Ranger Faster Sneaking?

[Raithe]

Rogues sneak for a living. Rangers sneak for a hobby.

The game mechanics say otherwise. In order to match a halfling ranger's hide score, a halfling rogue has to UMD a scroll of camouflage every minute. There is no way for an elf/drow rogue to match the spot & listen skills of an elf/drow ranger.

[QuantumFX]

The game mechanics say otherwise. In order to match a halfling ranger's hide score, a halfling rogue has to UMD a scroll of camouflage every minute. There is no way for an elf/drow rogue to match the spot & listen skills of an elf/drow ranger.

Hell, the Pen and Paper rules say otherwise as well. Rogues don't have a version of the Camoflauge ability not spell or Hide in Plain Sight. (Rangers are the only base class that get's HiPS.) A rogue has to take a Prestige Class to get really good stealth abilities. (Shadowdancer)

[Invalid_86]

The OP wants to sneak faster. Longstrider allows Rangers to sneak faster. I don't think they should give the faster sneaking enhancement to Rangers. Rogues sneak for a living. Rangers sneak for a hobby.

Not all rogues are thieves. Plus many rangers make a living- or at least feed themselves- by hunting or working as scouts.

Even though I don't bother buying hide and move silently for my rangers anymore it would be nice to see them get the option.

[parvo]

The game mechanics say otherwise. In order to match a halfling ranger's hide score, a halfling rogue has to UMD a scroll of camouflage every minute. There is no way for an elf/drow rogue to match the spot & listen skills of an elf/drow ranger.

Hmmm....so let's get this straight. Rangers use spells to get great sneak scores? But let's ignore the fact they have Longstrider spell which allows them to sneak fast.

Have you even tried Longstrider Spell while sneaking?

[QuantumFX]

Hmmm....so let's get this straight. Rangers use spells to get great sneak scores? But let's ignore the fact they have Longstrider spell which allows them to sneak fast.

Have you even tried Longstrider Spell while sneaking?

Yes and it works like any other striding item. (aka it doesn't stack with striding items.) So a rogue with no sneak enhancements and a ranger casting longstrider, both wearing Ash Boots will sneak at the same speed.

[parvo]

Yes and it works like any other striding item. (aka it doesn't stack with striding items.) So a rogue with no sneak enhancements and a ranger casting longstrider, both wearing Ash Boots will sneak at the same speed.

So your real beef is with Ash Boots not Ranger abilities or Rogue enhancements. I agree the devs should stop putting in overpowering equipment, but that's a different argument.

[MysticTheurge]

So your real beef is with Ash Boots not Ranger abilities or Rogue enhancements. I agree the devs should stop putting in overpowering equipment, but that's a different argument.

No. It's just not that hard to find striding items. Even compared to 20% striders, the spell is only giving you a +5% increase in movement speed.

The beef is that your "solution" is not a solution and has nothing to do with the original request. Also, your argument for why rangers shouldn't get a "faster sneaking" enhancement is entirely unfounded.

[parvo]

No. It's just not that hard to find striding items. Even compared to 20% striders, the spell is only giving you a +5% increase in movement speed.

The beef is that your "solution" is not a solution and has nothing to do with the original request. Also, your argument for why rangers should get a "faster sneaking" enhancement is entirely unfounded.

I agree. Striding items are too common. I also agree the OP's argument for why rangers should get "faster sneaking" enhancement is entirely unfounded.

[MysticTheurge]

I also agree the OP's argument for why rangers should get "faster sneaking" enhancement is entirely unfounded.

Oh for ****'s sake. So I left off an "n't." Way to be adult about it.

Look, it's this simple: Rangers in D&D are stealthy. In some ways, they're more stealthy than rogues.

Sorry you don't like it, but that's the deal.

[parvo]

Oh for ****'s sake. So I left off an "n't." Way to be adult about it.

Look, it's this simple: Rangers in D&D are stealthy. In some ways, they're more stealthy than rogues.

Sorry you don't like it, but that's the deal.

I'm not sure what the argument is here. I thought we agreed. Does the 3.5 D&D ruleset allow Rangers to sneak faster than Rogues?

[MysticTheurge]

Does the 3.5 D&D ruleset allow Rangers to sneak faster than Rogues?

They both sneak at the same pace.

[parvo]

They both sneak at the same pace.

So I guess I don't understand the argument. Rogues and Rangers in DDO sneak at nearly the same speed without equipment. Longstrider is a very Rangerlike ability that helps them go faster and Rogue Faster Sneaking is a very Roguelike ability that helps them go faster. The Ranger actually has a class balance advantage because it cost only a spell slot to get there while the Rogue has to spend very valuable enhancement points. Points that most rogues can't afford anyway. In a D&D campaign if an item (like Ash Boots) are introduced that imbalances the classes, you wouldn't petition WotC for a rule change to the class abilities. The DM would stop giving out ridiculous gear. The problem is the gear.

[MysticTheurge]

Rogues and Rangers in DDO sneak at nearly the same speed without equipment.

Oh, well, sorry, I didn't realize we were applying caveats.

In D&D, without equipment, a ranger sneaks significantly faster than a rogue.

[Hafeal]

... perhaps the speed of sneaking could be linked to environment. If Rangers are faster "sneakers" outdoors, make their enhancements work for outdoor settings.

There is a vocal crew on these forums who feel rogues already get the very short end of the stick in this game and even though that was not the intent of your post - it has the same "net" effect of giving another rogue ability to another class. If rogues had fuller implementataion and use of all their the pnp skills this would not be an issue - as that is not the case, it is an issue. Just my perception.

[Hafeal]

In D&D, without equipment, a ranger sneaks significantly faster than a rogue.

I don't know the 3.5 rules by heart - in fact, I don't know them at all except through DDO. My rules days goes back to AD&D.
SO, my question to this statement is Why? In all settings (e.g., indoors and outdoors)? What about ability scores? Race?

It seems to me that there are a number of factors which should affect your "sneak" skill regardless of your class. It does not seem that "class" alone should determine how fast you sneak.

[MysticTheurge]

SO, my question to this statement is Why? In all settings (e.g., indoors and outdoors)? What about ability scores? Race?

Well yes, those things affect it too, to a degree. But my above statement assumed those things were equal.

Given a rogue and a ranger of the same race, with the same stats, and the same ranks in hide/move silently, without equipment, the ranger will sneak faster because he has access to spells that allow him to move faster.

With equipment, they'd probably be moving about the same speed as the rogue can offset the ranger's enhancement bonus to speed with a magic item that accomplishes the same task.

The main gist of it is that rogues don't get anything that allow them to sneak faster than anyone else in D&D, and while the "flavor" supports them being able to sneak faster than, say, a fighter, but the flavor also supports a ranger being able to come close, if not match, that ability to sneak.

[parvo]

What about Ranger sprint boost?

[MysticTheurge]

What about it?

[Hafeal]

The main gist of it is that rogues don't get anything that allow them to sneak faster than anyone else in D&D, and while the "flavor" supports them being able to sneak faster than, say, a fighter, but the flavor also supports a ranger being able to come close, if not match, that ability to sneak.

I guess the "traditional" feeling I get is that rangers "sneak" in the outdoors and rogues "sneak" in the "city" with dungeons being the "go between." Perhaps I am just too old school ...

[MysticTheurge]

I guess the "traditional" feeling I get is that rangers "sneak" in the outdoors and rogues "sneak" in the "city" with dungeons being the "go between." Perhaps I am just too old school ...

That's reasonable. And if DDO had "environment" technology in place, I'd be all for it.

But since the game can't differentiate between woods and streets, they both ought to get the bonus.