Ranger Faster Sneaking?

[Deriaz]

Now, bear with me here. This isn't another thread about, "I want what they have!" or anything like that. If it comes off like that, keep that in mind.

So, I have my Ranger, Blindshot. I have him with 12 INT, so that way I have enough skill points to keep Spot, Listen, Hide, AND Move Silently all maxed, among other skills. So, obviously, I love to sneak around with him, get behind enemies, and cause a flanking maneuver to occur.

The only problem I have, though, is that most people will run right by. While that's not a big deal (Jump out of Stealth, Sprint Boost, catch up, dive back into Stealth), I got to thinking as I saw a Rogue, who was also sneaking, creep by me because of Rogue Faster Sneaking.

From what I understand, Rogue's get this Enhancement as a four tier progression. I for 10%, II for 20%, III for 30%, IV for 40% boosts. (If this is wrong, someone feel free to correct me!)

Now, I'm not saying in any way here that Rangers should be just as good as stealth as Rogues. Rogues are the ones who have an actual part of their class dealt around being subtle and sneaky, with sneak attacks and all that -- That's hard to look at and say that they shouldn't be kings of stealth.

What I'm wondering, though, is why Rangers are not at least a tiny, little bit good at sneaking. Not as good as Rogues, but what I mean is, as fast.

So, this is what I'm proposing, based off my understanding of how the Rogues have the Faster Sneaking.

Give Rangers a two tier Faster Sneaking. Make it a 2 and 4 point progression, for 10% and 20% respectively -- Not a huge boost in speed, but something sort of decent so Rangers aren't constantly jumping in and out of stealth.

Make the 10% available at about level 6 - 8. Make the next tier, 20%, available at 12 - 16 (When it is released).

Huge gaps there, but just bear with me here. Rogues are the better ones of stealth, so obviously, they are going to get their stealth boosts a little more often, and get them a little better, because -- let's face it -- they pretty much should get them like they have them.

My reasoning behind the gap in level for Rangers is that, while this still gives them a minor increase to stealth, it puts it at AP amounts that are agreeable at the level they're unlocked at. Also, the reasons for that huge gap from 10% to 20%, level-wise, is because, well, Rangers are obviously not going to move as fast in stealth as a Rogue is, and they aren't going to learn to do that nearly as fast a Rogue will.

Not a huge issue, here. Just a minor Faster Sneaking for Rangers.

Once again, if this came off as a "I want what they have!" post, I did not mean it to come across as that. I'm aware that some of the content of this is probably a little confusing -- I'm tired, and about to head off to bed. If anyone needs clarification, though, please: Post what you need clarified from me, and I'll do my best to explain. And if you've got any ideas to contribute, great! Let's hear 'em, and I'll add the idea and your name to this main post.

-D

Quick Edit: Wasn't sure to post this idea in the Dog House, or out here, so I put it out here to be on the safe side. Codog/Quarion/Mertolerolask/Whomever - If this better belongs in the Dog House, by all means, you can move this post there. I won't mind.

[Zenako]

As someone with a sneaky Ranger, this sounds like a reasonable idea, not sure I would spend AP on it, but it would be nice to have the option.

[Eladrin]

Sounds quite reasonable.

[Glacier123]

Actually, rangers are supposed to be sneaky, at least out in their natural range. The PHB describes a ranger as "a skilled hunter and stalker," indicating that they are good at stealth and avoiding detection. They even get the Hide in Plain Sight class ability at level 17, which allows them to use the hide skill in any natural environment, even while being observed. So don't go and sell yourself short by thinking that they aren't supposed to be good at stealth.

[GuitarHero]

my PnP ranger could outsneak my buddies rogue anyday of the week. Mostly because he didn't want to get any icky treesap on his tunic, and the bad guys could hear him whining a mile away...

rangers are stealthy too bro.

[parvo]

Now, bear with me here. This isn't another thread about, "I want what they have!" or anything like that. If it comes off like that, keep that in mind.

So, I have my Ranger, Blindshot. I have him with 12 INT, so that way I have enough skill points to keep Spot, Listen, Hide, AND Move Silently all maxed, among other skills. So, obviously, I love to sneak around with him, get behind enemies, and cause a flanking maneuver to occur.

