Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Cutedge]

Yes, with enough favor you can repair your weapons from ONE vendor in the desert for an increased cost for a chance to reduce perm item damage. It doesn't work that well in comparison to other vendors and the amount of time and extra cost usually doesn't justify wasting the groups time for me to run there and repair.

If they were to change the system, maybe they could add more people that would do such repairs and/or make those expensive repairs more useful?

XP debt should have never been changed to allow you to reduce it as you rested in taverns or logged out. I disagreed with that change also, and that is why people can hit level cap in 1 week.

It's a catch-22. As I said, you don't really want to reward people for not playing, but at the same time you could accrue such debt that you just didn't want to play anymore.

I don't think that's why it took people to hit level cap in 1 week though. That happened because people would find one quest that would give massive XP and just run it as fast as they could because it gave such good XP. See also: POP. Before the cap raise it was originally I hope that doesn't occur again in mod6.

It should be at least 30K xp death penalty at L14 and 60K xp death penalty at L16. That would mean something, even to level capped characters. If you died 3-4 times you would lose a level, and that was a big deturance to dieing.

I think it's a pretty fair assumption that they are making these changes less because of our needs (although some people don't like the death penalty) but because they want to have the game have continued success. Part of that means getting new players. Right now people that hit level 8 or so are running into things and it makes them quit. Personally I think it's lack of small group content and the huge ramp in death penalty that occurs. It may not make a difference for people that are crazy and run all the new content in a few days after each release, but for more casual players the death penalty stings.

[ArkoHighStar]

Conversely when the XP penalties were increased there was a Whiskey Rebellion in this game.

and Eladrin simply confirmed what I have been saying since page one. Even though I like xp debt so far, eventually it will come to a point where it is unbearable, even to those of us who play a lot. 9000xp at lvl19 ouch

[Yaga_Nub]

Conversely when the XP penalties were increased there was a Whiskey Rebellion in this game.

Were they increased or reduced? It's been so long I don't remember any more.

[ArkoHighStar]

Were they increased or reduced? It's been so long I don't remember any more.

they started out at 4kxp for lvl 11, 5kxp for lvl 12 and everyone quickly slid in to the death penalty for being too muxh in xp debt, and so everyone freaked and it was scaled back big time

[ccheath776]

Eladrin,

I am sorry, but that really sounds like a cop-out. The overall Development Team made specific choices over the past nearly 2 years that turned DDO into a Monty-Haul game, starting with Mod 3, but specifically with Mod 4. Up until that point, the items were a little over-powered for our levels, but not ridiculiously so. Vorpals and Paralyzers and Smiters were still fairly rare, as were a lot of the "Uber" Loot that we all now have. But the Gianthold turned things into "ridiculous" mode. +6 Stat Items, Vorpals, Banshiers, +5 Elemental Weapons of Righteousness, and the like, all combined to turn the game into a "Uber-Loot" system. Those were deliberate choices by the development and/or management team for DDO.

Now, we are being punished for the developer's decisions to give us this monty-haul loot. Now, you are forcing players to Bind their equipment, or run SERIOUS risk of completely ruining their items, and enforcing a major plat penalty on all players for death. While there are plenty of players out there with multiple capped characters, all with maximum plat, there is still the VAST majority of players who don't have that much plat on any of their characters, and you are going to penalize those players where it hurts the most. While I am a more active player myself, I probably don't have more than 75k plat between all of my 10 characters... but when I play with more Casual Players, the #1 gripe I hear from them is that they never have the plat to buy things on the AH, or even stock potions & wands & Scrolls!

You are seriously going to death-penalty most Casual Players into quitting the game, because the repair bills will outweigh the loot sold prices. On the flip side, your more Hardcore Players are going to stop playing their high-level characters (if not the game entirely) due to the forced decision of Bind or Destroy. I am personally considering cancelling my account because of this FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE to the game. (PS: and no, you can't have my stuff). I know that many of my friends who play are in the same boat as I am, and we are all having serious discussions about continuing playing this game (most all have played since Beta).

Seriously, if this new system is implemented, who is going to be able to afford to "figure out" the new Raid & quests? And yes, I have been testing on Risia, and the Permanent Damage rate is still quite high. I tested with a character with NO bound items on, and I was getting Permanent Damage on about 1-2 items for EVERY DEATH!!! I remember running Ghosts of Perdition the 2nd or 3rd night after Mod 5 came out with a Casual Group, and we party-wiped 5 times (and each player died 8-10 times each due to raise-and-die). Then add to that the Save-Or-Die effects in many quests, or the miss-your-jump-and-die in the Abbot Raid, and the game quickly prices players out of the game.

