us who had multiple characters on several servers before the big server reduction got the shaft. We used to have 15-18 characters on three servers. If we wanted a new character, we could drop one and replace it with a new one. Now on sarlona, if i have 15 toons, if i want a new character I have to delete 11, to get down to 4, in order to create one. You do not allow us to have 15, delete one, and make a new one. We got the shaft on this.

Example #5. WOW has Battlechests in every store, William Shatner and Mr T doing commercials, and an atlas you can buy. My friend does not have broadband so he can't easily download the DDO game. He can't find the game in the store to buy it. From a marketing standpoint, how is DDO to surivive if it is not even sold in the stores or easy to find?? When was the last time DDO had a hint or clue book?

Thank you for listening.

1)beating a dead horse with that one ... I said the same thing every three months since launch once a year new races and new classes on the aniversary should have been planned since launch, they should have been working on new classes and races for the game before they even launched it. And even if they didnt PROMISE they did mention that monks where comming last spring march in a paid expansion to salute the 1st aniversary. They got scared off by a couple pricks who said "OH I WOULD LEAVE THE GAME IF THERE WAS A PAID EXPANSION" and now they left the game cause there wasnt one. then they said oh well we need more time so fall then spring again now what? spring again?

how about this last year i wrote a post about druids and lvl 20 to which i was shocked to be replyed to by a dev (cause they almost never reply to anything worth replying too) that next year (2008) aniversary should mark druids and the lvl 20 cap. well its jan 2008 and we just got lvl 16 so its fair to say they are behind schedual on the level cap and monks havent even come out yet so i doubt druids are even on the books at all. (I chalk it up to Turbine being lazy more then anything)

2) Mounts wont be in the game ever they already mentioned it because they didnt make room for mounts in the missions same as the fly spell which should be involved in the game cause its not like it would do anything but keep clerics and squishies away from melee attacks (most deadly stuff still comes in spell form and fly dont get yeah to far from a lightning bolt ).

as for the new area its comming its raid ready should be fun

3)Another dead horse to beat upon

If anyone could do anything about spammers it would already be done best bet is to hire a lawyer and attempt to sue based on harrasment and unless all 50 players on each server sue using the same lawyer getting a judge who likes mmo's and a jury filled with young to middle aged men and women that also like mmo's it wont happen its a big part of mmo's they way i have seen it done on other games is to start selling themselves cause then the spammers have no market and really do you want turbine to start selling plat on the ddo website?

4)see above for my comments on this

5) ddo had a wonderful little competition allowing gamers to submit there own game guide info for that purpose if you got involved you would know more .... i didnt so i dont .... but i can hypothisise that if they took submissions that one day they will be put into print however if people are finding it hard to get the game i dont think the book will sell anywhere cept the ddo website .... i dont know about you but if programing is there JOB and they cant seem to do that right what makes you think they are gonna get a mail address right. Wont see me spend money on the book.

No people are passed the point of being P.O.'ed about it.

A year after release was the breaking point if you ask me. 3 guildmates left the game SPECIFICALLY on the basis that Monks would never arrive and if they couldn't play a monk, (the class they favor from PnP) then the game would not be worth it to them.

Single isolated example? Not. MANY people have been patiently waiting for now TWO YEARS. I was playing the game in December 2005 in Beta3 stage and on the Beta forums we were told that Monks would be in the game shortly after release. We were also told that Beta4 would include a level cap bump to 12.

Shortly after release? 10 levels at launch? Level 20 by end of 2007?

The story from Turbine has been a litany of innuendo, promises (yes, some promises have been broken along the way) and false hope. You just can't easily wipe that from people's memory.

i only reactivated my account because of monks now i wish i didnt pay for 6 months cause i am sucking on my **** game account in the hopes that something will change. now that that is out of the way. should monks not be in the game by the time my account is up i will be gone for good and i suggest that everyone who leaves send a long letter to Atari and WOTC about the fall of the game in the hopes that another gaming company will take the licence seriously.