The only problem I have, though, is that most people will run right by. While that's not a big deal (Jump out of Stealth, Sprint Boost, catch up, dive back into Stealth), I got to thinking as I saw a Rogue, who was also sneaking, creep by me because of Rogue Faster Sneaking.

From what I understand, Rogue's get this Enhancement as a four tier progression. I for 10%, II for 20%, III for 30%, IV for 40% boosts. (If this is wrong, someone feel free to correct me!)

Now, I'm not saying in any way here that Rangers should be just as good as stealth as Rogues. Rogues are the ones who have an actual part of their class dealt around being subtle and sneaky, with sneak attacks and all that -- That's hard to look at and say that they shouldn't be kings of stealth.

What I'm wondering, though, is why Rangers are not at least a tiny, little bit good at sneaking. Not as good as Rogues, but what I mean is, as fast.

So, this is what I'm proposing, based off my understanding of how the Rogues have the Faster Sneaking.

Give Rangers a two tier Faster Sneaking. Make it a 2 and 4 point progression, for 10% and 20% respectively -- Not a huge boost in speed, but something sort of decent so Rangers aren't constantly jumping in and out of stealth.

Make the 10% available at about level 6 - 8. Make the next tier, 20%, available at 12 - 16 (When it is released).

Huge gaps there, but just bear with me here. Rogues are the better ones of stealth, so obviously, they are going to get their stealth boosts a little more often, and get them a little better, because -- let's face it -- they pretty much should get them like they have them.

My reasoning behind the gap in level for Rangers is that, while this still gives them a minor increase to stealth, it puts it at AP amounts that are agreeable at the level they're unlocked at. Also, the reasons for that huge gap from 10% to 20%, level-wise, is because, well, Rangers are obviously not going to move as fast in stealth as a Rogue is, and they aren't going to learn to do that nearly as fast a Rogue will.

Not a huge issue, here. Just a minor Faster Sneaking for Rangers.

Once again, if this came off as a "I want what they have!" post, I did not mean it to come across as that. I'm aware that some of the content of this is probably a little confusing -- I'm tired, and about to head off to bed. If anyone needs clarification, though, please: Post what you need clarified from me, and I'll do my best to explain. And if you've got any ideas to contribute, great! Let's hear 'em, and I'll add the idea and your name to this main post.

-D

Quick Edit: Wasn't sure to post this idea in the Dog House, or out here, so I put it out here to be on the safe side. Codog/Quarion/Mertolerolask/Whomever - If this better belongs in the Dog House, by all means, you can move this post there. I won't mind.

Don't Rangers have a spell called Longstepper or something? You could even cast it from scroll and get six minutes from it. I don't know for sure, but I bet that increases stealth speed.

[Deriaz]

As someone with a sneaky Ranger, this sounds like a reasonable idea, not sure I would spend AP on it, but it would be nice to have the option.

That's the reason, actually, that I had it set up like that. It's 6 AP total, for that little 20% bonus total. Not cheap, but not insanely priced (Like a 4 and 6 would be) to turn people off right away.

Sounds quite reasonable.

Thank you. Reasonable was what I was going for. Heheh.

Actually, rangers are supposed to be sneaky, at least out in their natural range. The PHB describes a ranger as "a skilled hunter and stalker," indicating that they are good at stealth and avoiding detection. They even get the Hide in Plain Sight class ability at level 17, which allows them to use the hide skill in any natural environment, even while being observed. So don't go and sell yourself short by thinking that they aren't supposed to be good at stealth.

my PnP ranger could outsneak my buddies rogue anyday of the week. Mostly because he didn't want to get any icky treesap on his tunic, and the bad guys could hear him whining a mile away...

rangers are stealthy too bro.

Hm, see, that's where I don't have expertise. Lol. I never could get far in pen and paper (Friends stopped going to games, so I was left without a source.).

If it's like this, well, I could understand the reasoning behind the Rangers getting the same sneaking speed progression as Rogues. I didn't want to jump that far ahead of myself, because from what I've usually seen and been told (And usually witnessed) is that Rogues have been better at sneaking than Rangers. I also didn't jump that far ahead because I knew that if I asked for a 1 - 2 - 3 - 4 progression like Rogues have, some people would say that I'm looking for wanting what the Rogues have. Heheh.;;

As for the natural range, if that was added to the sneaking speed enhancement, I think there would be a way to balance it then. When inside: 10% and 20%. When outside, 15% to 25% and 30% to 40%. Somewhere in there, but only when outside in their "natural range", if I'm understanding that correctly.

