Ethics Question

[Samadhi]

Scenario:
Running the Reaver. We fail, because the party leader can't handle the puzzle. Not a time issue, he uses up all 12 guesses and still couldn't get it right. No, he is not a child.

The Question:
Should the party leader have disclosed that although he would be doing the puzzle he was not proficient with it?

The Good:
I applaud players that don't use a puzzle solver, and are willing to take chances to learn. (play online mastermind until you are good enough to do it under pressure...)

The Bad:
I logged on with enough time for one raid. Because of this player's undisclosed inability to handle mastermind, myself and ten other players had a half hour of our lives wasted.

Comments invited.

[Ghoste]

It's also a possibility this person has done the puzzle before and considered themself competent. In that case it may not be a question of dishonesty or ethics.

Do you know they know what you claim they know?

[Samadhi]

Now that is a good point Ghoste - I certainly won't claim to know the person's mind.

What I do have, is him saying "I failed another one!" before I dropped party. My evaluation of his tone, at the time, was that it was sardonic to the point of my thinking that perhaps he failed it purposefully as a joke on the party. My irritation at the time, however, made it so that I will not qualify myself as an impartial judge at that point in time - hence why this fact was not included in the initial post.

[issiana]

although i hate failing quests my response would be tempered by the performance of the group in general.
if we had a fun time, then its no issue,
if it was a "i'm only sticking this out for the loot" type of bad group then yeah i'd drop after that failure.

sometimes its not really a waste of your time if you fail simply because you had fun failing!

[~Maui_86]

i think everyone should learn that puzzle its not hard at all. that way when u do join a pug group u can say "hey do you want me to do the puzzle, im pretty good at it" ( then ur puzzle solving problems are over). Bassicaly what im trying to say is if ur limited in playing time maybe u should depend on urself and ur own knowledge that way u hold ur fate in ur own hands. form ur own group lead it and do the puzzle. that way if u fail maybe then u will get a little taste of not everyones perfect if u succeed then u solved ur problem.

[smatt]

Hmm, I failed it yesterday..... 3rd time in 57 runs on main... No I never use a puzzle solver... Think that's chincy really.....

It happens...... I could blame it on the 3 casters who had 67 dance circles up instead of a couple and actaully KILLING the ele's instead of letting them build up in front of the puzzle.. But nawwwww.. I messed it up

[Aspenor]

Scenario:
Running the Reaver. We fail, because the party leader can't handle the puzzle. Not a time issue, he uses up all 12 guesses and still couldn't get it right. No, he is not a child.

The Question:
Should the party leader have disclosed that although he would be doing the puzzle he was not proficient with it?

The Good:
I applaud players that don't use a puzzle solver, and are willing to take chances to learn. (play online mastermind until you are good enough to do it under pressure...)

The Bad:
I logged on with enough time for one raid. Because of this player's undisclosed inability to handle mastermind, myself and ten other players had a half hour of our lives wasted.

Comments invited.

I did that once...messed it up cuz I'm colorblind. Felt bad, but the next run we completed it.

I told everybody I was colorblind, that I do the puzzle by numbers and not colors. They let me do it, I didn't promise anything

Ya can't win every one.

[Dogchair]

Everyone does something someone else finds chincy. You can't make everyone happy. I do agree with running your own raid if things feel out of your hands. I suggest motivating yourself to either learn the puzzle and offer suggestions, or host the raid with you as the solver.

No one does anything the way I want them to all the time, even me, i screw me up alot. I host alot of pugs, and i join pugs with the idea that i may learn something new, even if "new" is patience and holding my tongue. :-)

The odd thing about this community we have online is that it reflects like a funhouse mirror, our own selves and lives, at times.

Proactive is the way to go. Ask up front, who is, who is and who is. Don't like your answers you receive, stay or move on, but you can now make a choice.

ack, i sound preachy. sorry

Dogchair.

[Samadhi]

i think everyone should learn that puzzle its not hard at all. that way when u do join a pug group u can say "hey do you want me to do the puzzle, im pretty good at it" ( then ur puzzle solving problems are over). Bassicaly what im trying to say is if ur limited in playing time maybe u should depend on urself and ur own knowledge that way u hold ur fate in ur own hands. form ur own group lead it and do the puzzle. that way if u fail maybe then u will get a little taste of not everyones perfect if u succeed then u solved ur problem.

Actually Maui, just for the reasons you stated, I usually do a) form my own group and b) do the puzzle myself. So far haven't failed one yet (did I just jinx myself :P) and my usual completion time is 40 seconds (assuming a puller that isn't distracted).

As with the stated problem that night, however, it was a situation of limited time. Should I post an LFM and try to compete with a group already recruiting? Even on my cleric, that would take longer than just joining an existing group. Whenever someone asks for a "puzzle solver" I ALWAYS volunteer for exactly the reasons stated above.

Thanks for the comments though everyone. Wanted to expose myself to some differing thoughts on the matter.

