Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[ewrecker2003]

Well let's agree to disagree. I do not believe thousands left because of changes to the loot mechanic, changes to enhancements, changes to the meta-magic feats etc. I believe the people left because new content was not released fast enough to keep them from getting bored.

What changes were put in the game that you feel led to a mass exodus? None come to mind.

This one will if they keep the damage the way it is.


Redds 14 cleric fernia forever
Co-founder of Southern Tenants Farmers Union

[Havok34]

I agree with the following:

XP Debt. No issue with it.
Negative levels. Fine.

I don't agree with the damage to items.

The game is about having fun.

I like jumping on to the game. Join a PUG and have fun with new people. Sometimes these PUG's are a disaster. Racking up multiple deaths. Especially at the higher levels. This new 'penalty' will discourage this activity.

Sorry, watching your items disintegrate is not fun. Death happens, so that will lead to the items becoming permanently damaged.

New characters are built and other characters are rerolled. So 'binding' is not really an option.

Depending on actual results in game, may make me have to evaluate where I spend my money.

That is my 2 coppers of an opinion.

[Hakushi]

Things wrong with the current death penalty:

1) It is extremely distasteful to new players.
2) It is excessive for characters ranging in levels from around 8 to (level cap - 1). The level cap is increasing in Mod 6, so that band is getting larger. When you're level 19, you'd be losing 8740 XP when you die.
3) It has no effect on characters that are at the highest level of the game.

Those are three pretty large problems.

We're currently looking at ways of alleviating the permanent damage concerns with the modified system. That seems to be the biggest issue.

Thank you for taking the players view, the permanent damage in my opinion (for me, and I'm sure to a lot more people) is the worst part in the new system.

I personally don't have any problems with the debuff, I think it's even a good idea, but you will need to look at the bug that sometimes a spell gets stuck on you and the only way to remove it is to log out and back in. But one more problem, when you log out and log back in, if you log back immediately the same character, you come back with no general chat. (I don't know if it's a problem for everyone or just me.)

I also have no problems with some damage on equipment on death, 10% on every equipped items seems harsh, but it can be fine, but where I have a problem, and I'm far from the only one, my friends also have a problem with that, we will repair a lot more item then we used to be, if I die in one quest, I will have to repair at least 5 more items then I used to be, and if it's only one quest, it's alot more than 5, because it's usually only my sword that is damaged after a quest, and I use the enhancement to prevent damage on my equipment. I put 5 times because from my experience I think it's what it will be, but it will be a lot more when we will start exploring the new area and have to discover the new quests and areas, and how to successfully complete them. The upgrade of repairs by 5, with the diminished permanent damage by 2 only means that the rate of permanent damage had been raised by 2.5, it's a simple math equation. But I see out toughts are being taken care of, and I feel we will have some very nice surprises when it is reworked.

EDIT

I also forgot something in my post, some people already posted about it, but it's about the relics and dragon armor and robes, maybe the death damage on these could be repaired without relics, and usual damage from quests be repaired with relics, or maybe remove completely the relic cost and boost the monetary cost on repair for these pieces of equipment.

[Havok34]

If there was an actual way to repair 'permanent' damage.

Since they want you to 'spend' your money, obviously it won't be cheap.

But that is the only way that I would change my opinion about the current plan on item damage on death.

Before anyone 'flames' the idea about fixing 'permanent' damage. Remember, this is a fantasy world with magic. Anything is then possible.

It is about as realistic as every single item you have equipped becoming damaged because you die. Finger of death or slay living doesn't zap your equipment, it zaps you the living entity. Not all deaths are caused by an Orc bludgeoning you to death with a morningstar or mace.

Again my opinion.

[MrSmack]

well as I have posted before I am definatly against the damage to items thing.
and having talked to guildies ... my guild has over 250 toons on it and at least 10 to 20+ people on at all times a day ....
everyone Ihave talked to dislikes the new changes and most talk about leaving if its added into the new mod
not to mention everyone else "non guildies" I have talked to about it are totally against it
so as far as I know other then the 4 or 5 people who vulture this thread with dev fanboi pro change posts ... everyone else the majority of players are completely against this. I really like this game but I feel if this is put in the new mod 6 there will be a mass exodus and we will be down to 1 server not to far in the future.

wont be the first game I have been in where developers ignored the majority of players opinion and ..... went out of business 6 months later

[Emili]

Personaly, i dont see the problem in spending a few plat. Lots of players are braging about having tons of gold, well, we need a way to spend it (not that Im rich.. far from that, but Gold is not a problem in DDO, so why not pay for repair insted of losing huge amount of exp upon death...

