Intimi-barb? (12barb/4ftr - 32 pt)

[Laith]

With all the talk of "fighters get versatility" and "barbs get offense", i've been wondering how much that supposed versatility is really worth. Now, granted: this isn't a pure barb, and many of the reasons it work lie in its fighter levels. But i've come up with a decent looking build that, while it may not 'best' the most elite of fighter-intimitanks: it certainly isn't far behind, and is probably just as versatile. The only reason it can achieve this versatility is because the dwarven enhancements to TOO good a job at emulating fighter enhancements

Keep in mind, that i try and limit the "incredible" amounts of equipment i assume i'll have. Mostly, because i simply don't have it. This is the first of my DDO Forum posted builds, so feel free to initiate me properly

Level 14 Neutral Good Dwarf 
(4 Fighter / 10 Barbarian) 
Hit Points: 352 

BAB: 14/14/19/24 
Fortitude: 15 
Reflex: 6 
Will: 4 

              Starting    Feat/Enhancement 
Abilities    Base Stats    Modified Stats 
(32 Point)    (Level 1)      (Level 14) 
Strength           17                21 
Dexterity          14                14 
Constitution       16                18 
Intelligence       12                12 
Wisdom             11                11 
Charisma            6                 6 

Tomes Used 
+1 Tome of Intelligence used at level 1 
 
Level 1 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack 
 
Level 2 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Cleave 
 
Level 3 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Toughness 
 
Level 4 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Great Cleave 
 
Level 5 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 6 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Selected) Combat Expertise 
 
Level 7 (Fighter) 
Feat: (Fighter Bonus) Weapon Focus: Slashing Weapons 
 
Level 8 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 9 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Slashing Weapons 
 
Level 10 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 11 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 12 (Barbarian) 
Feat: (Selected) Dodge 
 
Level 13 (Barbarian) 
 
Level 14 (Barbarian) 
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Class Boost I 
Enhancement: Fighter Haste Boost I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Sprint Boost I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Improved Damage Reduction II 
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery I 
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery II 
Enhancement: Dwarven Armor Mastery III 
Enhancement: Dwarven Axe Attack I 
Enhancement: Dwarven Constitution I 
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense I 
Enhancement: Dwarven Spell Defense II 
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness I 
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness II 
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness III 
Enhancement: Dwarven Toughness IV 
Enhancement: Fighter Armor Mastery I 
Enhancement: Fighter Tower Shield Mastery I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Constitution I 
Enhancement: Fighter Strength I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness I 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness II 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness III 
Enhancement: Barbarian Toughness IV

Skills: Balance, Intimidate, Listen, Jump, and some Swim.
Lvl 15/16: take barb. feat = Weapon Specialization: Slashing.

With modest equipment:
Standing AC: 10base + 1 dodge + 13 FP (max dex +5, mith +7) + 9 Mithral Tower (max dex +5) +5 dex + 5 CExpertise + 4 deflection + 3 barkskin = 50 AC (unbuffed, solo)

Self Buffed (burst) AC: +6 Imp Uncanny + 2 Fighter Armor Boost = 58 AC (solo)

DR: 6/-

With Greater Rage (+6str, 4+/day), a +6 item, and a +1 str tome, can hit 34 str with power attack & great cleave. Without rage, that's still 28str.
Read: DPS mode.

Rare Equipment REQUIRED:
+5 Mithral Towershield
+1 Int tome
Good Deflection item, or a handy cleric. Spec Optics (threnal): +3, Deleras Bracers (if chaotic): +4, or cloaks/rings.

Rare Equipment to look out for:
Daggertooth's Belt (crucible): Fighter Armor Mastery II
+5 Mithral Fullplate

Weakness? Saves, maybe.

The point is, the AC is hard to beat by anything but a lawful dwarven fighter (chaosguards, and more armor mastery), but the DR is impossible to get otherwise (except for WF Fighter). 5/- is the closest, but that means you're not getting mithral FP!

Imp Uncanny Dodge trumps Fighter Armor boost (and stacks with the +2 i can get)
Base HD is effectively 1-2 free toughness feats.
Barbarian's Intimidation would be great, but at lvl14 i can't fit the enhancements (costs 14 total).
And barbs get other frills like: rage, trap sense, fast movement, and SKILL POINTS.