[~Maui_86]

right on man im glad u can do all that stuff not everyone can. it was just a suggestion but just try to remember not everyones perfect at that stuff u know. and if u join a pick up group u really never know what ur gonna get. the best thing u can do is offer ur assistance.

i wanted to also say i really enjoy pick up groups great way to meet new players. but joining a pick up group for a raid is just not my cup of tea. always very unpredictable.

[Bebopalula]

I did that once...messed it up cuz I'm colorblind. Felt bad, but the next run we completed it.

I told everybody I was colorblind, that I do the puzzle by numbers and not colors. They let me do it, I didn't promise anything

Ya can't win every one.

Lets unite and sue Turbine for it's thoughtless abuse of us colorblind people! If people can sue McDonalds over a warm cup of coffee - why not? I will contact a disability lawyer today!

First thing I say when running reaver - I am colorblind, who's doing puzzle?

[Aranticus]

Lets unite and sue Turbine for it's thoughtless abuse of us colorblind people! If people can sue McDonalds over a warm cup of coffee - why not? I will contact a disability lawyer today!

First thing I say when running reaver - I am colorblind, who's doing puzzle?

this is the reason why stupidity is so random these day. my nephew asked me a question few days back. "why does the cup has a 'caution: hot contents' label"?

answer: coz there are people so dumb they dunno that the cup of hot coffee they ordered is hot!

[kaidendager]

Thats a hell of a thread necromancy for a comment about McDonald's coffee. I'm actually impressed.

[Whippy]

I've never really agreed with lfm saying 'need puzzle solver', if you can't solve it yourself, don't run the raid, there will be another reaver group any minute.

As for what happened to you OP, who can say if it was greifing or whether the guy genuinely got confused somewhere, mistakes happen, but doing it on purpose is obviously wrong.

I applaud people who don't use solvers, especially for the reaver, colour blind people or people with IQ's of less than 90 aside, noone should need a solver for it. Practise the online mastermind... get confident with it, then try it out, there will pretty much always be someone in the party who will watch your back if you ask them to. And yea, the first couple of times will be scary and at the end you might shake a little from the adrenaline, but after a few times (or 400) you'll be doing it with your eyes shut, standing on your head with your hands tied behind your back!

Down with lamo's who are too lazy to use their brains for something so simple!

[soupertc]

most of the time when someone messes things up in RL or in game they try to offset it by humor. He could have been trying to be funny cause he knew he had 11 people with him that were not very happy....he just had a Epic Fail in the humor dept. I've seen people that I know can do the puzzle and have done it alot fail before....it gets irrating when a easy raid like that fails...but I just move on.

Ah **** I just realized 2 things......1 this isn't in the genral forums( sorry to intrude into ur server thread )
and 2 this thread is OLD

I'm a NOOB and had a EPIC FAIL..****!

[Uska]

While I would have been mildly annoyed at failing the quest I would have gone with the op again at a latter time if I couldnt then due to time. as I encourage people do try to do the puzzle without a solver I cant do it myself as I am partialy color blind and have trouble seeing the crystal color but willing to let anyone who wants try.

[Lehrman]

I don't use a solver and completion varies from 4-7 "guesses" normally. I failed once about 6 months ago and most of the players did not come back for a second go around either because they were out of time or felt that the solver--in this case me--was not competent. It happens, rarely, but it happens.

Its possible that the guy running the raid has solved it the last 99 times, and failed this once. Its also possible he has failed the last 99 times and this makes 100. There really is no way to know off of a single run. If he fails twice in a row and its a 3 color puzzle...or a 2 color...form your own reaver.

[Uska]

Now that is a good point Ghoste - I certainly won't claim to know the person's mind.

What I do have, is him saying "I failed another one!" before I dropped party. My evaluation of his tone, at the time, was that it was sardonic to the point of my thinking that perhaps he failed it purposefully as a joke on the party. My irritation at the time, however, made it so that I will not qualify myself as an impartial judge at that point in time - hence why this fact was not included in the initial post.

Now if he failed it as a joke thats different I would have noted the name and made sure my friends new about his joke and let it go from there.

[Lehrman]

this is the reason why stupidity is so random these day. my nephew asked me a question few days back. "why does the cup has a 'caution: hot contents' label"?

answer: coz there are people so dumb they dunno that the cup of hot coffee they ordered is hot!

Everyone knows that a cup of hot coffee is hot, but if you are excessively stupid and put the cup between your thighs and crush the cup while driving...well then you "didn't know" to the tune of $5mil. The disclaimer is on the cup because of one person who sued McDonald's because she could not take a little bit of personal responsibility. She won the case.

The punchline? Its been over 15 years and she has yet to see a dime because the judgement is tied up in appeals. Ha!

[krud]

Wow! dawn of the living thread!

seriously, i've been the guy in that situation once. I can do the puzzle without the solver, and since I figured out how to do it, I have had no problems, ...until recently. I got ahead of myself, then got befuddled, and in the panic of running out of time could not regroup in time to correct it.

I apologized profusely, a few people dropped group in frustration. Nobody likes to be the one to make the party fail (well, some do). However, think of how many other half hours you wasted. It can easily be run again, and remember that mistakes can just as easily be made when using the solver too.

btw - I have not had any trouble at all since then. really "I know the puzzle"