I have to admit everything tech says is true

they might not have placed the PROMISE title on everything but the truth is they do start the rumor mill with its comming shortly and sorry to tell you that is a promise. since no one is telling use why they are NOT comming out with the stuff they mention then numbers will continue to drop and this time i am not gonna waste my money to a part of the stupid people sticking with the game for no reason .... my eyes have been opened at last

DO SOMETHING or at least tell us what you are doing so we dont keep getting ****ed off.

[Mercules]

2) character slots should be purchaseable i agree with that but really there is no reason to have 15 characters i mean how many different toons do you really need.

lets take down the most popular types just to see how many there can be.

1) cleric -that heals 5)Arcanetrickster (wiz rog) 9) bard
2) cleric that doesnt heal 6) Palidan or Batman build 10) rouge
3) two handed fighter or barb 7) high sp sorc
4)two weapon fighter or ramger 8) High ac fighter or ranger

if you have more then 10 toons per server you have at least two of the same class why not delete or just keep as mule.

I have
1. Cleric - Offensive casting/healing/very general use Cleric
2. Rogue - Dwarf and a level of Barbarian, he can fight and trapsmith and UMD a good deal Good AC and attack with his Dwarven Axes and he uses Cleave and Great Cleave for a LOT of sneak attacks and usually doesn't draw agro
3. Had a Sorcerer(boring) recently deleated
4. Paladin - Intimidate/AC/keep himself upright and provide some DPS
5. Bard - Spellsinger good at CC and Buffing, not so good a Healing
6. Fighter - Heavy Repeater build
7. Fighter - WF with a level of Wiz for healing and wands. Blunt weapon specialist with Intimidate, tactics including Stunning Blow, and Cleave/GC. He tends to do a bit of it all.
8. Wizard - WF
9. Cleric - With his level of Rogue he does trapsmithing very nicely and I tend to play secondary healer/buffer with only some offensive casting
10 Rogue - Halfing with Dragon Marks so again I can trapsmith and heal. He also has Light Repeaters for DPS(at least in low levels) and later for support weapons like destruction and cursespewing.

These are just on the one server. I also have a couple Permadeath characters and an untwinked WF Rogue on other servers.

I would still like to make a Warchanter Bard, a Ranger(maybe two with different focuses), a Bard/Rogue multi-class, and a few others. Need is not really the point. Some of us would rather run a new character all the way up from scratch again, instead of ANOTHER run of certain quests in the GH or flagging ANOTHER time for certain raids.

[Yaga_Nub]

1) 2) character slots should be purchaseable i agree with that but really there is no reason to have 15 characters i mean how many different toons do you really need.

lets take down the most popular types just to see how many there can be.

1) cleric -that heals 5)Arcanetrickster (wiz rog) 9) bard
2) cleric that doesnt heal 6) Palidan or Batman build 10) rouge
3) two handed fighter or barb 7) high sp sorc
4)two weapon fighter or ramger 8) High ac fighter or ranger

if you have more then 10 toons per server you have at least two of the same class why not delete or just keep as mule.

It's not about the class as much as the build.

I have 5 rangers and wouldn't delete one as they are all unique in their own way.

Am I mad that they don't let us have more slots? Yeah a little bit but I'm not complaining to much.

I would like more slots to be available by purchase as well as some feature that would allow me to start at level 5 or 6 even if it cost money.

[aldan]

I am sure that there is a large amount of effort expended towards DDO game development. The simple fact of the matter is that it is not always apparent to the player (your customer).

Example #1. We were promised Druids and Monks over a year ago. Best rumor is Spring for the monk. Is it no reasonable for a new class a year? It is time for some new classes and maybe a new race or two.

Example #2. It is time for a new section of the city, or even better, a new city we can travel to. This game is too small and too dull. Nothing new to explore except for a few new quests in the Necropolis. We want a new city of Eberon to go to. We want to have mounts to get there.

Example #3. Stop the spammers from clogging our mail boxes. If someone wants to buy plat, let them look online, why do we have to have ads emailed to us? We have enough email messages to delete at work, why do we have to do it in a game?