Don't Rangers have a spell called Longstepper or something? You could even cast it from scroll and get six minutes from it. I don't know for sure, but I bet that increases stealth speed.

If I remember right, yes, there's a ranger spell that increases speed like that. I wouldn't mind casting that with my own SP, and getting the running speed. I also wouldn't mind casting it from a scroll (Even though I don't have the cash to get scrolls. Lol.). My reasoning behind an enhancement progression like this is to give Rangers a slight increase to sneaking speed, that is always there.

Like you said, sure, I could cast that, and get my speed. But this would provide a slight permanent increase to sneaking speed, and is completely optional to take, and to some, probably not a wise idea to spend AP on. It also, then, leaves the option of the scroll/spell perfectly available to cast.

-D

[woofy]

haste and sprint boost stack, and you can do them for faster sneaking if you cast haste, sprint boost then go into sneak, the pots of haste arent too expensive

Now, bear with me here. This isn't another thread about, "I want what they have!" or anything like that. If it comes off like that, keep that in mind.

So, I have my Ranger, Blindshot. I have him with 12 INT, so that way I have enough skill points to keep Spot, Listen, Hide, AND Move Silently all maxed, among other skills. So, obviously, I love to sneak around with him, get behind enemies, and cause a flanking maneuver to occur.

The only problem I have, though, is that most people will run right by. While that's not a big deal (Jump out of Stealth, Sprint Boost, catch up, dive back into Stealth), I got to thinking as I saw a Rogue, who was also sneaking, creep by me because of Rogue Faster Sneaking.

From what I understand, Rogue's get this Enhancement as a four tier progression. I for 10%, II for 20%, III for 30%, IV for 40% boosts. (If this is wrong, someone feel free to correct me!)

Now, I'm not saying in any way here that Rangers should be just as good as stealth as Rogues. Rogues are the ones who have an actual part of their class dealt around being subtle and sneaky, with sneak attacks and all that -- That's hard to look at and say that they shouldn't be kings of stealth.

What I'm wondering, though, is why Rangers are not at least a tiny, little bit good at sneaking. Not as good as Rogues, but what I mean is, as fast.

So, this is what I'm proposing, based off my understanding of how the Rogues have the Faster Sneaking.

Give Rangers a two tier Faster Sneaking. Make it a 2 and 4 point progression, for 10% and 20% respectively -- Not a huge boost in speed, but something sort of decent so Rangers aren't constantly jumping in and out of stealth.

Make the 10% available at about level 6 - 8. Make the next tier, 20%, available at 12 - 16 (When it is released).

Huge gaps there, but just bear with me here. Rogues are the better ones of stealth, so obviously, they are going to get their stealth boosts a little more often, and get them a little better, because -- let's face it -- they pretty much should get them like they have them.

My reasoning behind the gap in level for Rangers is that, while this still gives them a minor increase to stealth, it puts it at AP amounts that are agreeable at the level they're unlocked at. Also, the reasons for that huge gap from 10% to 20%, level-wise, is because, well, Rangers are obviously not going to move as fast in stealth as a Rogue is, and they aren't going to learn to do that nearly as fast a Rogue will.

Not a huge issue, here. Just a minor Faster Sneaking for Rangers.

Once again, if this came off as a "I want what they have!" post, I did not mean it to come across as that. I'm aware that some of the content of this is probably a little confusing -- I'm tired, and about to head off to bed. If anyone needs clarification, though, please: Post what you need clarified from me, and I'll do my best to explain. And if you've got any ideas to contribute, great! Let's hear 'em, and I'll add the idea and your name to this main post.

-D

Quick Edit: Wasn't sure to post this idea in the Dog House, or out here, so I put it out here to be on the safe side. Codog/Quarion/Mertolerolask/Whomever - If this better belongs in the Dog House, by all means, you can move this post there. I won't mind.