[Strakeln]

Tough call, losing the second installment of critical rage. I did it for level 14 (12 barb/2 fighter) but I don't know if I'd want to go 12/4.

Of note, I find that you can intimidate just fine without fighter levels. A score of 25 or so will easily intimidate most mobs (not the Stormreaver, but most quest mobs).

[Laith]

Tough call, losing the second installment of critical rage. I did it for level 14 (12 barb/2 fighter) but I don't know if I'd want to go 12/4.

You might note, that currently i didn't even fit in the FIRST crit rage. Of course, losing a bit of toughness works just fine for that.

Of note, I find that you can intimidate just fine without fighter levels. A score of 25 or so will easily intimidate most mobs (not the Stormreaver, but most quest mobs).

Fighter levels were for the feats and enhancements.
Weapon specialization, Armor Mastery I, Tower Shield Mastery I, Strength I, etc.

If Weapon Spec isn't really needed to keep most aggro, then two shield mastery feats -should- work quite well with intimidate & greatcleave. I've seen the tactic used occasionally, and it's quite effective.

the tactic?
1. intimidate
2. cleave
3. greatcleave
4. shield block
5. repeat 1-4 as needed.

My original concern is KEEPING aggro, as if you lose aggro often, your defensive & blocking skills don't really matter much. Of course, an intimitank is only as useful as the group allows him to be (ideally focusing their attacks, and not contesting the tank for aggro on multiple enemies).

[Borror0]

I say...

Feats:

• Drop Toughness, pick Iron Will

Toughness, is nice, HP is nice, but you're a freaking barbarian. You'll get 326 HP once geared (+6 Con item) without any Greater False item or Minos Legend helm. It's far more than enough for an AC. More even since you got high DR. You could even drop the Consitution if you'd like, but it's fine like this too. I'd only drop Con if you'd really need something else...

Enhancements:

You've got a bunch of APs free now since you've dropped Toughness.

• Barbarian's intimidate is a must have, as simple as that. When you look at it, it's +2 AC. No intimitank would spit on that, ever.
• Drop the AC boost, simply not worth it.
• Try to get Dwarven Spell Defense if you can.
• Since you're planning for lv 16, don't forget that you'll have 8 more APs.

Items:

• Daggertooth would probably be nice, saving you 10 APs... you could get a lot from these. I know you've already listed it, just commenting that it should almost be factored in your build. Seems like you could get a lot from it.
• Etheral Bracers could shorter the cap between a lawful fighter and this guy by 1. Not saying they'd be easy to get, just saying it's there.

Nice idea/build by the way. I like the 12/4 split, but sad that Combat Expertise and Rage don't work together... or that the end game asks for such an high AC, otherwise it'd be much of a nicer, sadly, the game asks for Combat Expertide, otherwise your AC will be too low..

[Strakeln]

You might note, that currently i didn't even fit in the FIRST crit rage. Of course, losing a bit of toughness works just fine for that.

I was speaking from the viewpoint of your subject line, a level 16 build. Talking about level 14 builds when we're hoping to be up to 16 in a month or so is a waste of breath

[Borror0]

Fighter levels were for the feats and enhancements.
Weapon specialization, Armor Mastery I, Tower Shield Mastery I, Strength I, etc.

You should add "to make all the feats fit in". It's a nice split, allows to make the build, otherwise you find yourself short on feats.

If Weapon Spec isn't really needed to keep aggro, then two shield mastery feats -should- work quite well with intimidate & greatcleave.

Keep WS:S, it's a good feat on this build. It'll be an intimitank with a little less AC, but more DR and higher offense when needed... like I said before, if Combat Expertise would work while ranged, that'd be a great build!!

My original concern is KEEPING aggro, as if you lose aggro often, your defensive & blocking skills don't really matter much.