This either destroys equipment at an excellerated rate or else forces one to bind items ... in each case the value of items become greater. It discourages sharing with others ... you cannot pass a bound item to a friend when you upgrade to a better one, nor can you sell it on the AH to replensh the cost of finding something new to replace it.

It is also not an even penalty across the board. Melee spend more on damages to begin with and are generally more costly to run then a caster... Melee equipment takes a harder hit with this penalty. They use many more multiple weapons and gear in general, generally are more dependent on outside healing in tighter situations and typically the initial target of agro.

A penalty like this also bears other probelms because of this... would you like to be the melee who just got perm damage to your disruptor or vorpal because the cleric lagged out and could not heal you... opps that cleric lags all the time - he sux - will never group with him again! Or how bout the clerics point of view? Hey, I'm sorry for the late heal it's bloody laggy in this instance! Melee, oh just drop group ... you're the worst cleric I've ever seen.

This type of punishment actually will drive players further apart. Separates them... will you want to pug more in a quest nobody in the party has done yet? Chances are not. If this is your deffinition of fun then have at it... I think it will lessen the fun for a lot of people though and discourage them.

[wizzy_catt]

am sure those intellectual devs have noticed and ignored we the players' thoughts, unfortunately they seems not to make wise decisions with their wonderful wisdom, perhaps a +9999999 charisma tome is needed.
Expectation for the devs are very high as of now. am hoping that more positive adjustments will be made before releasing next module.
K.I.S.S.

[smodge13]

The death penalty had to be changed, the system that used to be in was silly, think of the standard tactic for fighting
Velah:
Run in
Die
Res
Repeat.

Or the swim in crucible when you have a rogue who cant solo the horn:
Go kill yourself on the spikes
Rogue picks you up and swims
Get Res
Kill
Die on spikes on your way out again.

We keep coming up with tactics that revolve around us dieing, this had to be fixed, death should be something we try to avoid, not something we should just shrug off as if its unimportant.

This system is good because now instead of "hey Joe your capped pull all the agro away and then die" the person will be worried about their equipment and be less willing to "take one for the team".

Whine and complain about how this hurts casual gamers (it doesn't a Casual gamer earns less than a power game but they also play less and hence die less than a power gamer).

Complain about turbine trying to take away your rares (i am yet to make a weapon completely innefective from permanent damage, even my +1 holy rapier which 5 different characters have used through all their delera's farming) if your rares are that vital then bind them, if not then use them intelligently, too many times have i seen rogues using rapiers on skeletons/zombies (i myself do it) or the wrong weapon type, this is because weapons almost never become useless, repairing once after each quest/quest chain is usually more than enough to escape with 0 permanent damage and thats what all weapons need in real life, constant care.

"This discourages people sharing equipment" How so? your weapons may take a bit of damage IF they die, once again would you trust a random stranger with your car? even if he would be better off driving it? Keep in mind in the times these fantasies stem from 1 longsword was worth enough money to feed a peasant and his family for 1 year.

Essentially death should never be taken lightly, we have been taking it too lightly in this game so far so they increased the penalty, admittedly i think they went a bit far 5% would probably be a nicer number as this allows 3 or so deaths before seriously risking permanent damage.

Good job with the new penalty turbine, debuff + weapon damage should deter a lot of people, and those who are rich enough to never worry, well they still have the debuff.

[tekn0mage]

Enough of the "die as tactic" argument. Just because you see someone doing it, doesn't mean that's how we all play. FFS - I know people do that, but it's NOT a tactic. It's clearly not yours, and it's clearly not mine either, so stop already.

90% of the wasted development in this game are from people who have a freakin geekfit over how someone else plays the game.

Leave it alone.

[wizzy_catt]

"This discourages people sharing equipment" How so? your weapons may take a bit of damage IF they die, once again would you trust a random stranger with your car? even if he would be better off driving it? Keep in mind in the times these fantasies stem from 1 longsword was worth enough money to feed a peasant and his family for 1 year.

take a business class and u'll change ur opinion on that. say if you were a driving instructor, would you take control of the car 'all' the time?
one question for you. do you sit out at the swimming part in crucible? tell you what i can make that swim with any character i have. never sit out on the swim part. if you do sit out on your non evasion type then whats your argument here? cant make the swim so wait by the door? lmao. i take risks to learn quests, unknowns accidents do happen plus sometimes lag can kill you even if its a quest you know it from back to back. not all items come in doubles triples, each item is unique. and other thing is: 'one mans trash is another's treasure' you cant decide other peoples items for them.

[smodge13]

Enough of the "die as tactic" argument. Just because you see someone doing it, doesn't mean that's how we all play. FFS - I know people do that, but it's NOT a tactic. It's clearly not yours, and it's clearly not mine either, so stop already.