Example #4. Those of us who had multiple characters on several servers before the big server reduction got the shaft. We used to have 15-18 characters on three servers. If we wanted a new character, we could drop one and replace it with a new one. Now on sarlona, if i have 15 toons, if i want a new character I have to delete 11, to get down to 4, in order to create one. You do not allow us to have 15, delete one, and make a new one. We got the shaft on this.

Example #5. WOW has Battlechests in every store, William Shatner and Mr T doing commercials, and an atlas you can buy. My friend does not have broadband so he can't easily download the DDO game. He can't find the game in the store to buy it. From a marketing standpoint, how is DDO to surivive if it is not even sold in the stores or easy to find?? When was the last time DDO had a hint or clue book?

Thank you for listening.

Example#4: Most of the people exploited the server merge and created max toons on each server and now they are getting their due justice. Your not supposed to have 15 toons anyways.

I dont know too many people that have toons on multiple servers. Except for when the server merge was announced, suddenly every one had max toons on the 2 servers that were merging together......hhhrrrmmm how odd.

[Mercules]

Example#4: Most of the people exploited the server merge and created max toons on each server and now they are getting their due justice. Your not supposed to have 15 toons anyways.

I dont know too many people that have toons on multiple servers. Except for when the server merge was announced, suddenly every one had max toons on the 2 servers that were merging together......hhhrrrmmm how odd.

Actually some of us found people in real life who played DDO but had characters on other servers. We then created characters on their servers and they created them on ours in order to play together. Luckily for me my main server did not join with any of my alternate servers.

Or...

Some people enjoy non-twink and permadeath play and have characters on other servers for that purpose. Some of those servers merged.

Oddly enough I don't have any toons.

[Drfirewater79]

as for slow development i dont think that character slots would be anything more then a cop out, just like drow was
and since then drow has been the only thing they have given us its sad extreamly sad to tell the truth.

2 years and no new classes, and the only race was a year and a half ago and it was just and elf with different base stats (dont even get the racial spells for being a drow) and they also get left out of alot like no 32 point drow (yes they are already 32 point builds but that again is a cop out)

and they cant say they havent been given tons of advice. even some things that would make it easy transition. not all classes are like monks and druids and require 2 years of updating graphic changes. (grappling and wildshape respectivly - which i guess is the problem)

swashbucklers -have no special attacks that need updated graphics
ninja -no special graphics required and they sudden attack is basically just sneak attack
scout -requires no new graphics
shugenja -no special graphics cept maybe if you wanted to add more spells
Spirit shaman -no special graphics required and there spirit guide is part of themselves so no need to animate
warmages -basically just armored wizards that only cast evoc spells so at most you need to add a couple spells that mages can
cast as well which would make wizards and sorcs happy too
samurai - all required would be adding two weapon types which would prolly make dual weilders and sword and borders happy too

and that is just a few that in theory should be much easier to create then monks or druids but how about some of the other stuff
how about feats that people have been asking about.

Deft strike, Goad, jack of all trades, oversized two weapon fighting, MONKEY GRIP (probably the most requested feat in year one),
battle caster, extra slot, twin spell (metamagic),consecrate spell (metamagic), reach spell(metamagic possibly the greatest metamagic feat since maximise),fearsome necromancy,destructive rage, zen archery (wis instead of dex for ranged weapons)

these are just a couple feats that wouldnt require too much

and last but not least races

Orc (LA+0, without favor), gnomes, half-elves, yeah yeah whatever but how about some real ones
Minotaur (LA +2 same as drow and already have the graphics) teifling, satyrs (la +2) lizardfolk(+1) locathahs(+1)
ogre(+2 and already have the graphics) Troglodyte (la +2) yuan-ti

and that is just out of race books and mm 1 and only the easy ones that require no more then there basic graphics no shifters or changlings or other such polymorph needed races or anything with more then a +2 lvl adjustment.