[Deriaz]

haste and sprint boost stack, and you can do them for faster sneaking if you cast haste, sprint boost then go into sneak, the pots of haste arent too expensive

The only problem I see with that is that I'm in Stealth all the time, as I know some other Rangers who are too. Sprint Boost lasts for 20 seconds, and you get 5 uses of it. That's a minute and fourty seconds total. Haste pots last for about a minute (Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't use them much), so in a quest chain, or a longer quest, you could blow through a lot of them. The price adds up, then. And, well, using myself as an example, I don't usually have that kind of cash lying around to carry a full stock of Haste potions with me. At most, I could carry a few.

Again, this Enhancement is just a slight boost to stealth speed to help Rangers keep up a little better, without being demanding of what Rogues get. While Sprint Boost and Haste do work (Along with Longstrider, like Parvo said. Does that stack? Never tried.), they don't have the permanent little boost of speed, though I can see where you're coming from.

-D

[parvo]

The only problem I see with that is that I'm in Stealth all the time, as I know some other Rangers who are too. Sprint Boost lasts for 20 seconds, and you get 5 uses of it. That's a minute and fourty seconds total. Haste pots last for about a minute (Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't use them much), so in a quest chain, or a longer quest, you could blow through a lot of them. The price adds up, then. And, well, using myself as an example, I don't usually have that kind of cash lying around to carry a full stock of Haste potions with me. At most, I could carry a few.

Again, this Enhancement is just a slight boost to stealth speed to help Rangers keep up a little better, without being demanding of what Rogues get. While Sprint Boost and Haste do work (Along with Longstrider, like Parvo said. Does that stack? Never tried.), they don't have the permanent little boost of speed, though I can see where you're coming from.

-D

How fast do you need to sneak? Want to sneak really fast? Take one level of Barbarian and cast longstepper (or whatever it's called). You'll be a sneaky fast fiend. That longstepper spell last one min/level so even the scrolls last a long time. Extend metamagic feat and you're smokin' through the whole quest.

I usually support new ideas but fact is, you can get plenty of sneak speed without an enhancement change. I don't think you should be able to sneak as fast as a Rogue anyway. From an overall class balance standpoint, Rangers are already pretty powerful. Start giving Rogue enhancements away and it leaves even less reason for pure Rogues.

[MysticTheurge]

I think, in general, this model can be used to great effect in many places throughout the game.

For instance, where Wiz/Sorcs get Improved Maximize III, perhaps clerics and bards should have access to Improved Maximize II.

Where Barbarians get Improved Power Attack III, perhaps fighters and paladins should have access to Improved Power Attack II.

Anything that isn't actually based on a specific class feature should be available to any class that can acquire it. Perhaps not to the same degree, at the same cost or by the same level, but it should be there.

[MysticTheurge]

That longstepper spell last one min/level so even the scrolls last a long time.

Longstrider, like Expeditious Retreat, is an enhancement bonus to movement speed and therefore doesn't stack with Striding Items or the like.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Sounds quite reasonable.

Huzzah!

[SneakThief]

I think, in general, this model can be used to great effect in many places throughout the game.

For instance, where Wiz/Sorcs get Improved Maximize III, perhaps clerics and bards should have access to Improved Maximize II.

Where Barbarians get Improved Power Attack III, perhaps fighters and paladins should have access to Improved Power Attack II.

Anything that isn't actually based on a specific class feature should be available to any class that can acquire it. Perhaps not to the same degree, at the same cost or by the same level, but it should be there.

I whole heartedly agree with this. Any enhancements that are based on a feat should be available to anyone with that feat, even if its only to a lesser degree than the class that "specializes" in it.

[Deriaz]

How fast do you need to sneak? Want to sneak really fast? Take one level of Barbarian and cast longstepper (or whatever it's called). You'll be a sneaky fast fiend. That longstepper spell last one min/level so even the scrolls last a long time. Extend metamagic feat and you're smokin' through the whole quest.

I usually support new ideas but fact is, you can get plenty of sneak speed without an enhancement change. I don't think you should be able to sneak as fast as a Rogue anyway. From an overall class balance standpoint, Rangers are already pretty powerful. Start giving Rogue enhancements away and it leaves even less reason for pure Rogues.

Longstrider, like Expeditious Retreat, is an enhancement bonus to movement speed and therefore doesn't stack with Striding Items or the like.