Your right, not all of us do it, but i have to say in my experience the majority do use it (and yes i pug a lot)

90% of the wasted development in this game are from people who have a freakin geekfit over how someone else plays the game.

Unfortunately in an mmorpg other peoples play-styles affect us all, its a group based game and so everyone has an affect on it, a balance must always be maintained with games of Risk VS Reward, for there to be significant rewards there have to be significant risks, all classes should be balanced to some degree as well (not balanced as all on an equal setting, but each having advantages/disadvantages) if there is no balance then people are left out, those who try the harder quests don't gain a reward for it and hence, never try it, how every person on this server plays affects everyone else in at least a tiny way, look at the way exploits spread sometimes, 1 person uses it and tells another, then another uses it, and eventually the majority of the server knows and is using it, look at the recent one that was in the preraid, it reached the point where PUGS knew exactly how to do it and actually were doing it regularly (sorry dev's if i've said to much its just a good example of how some people play does affect everybody) now you see the occasional person with 1 tome weapon on each char, and others like myself who chose not to use it with 0, as a result those with the better items look like a better player and are naturally if there was a choice between the 2 the better would be chosen.

Ever had an LFM with 1 spot left and 2 people click join at the same time, 1 a standard tank, the other some weird multiclass build, naturally you take the standard character because it is perceived as better.

How each of us play affects everyone, dev's have to keep making challenges for the power gamers to remain interested, but they also must maintain interest of the casual gamers, hence there should be middle grounds.

So Tekno your argument about how we should stop caring about how other play isn't very good, because despite how much you deny it, how each individual plays has at least some small effect on everyone else.

[smodge13]

say if you were a driving instructor, would you take control of the car 'all' the time?

No but would you let them take control of the $20,000 car over the $5,000 one?

do you sit out at the swimming part in crucible?

Nope, i ask the evasion character if i can go first and if he can grab me when i die, i can't make the entire swim there's 1 part i keep getting stuck on, i have died at least 10 times on this 1 part with no penalty whatsoever, this risk should actually be a risk, not something to just try for the hell of it because there's no cost in failure.

[wizzy_catt]

Unfortunately in an mmorpg other peoples play-styles affect us all, its a group based game and so everyone has an affect on it, a balance must always be maintained with games of Risk VS Reward, for there to be significant rewards there have to be significant risks, all classes should be balanced to some degree as well (not balanced as all on an equal setting, but each having advantages/disadvantages) if there is no balance then people are left out, those who try the harder quests don't gain a reward for it and hence, never try it, how every person on this server plays affects everyone else in at least a tiny way, look at the way exploits spread sometimes, 1 person uses it and tells another, then another uses it, and eventually the majority of the server knows and is using it, look at the recent one that was in the preraid, it reached the point where PUGS knew exactly how to do it and actually were doing it regularly (sorry dev's if i've said to much its just a good example of how some people play does affect everybody) now you see the occasional person with 1 tome weapon on each char, and others like myself who chose not to use it with 0, as a result those with the better items look like a better player and are naturally if there was a choice between the 2 the better would be chosen.

Ever had an LFM with 1 spot left and 2 people click join at the same time, 1 a standard tank, the other some weird multiclass build, naturally you take the standard character because it is perceived as better.

No but would you let them take control of the $20,000 car over the $5,000 one?

Nope, i ask the evasion character if i can go first and if he can grab me when i die, i can't make the entire swim there's 1 part i keep getting stuck on, i have died at least 10 times on this 1 part with no penalty whatsoever, this risk should actually be a risk, not something to just try for the hell of it because there's no cost in failure.

talking about xpoits? lol trust me you havent seen enough. there another perfect example of stereotype, thats how you treat lfm, obviously you have something against multi class builds, i take whoever showed up on the list first rather than just pick pure builds.

dont twist what i use as an example your not getting the point being made.

10times at 1 spot? 1 time isnt enough for you maybe you need a new keyboard and mouse for better controls? thats just sad. how can you say there is no cost in failure? time, loot, xp each time you die you may lose at least 2 of what i have just mentioned. lets take crucible as an example again, say you cant make the swim and you died underwater you cost the rogue his res scroll and time to use the scroll to bring you to live. and maybe second time you died again underwater, nobodys there to toss you a res dead spell, you lose the water chest as well as the time you took to get to the point where you have to give up.