[tekn0mage]

2 years is enough time for major development of any GAME. If you're telling me that there is some extenuating reason for not being able to get 1 CLASS of player in the game, then I would say you are missing the boat by a mile. There's absolutely no reason for it unless:

A) It was not a priority -- fine just tell us that if that's the case but don't string us along

B) Lack of developers -- which is what we suspected all along, but everyone keeps saying there's plenty of development happening

C) Severe technical difficulties -- I don't buy this one AT ALL. True innovation requires a can-do attitude. That will often make the difference between success or failure. Complaining about the engine of the game not being friendly to what a monk should be is like complaining that because you don't have Nike shoes you can't play basketball. This is a COMMON excuse from engineering / development teams that I constantly have to overcome. Engineers refuse to think outside of the box, they spend all their time JUSTIFYING the little work they do instead of DOING WORK. Blaming the game engine is just more of this.

Instead of getting the job done by either replacing the engine, upgrading it, making whatever changes are necessary to do it, the devs are content to put it off, cast blame (on the engine) and show a general lack of motivation towards this HIGHLY DEMANDED and touted feature.

I can only guess that whatever reasons they are not in the game already have an overwhelming business bias since there can be no other reason given that would make any sense whatever.

[Jarlaxel]

This is baloney.

When they made D&D 3.5 they decided exactly what to include and what not to include. Yes, they could've included more (or less). It doesn't mean the game was incomplete.

I agree with MysticTheurge's statement regarding pnp. However, from a non-pnp player and from a purely online mmorpg gaming perspective this game should have had a lot more at release. As far as an mmorpg is concerned some might consider it incomplete compared to other more prosperous popular mmorpgs. For example, it should have released with guildhousing/player housing, and crafting. These are not new concepts and why we are still waiting for them I have no idea. Also why did this game not origionally release with pvp, auction housing, and mailboxes? So we receive these addons through mods giving up time and money that could have been spent elsewhere. These are simple concepts that other mmorpgs had at the time of release.

It is frustrating when Turbine leads the consumer to believe through ddo podcast interviews, dev discussion, and articles that monks, crafting, guild housing, and new races are in the near future and that things are in motion. But if they made the choice to invest the budget in content are we ever going to see these add ons? If we see these innovations in future mods will content be sacrificed? I agree with Tekn0mage's statement,

2 years is enough time for major development of any GAME. If you're telling me that there is some extenuating reason for not being able to get 1 CLASS of player in the game, then I would say you are missing the boat by a mile.

http://www.ddo.com/article/845
Some of you may have forgotten the goals Kate set for this past year. Here is the article.

I believe Turbine did not have a clear direction for this game at launch and it was not planned out. Hence, they very rarely meet suggested deadlines. What does that say about the state of the game? Re-listening to Kate's podcast interview I got the feeling that there is no long term plan or vision and that the team is figureing things out as they go along. Turbine does not committ to anything because it lacks a vision. However I think the team is taking positive baby steps to deliver. But it shouldn't be this way for a game that has been around as long as other more sucessful popular mmorpgs. In conclusion, this game could have been so much more had more thought been put into it prior to release. It seems to me Atari rushed this game to save themself from negative numbers.

But yes I agree with you Dane there is nothing we can do about the past but learn from our mistakes so we are not doomed to repeat them.

[Drfirewater79]

first off thank you jarlaxel for that awesome post link

that just took me to the next level of ****ed off at development speed

i figure like most others here who have stuck around through the bad times

if we dont get some improvement by second aniversary, i am sure most will leave

monks are now a must not a suggestion more missions is a must not a suggestion more spells is a must not a suggestion and more races is a must not a suggestion

stop taking what people in the dev disscussion forms as suggestions cause the devs talk a big game but havent backed it up yet.

i think everyone on the DDO dev discussion forums should read that post.

[miceelf88]

Well, she was right about the new content qua content- gianthold did come down.

But the races and classes- pfft.

The devs I have interacted with seem like nice, dedicated people. But instead of seeing monks or half-orcs, we've seen the buggy new raid nerfed, and now partialy re-nerfed, along with a controversial (to be kind) "fix" to the death penalty.

And I hope to God the new raid is not some donkey kong type deal.