Along with that, there should be no reason you have to take a level of Barbarian, or anything like that, to get a speed boost. (Especially when you want to stay pure classed, as I intend to, for example.) As MysticTheurge said. . .

I think, in general, this model can be used to great effect in many places throughout the game.

For instance, where Wiz/Sorcs get Improved Maximize III, perhaps clerics and bards should have access to Improved Maximize II.

Where Barbarians get Improved Power Attack III, perhaps fighters and paladins should have access to Improved Power Attack II.

Anything that isn't actually based on a specific class feature should be available to any class that can acquire it. Perhaps not to the same degree, at the same cost or by the same level, but it should be there.

. . . here, by the way the Rangers would get the Improved Sneaking Speed, there is really nothing being drawn away from Rogues. Sure, Rangers are becoming a little faster at sneaking, but the fact of the matter is, a Rogue is the one who will still get the most speed out of this.

But I do like the idea of shared Enhancements like MysticTheurge said. Now that I think about it, it makes sense. Great thinking there, MT.

I whole heartedly agree with this. Any enhancements that are based on a feat should be available to anyone with that feat, even if its only to a lesser degree than the class that "specializes" in it.

Agreed here as well.

Huzzah!

Huzzah indeed. Was not expecting Eladrin, or any developer, to respond so quickly to this. And to see a general agreement to this idea is much, much better than what I had anticipated. ^^

-D

[binnsr]

take a level of barbarian and get 30% striders.. now you're perma-hasted and you'll be the fastest sneaker around!

[Deriaz]

take a level of barbarian and get 30% striders.. now you're perma-hasted and you'll be the fastest sneaker around!

The only problem with that is that a player shouldn't have to be forced to take a level of Barbarian, and find 30% Striders (Which I've, honestly, never seen. Oo But I don't doubt they exist.). Sneaking is a skill that any class can do. Rangers have the ability to do it as well as (And in some cases, better than, as stated above) Rogues. So, it makes sense that a minor Enhancement line be added to benefit Rangers a little bit. Plus, with the cost of the bonuses, it's set in a way to turn off some, while others will take it, so not everyone jumps at it.

-D

[binnsr]

The only problem with that is that a player shouldn't have to be forced to take a level of Barbarian, and find 30% Striders (Which I've, honestly, never seen. Oo But I don't doubt they exist.). Sneaking is a skill that any class can do. Rangers have the ability to do it as well as (And in some cases, better than, as stated above) Rogues. So, it makes sense that a minor Enhancement line be added to benefit Rangers a little bit. Plus, with the cost of the bonuses, it's set in a way to turn off some, while others will take it, so not everyone jumps at it.

-D

Sorry for the flippant response .. I've jokingly considered taking a barbarian level on my cleric mostly for that extra 10% to add to her 30% striders - picked out of the 1st chest she looted in the orchard on the day Mod5 was released

I've never had the leeway in any of my rogue builds to squeeze in faster sneaking and can't imagine that I'd be able to find room in my ranger build (for which I don't have a character slot for ) were there one for them either..

[Deriaz]

Sorry for the flippant response .. I've jokingly considered taking a barbarian level on my cleric mostly for that extra 10% to add to her 30% striders - picked out of the 1st chest she looted in the orchard on the day Mod5 was released

I've never had the leeway in any of my rogue builds to squeeze in faster sneaking and can't imagine that I'd be able to find room in my ranger build (for which I don't have a character slot for ) were there one for them either..

Heheh. :3 That's alright (For the flippant response.).

As for not having room for the Faster Sneaking, that's exactly why I had this idea. ^^ (Well, ok, there were multiple. Heheh.) It's a nice little Enhancement for Rangers, but nothing ground-shattering or game-breaking.

-D

[parvo]

Longstrider, like Expeditious Retreat, is an enhancement bonus to movement speed and therefore doesn't stack with Striding Items or the like.

The OP wants to sneak faster. Longstrider allows Rangers to sneak faster. I don't think they should give the faster sneaking enhancement to Rangers. Rogues sneak for a living. Rangers sneak for a hobby.

But I tell you what. I'll share my faster sneaking if someone will put it in the Way of the Assasin line and fix Way of the Assasin so it actually does something.