[tekn0mage]

Your right, not all of us do it, but i have to say in my experience the majority do use it (and yes i pug a lot)



Unfortunately in an mmorpg other peoples play-styles affect us all, its a group based game and so everyone has an affect on it, a balance must always be maintained with games of Risk VS Reward, for there to be significant rewards there have to be significant risks, all classes should be balanced to some degree as well (not balanced as all on an equal setting, but each having advantages/disadvantages) if there is no balance then people are left out, those who try the harder quests don't gain a reward for it and hence, never try it, how every person on this server plays affects everyone else in at least a tiny way, look at the way exploits spread sometimes, 1 person uses it and tells another, then another uses it, and eventually the majority of the server knows and is using it, look at the recent one that was in the preraid, it reached the point where PUGS knew exactly how to do it and actually were doing it regularly (sorry dev's if i've said to much its just a good example of how some people play does affect everybody) now you see the occasional person with 1 tome weapon on each char, and others like myself who chose not to use it with 0, as a result those with the better items look like a better player and are naturally if there was a choice between the 2 the better would be chosen.

Ever had an LFM with 1 spot left and 2 people click join at the same time, 1 a standard tank, the other some weird multiclass build, naturally you take the standard character because it is perceived as better.

How each of us play affects everyone, dev's have to keep making challenges for the power gamers to remain interested, but they also must maintain interest of the casual gamers, hence there should be middle grounds.

So Tekno your argument about how we should stop caring about how other play isn't very good, because despite how much you deny it, how each individual plays has at least some small effect on everyone else.

I do understand what you mean, I just disagree that how I play the game should affect you. If we're in the same group, then yes, there can be control issues over which style is used in the PUG, but that's your fault for PUGging. If you would just settle down and find a group of people that are like-minded and stop with the random pickups, you wouldn't be bothered by anything else because you wouldn't even see it.

This may be off-topic but do you notice the people asking Turbine to take the fun out of the game (tougher death penalties, the whole evasion fiasco, the raid loot changes, etc.) are all people who proudly PUG as their primary source of gaming?

And on the other hand you have die-hard guild players... they want a streamlined, "less interference from the devs the better" style of play.

Neither style is wrong, it's just interesting that the devs cater to the random/pug players more often. I'd think it would be the other way around. These death changes (along with the raid loot) cater almost exclusively to puggers. I just get the sound in my head of some "mature" gamer screaming into the voice chat to "slow down" because "this isn't how D&D is played", while he wants to perma-sneak and search every 10 feet for hidden treasure and doors. Give me a break. It was cool for the first week of play, but after you realize that Turbine didn't put much reward into playing in such a way, there's no point to it any more.

[Hvymetal]

lmao. i take risks to learn quests, unknowns accidents do happen plus sometimes lag can kill you even if its a quest you know it from back to back. not all items come in doubles triples, each item is unique. and other thing is: 'one mans trash is another's treasure' you cant decide other peoples items for them.

The thing is that as things stand right now the statement "I take risks" really means "I take no significant risk"

[Chaoswf]

if u dont get rid of this damage penalty DDO will die no doubt about it and it doesnt matter no1 will refer people to a dieing game so if your goal is to destroy ddo fine but if you want DDO to thrive then the answer is simple dont put the damage penalty thing in the game.

[smodge13]

If you would just settle down and find a group of people that are like-minded and stop with the random pickups, you wouldn't be bothered by anything else because you wouldn't even see it

I have both a static group and pug often, being Australian different hours of play, on Weekends i party with Hyttm and Heaven's Fury heaps, but on weekdays when no one is on at my peak hours i generally pug simply because not many are around.

This may be off-topic but do you notice the people asking Turbine to take the fun out of the game (tougher death penalties, the whole evasion fiasco, the raid loot changes, etc.) are all people who proudly PUG as their primary source of gaming?

Puggers need to accept change because of the differences in groups, those who dislike pugging prefer things to stay stable hence static groups.

Thats my theory anyway, puggers will welcome a new change to see what its like, where those who generally don't will just complain about another nerf.

As off topic as it is

tougher death

It's needed, there is very little penalty in dieing at the moment, you can go 10 deaths and still break even on exp from a quest (unless you've farmed it heaps) and thats pretty much all your penalty is, worse comes to worse you can just not play that character for 3 days or so.

he whole evasion fiasco

Honestly this one was in the rules for ages, Light Armour only was how it was meant to work from the start, however 1 dev actually said they would never change ti so everyone pounced on it.

the raid loot changes

This was needed, thanks to the changes there are now 5x as many pug raids and the "casual gamers" are getting more chance at loot than they did when the raids were barely even appearing on the lfm.

Also Wizzy

talking about xpoits? lol trust me you havent seen enough. there another perfect example of stereotype, thats how you treat lfm, obviously you have something against multi class builds, i take whoever showed up on the list first rather than just pick pure builds.

dont twist what i use as an example your not getting the point being made.