You're an intimitank, you never loose aggro. You keep aggro 60+% of the time (Intimidate: 6 seconds long effect (plus the time for them to realise they are not affected by intimidate ~1 second), 10 seconds timer). Cleave and Great Cleave will probably allow you to keep aggro from undamaged mobs, but as soon as any of your partymember will start damaging it.. you'll loose aggro. Keeping aggro with an intimitank is ALL about intimidate. The damage you do is not to keep aggro, but to get the quest done. If you're only going to tand there and shield block... you're not much of help.

I'll test Cleave and Great Cleave as soon a Risia goes live, to see if I like it. Those are the one that won the fight for my lv 15 and 16 feat. There are even greater advantages to having them as an intimitank. Intimidate gathers everything around you, allowing you to get most of every Cleave you'll make. Also, let's not forget that Cleave applies weapon effect on hit, enableling the possiblity to turn Cleave into a defensive feat if need be. You could Cleave around you and Paralyze all the mobs, or reduce their to-hit with a Curespewing. Otherwise, it's simply a way to increase you DPS, which is also nice.

[Laith]

Editing atm, remembered that Combat Expertise and Rage don't work together...

I have yet to see a conflict during testing with Defensive Fighting (behaves similar to CE if i recall).

1. Rage does not put a timer on Defensive Fighting.
2. Defensive Fighting does not put a timer on Rage.

The only problem rage/expertise could cause would be the inability to quickly swap between offensive/raged & defensive/expertise, and vice versa. This problem simply doesn't exist if my testing is worthwhile.

I have yet to see a good reason to stack rage & combat expertise.

Does CE interrupt rage or something? If so GOOD! one less click when going from rage to not-fatigued CE!

Does rage interrupt CE? If so it doesn't change anything as, odds are, i'm also switching to power attack.

Even w/o rage, i'm easily looking at a 28str intimitank with high DR.

[Borror0]

I was speaking from the viewpoint of your subject line, a level 16 build. Talking about level 14 builds when we're hoping to be up to 16 in a month or so is a waste of breath

Unless I'm wrong, Critical rage only works when raged... and you can't rage with CE on.

[Borror0]

I have yet to see a good reason to stack rage & combat expertise.

More DPS, DPS is what gets quest done. Damage avoidance only makes quest easier, if there is enoguh DPS dealt.

To answer your question. Rage stops CE and you cannot turn CE on as long as you are raged.

It's not bad itself, doesn't gimp you or anything like this. However, in my original comment, I was telling you to grab as much Rage enhancements as possible. I've removed them, because you won't be raged most of the time so there should be less focus on it, yes, I'd probably tell you to grab Critical Rage I if your goal is occasional rage burst, but I'd not tell you to get Extra or Extend rage, sort of waste of APs as you'll probably not even use all your rages per day.

I've also told you to get as much Power Rage ranks as you could, now, I'd tell you to get a rank or two... something that would get you an even number so probably the second rnak would be best. And that is, only if you got the APs to spend there. It is far from a priority, as it'll be something you'll be doing far from all the time, right?

[Strakeln]

Unless I'm wrong, Critical rage only works when raged... and you can't rage with CE on.

Other way around (as your next post pointed out): you can't CE with rage on.

Not sure as to how this applies to what I was talking about, though

[Aeneas]

So a barb rage turns off CE as if it were a spell? Weaksauce.

[Borror0]

Not sure as to how this applies to what I was talking about, though

more that, even if it was good.. not as much of a priority as other stuff (like having decent saves), but yes, still something to consider.

So a barb rage turns off CE as if it were a spell?

Not as it was a spell, but simply as it is in PnP. CE takes concentration, you're frustrated and can't concentrate.

Same reason to why you can't cast while CE is on. Both take concentration. Or why you can't cast while raged... anyway, you get the point.

[sigtrent]

The build looks pretty decent, you can indeed go attak or defense quite well and I think it would be fun to play. I'd definatley work in barbarian intimidate because I always wanted to use it.

but....

As to versatility of fighter vs barbarian as a class...

I think it only makes the cast that fighter is good for allowing versatility in a character, and to get it this primarily barbarian build has given up part of the advantage a barbarian has over a fighter in terms of DPS. I could make a pure fighter than has pretty much the same or better damage, about the same defense (Going WF for the DR), and can do a few other tricks besides.