10times at 1 spot? 1 time isnt enough for you maybe you need a new keyboard and mouse for better controls? thats just sad. how can you say there is no cost in failure? time, loot, xp each time you die you may lose at least 2 of what i have just mentioned. lets take crucible as an example again, say you cant make the swim and you died underwater you cost the rogue his res scroll and time to use the scroll to bring you to live. and maybe second time you died again underwater, nobodys there to toss you a res dead spell, you lose the water chest as well as the time you took to get to the point where you have to give up.

Is this just an attempt at a personal attack, Tekno went off topic on an interesting tangent that could reveal the nature of those suffering from the death penalty change, yours however benefits nothing except for a minor attack, but if you can't come up with an actual counter-argument as to why the change is bad thats ok, anyone is free to post.

[Chaoswf]

The death penalty had to be changed, the system that used to be in was silly, think of the standard tactic for fighting
Velah:
Run in
Die
Res
Repeat.

Or the swim in crucible when you have a rogue who cant solo the horn:
Go kill yourself on the spikes
Rogue picks you up and swims
Get Res
Kill
Die on spikes on your way out again.

We keep coming up with tactics that revolve around us dieing, this had to be fixed, death should be something we try to avoid, not something we should just shrug off as if its unimportant.

This system is good because now instead of "hey Joe your capped pull all the agro away and then die" the person will be worried about their equipment and be less willing to "take one for the team".

Whine and complain about how this hurts casual gamers (it doesn't a Casual gamer earns less than a power game but they also play less and hence die less than a power gamer).

Complain about turbine trying to take away your rares (i am yet to make a weapon completely innefective from permanent damage, even my +1 holy rapier which 5 different characters have used through all their delera's farming) if your rares are that vital then bind them, if not then use them intelligently, too many times have i seen rogues using rapiers on skeletons/zombies (i myself do it) or the wrong weapon type, this is because weapons almost never become useless, repairing once after each quest/quest chain is usually more than enough to escape with 0 permanent damage and thats what all weapons need in real life, constant care.

"This discourages people sharing equipment" How so? your weapons may take a bit of damage IF they die, once again would you trust a random stranger with your car? even if he would be better off driving it? Keep in mind in the times these fantasies stem from 1 longsword was worth enough money to feed a peasant and his family for 1 year.

Essentially death should never be taken lightly, we have been taking it too lightly in this game so far so they increased the penalty, admittedly i think they went a bit far 5% would probably be a nicer number as this allows 3 or so deaths before seriously risking permanent damage.

Good job with the new penalty turbine, debuff + weapon damage should deter a lot of people, and those who are rich enough to never worry, well they still have the debuff.

interesting so you dont think that new players in the game will be hurt by this...i do i mean think about it if people are worried about their equipment then theyll stick to people they know and that way no new players meet any1 dont get in guilds dont get into the game and leave. Also people in guilds will stick to their guildies and maybe non guildie friends but this destroys the point of DDO to meet new people and to group with more and more people.

[CSFurious]

why do you think they merged the servers this past summer?

why do you think all of those players on those deceased servers left?

only the diehards are left, along with whatever random newbs are joining (& with no advertising, probably pretty insignificant numbers IMO)

keep it up, Turbine & there will be another server merge

Well let's agree to disagree. I do not believe thousands left because of changes to the loot mechanic, changes to enhancements, changes to the meta-magic feats etc. I believe the people left because new content was not released fast enough to keep them from getting bored.

What changes were put in the game that you feel led to a mass exodus? None come to mind.

[wizzy_catt]

Is this just an attempt at a personal attack, Tekno went off topic on an interesting tangent that could reveal the nature of those suffering from the death penalty change, yours however benefits nothing except for a minor attack, but if you can't come up with an actual counter-argument as to why the change is bad thats ok, anyone is free to post.

as i said before, DONT TWIST MY ORIGINAL THOUGHTS INTO SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT AND BAD! GOSH!! why are you flaming me? just drop it please. you have no argument here you are flaming me and twisting my words.

change to death penalty is bad

1. how many willing to risk 'pug'ing when theres a chance of dying because 'pugs' would run ahead an draw too much agro that the group isnt strong to handle? this will destroy the lfm system.

2. why should items be damaged if: stuck in a place(buggy town locations) where gm is hard to reach and you have to /death to get out? killed by a spell i.e. pk fod destruction...etc. died by falling into death water(abbot raid).

3. whats left on ah to buy/sell? everything is going to be bound because no one wants their items to be perm damaged

4. what did you expect? every new players to this game are top players of ddo? they never die in lowbie quests?