I understand the need to remove items from the economy, but this is not the way to do it. The balance is still not there... binding is a step, but not a sufficient step. Make it Bind to your ACCOUNT, and then Bound Items take no damage, and we have a usable system. Why should I not be able to move items back and forth between my own characters??? Why am I forced to chose between a *LOT* of permament Damage or Binding an item, which renders it utterly useless if I ever get a better one? That is penalizing players for your design and development mistakes. We should not have multiple Vorpals and Smiters, and such... nor should we have half the gear and weapons that we do... but you put them in the game. You have tried various methods to "fix" the economy with Plat-Sinks (AH, Respec Feats, etc), but none of them have worked. The only true "Plat & Item Sink" that really comes to mind is crafting, but that is still "sometime in the future".

I am sorry, but this system is going to drive players away. I have always hated the DOOOM! posts, and have refrained in the past, and even supported most of the other changes, but this one really scares me. Seriously, you have almost 1,200 posts in this thread alone, with 90%+ of the posts in opposition... I know the Forum Community is a small sub-section of the DDO Playerbase, and a very opinionated and vocal one, but you need to listen to the overwhelming majority. This Death Penalty will force people to AFK during quests, recall to repair and get rid of negative levels, and stop playing their capped characters. It will also FORCE players to farm for items to be able to pay their repair bills, or to the Plat Farmers... most casual players won't be able to afford the repairs at the higher levels. And given that the temporary negative level will lead to MORE deaths, if the player doesn't just AFK or Recall, as they will be less able to fight/cast/anything. You are SERIOUSLY penalizing the Arcane Classes here as well... Whatever... I think this entire change is a SERIOUS mistake, and I wish someone would listen. And I'm sorry, Eladrin, but all of your posts have that "We don't care what you think or say, we're going to do this and you have to live with it" tone to them. There is no "We understand your concerns..." or anything along those lines.

Not necessarily.
You have 2 - 3 people posting over and over again 100 times or more.

[Ciaran]

I've never met an ex-addict. I've met recovered addicts meaning they don't currently partake in that particular addiction. We shall move on to relevant points and ignore the term "recreational drug use".

Don't split hairs, I'm sure you know what I meant.

Absolutely Turbine is to blame. It started with the initial setup of DDO and hasn't been resolved yet. However, just because they didn't have that concern then does not mean it shouldn't be a concern now that it is apparent how that decision affected the game. Notice, no +1 loot weekend this last outage.

And I did state Turbine was at fault and also stated we are too. What is wrong with blaming EVERYONE who could affect it?

There's such a thing as too little, too late. Sometimes letting things run the course they have been set on, while undesirable is far less destructive than making drastic changes. This may or may not be the case here and, as it always does, I presume time will tell. I guess I might not fully understand what the long term potential damage to the game would be if the economy is never "fixed". Keep in mind I came from UO, a game that in many ways has had a broken economy for the last four year or so. It's still a game people play and enjoy a lot, even if it isn't a top competitor.

But saying we are not to blame for an economy we are involved in and helped create is ludicrous. Ignore the +1 loot weekends, how many LFMs do you still see with the claim, "looting chests only" or "fast run for loot"? We are still flooding the economy with items. I understand WHY we do it, but to say, "But they let us." and then complaining when they do something that might remove that ability is silly. Suddenly they aren't letting us so we should complain until we can keep the same excuse?

I'm saying what do you expect people to do? This is a mechanic that exists in several MMO's, it's an argument that's been had on countless MMO forums, I'm sure. The economy always gets flooded with items, especially when there's crafting, depending on how it's implemented. I really don't think it's as much of a problem as people say it is, but then again I could be wrong. Keep in mind I'm not arguing from the standpoint of the excessive loot runner - I have more fun running the same quests with friends in new and entertaining ways and trying out new builds and concepts. As I stated above and elsewhere, making drastic changes and pushing the burden of their own mistakes on the consumer is upsetting to many people, and will probably cause many people to leave. I'm not likely to be one of them, I enjoy the game and the stuff MOD6 has to offer aside from this death penalty. I also don't die a whole lot regularly - not necessarily having a personal stake in something doesn't mean I can't see how it's more a bad idea than a good one.

But the rules are still allowed to change and how we play the game WILL influence how those rules change. I liked being able to buy certain scrolls, but because others decided to use them the way they did those scrolls went bye-bye. I suppose that was the developers fault for selling the scrolls in the first place?

Well, that's a different argument in my book. People were abusing the ability to buy those scrolls en masse to exploit. That's a different thing from a "flooded economy". The whole flooded economy argument seems to be coming from people who are more PnP purists and are dissatisfied with DDO's power curve. I could be wrong in that assessment, but to me it seems to boil down to two playstyles bickering back and forth when in reality this game should be amendable to both playstyles.

[Ciaran]

Not necessarily.
You have 2 - 3 people posting over and over again 100 times or more.

Okay, I challenge you to count unique users giving feedback and divide them into PRO and CON camps. I'd like to see the result.

[Ciaran]

i suppose i'm starting to wonder why capped characters can't have a premium amount of xp penalty upon death. of course, people would just come up with ways to stay just below capped.

it's too late for that. this new system is going through. the best we can all do is suggest some resonable tweaks. thanks to those who have!

Oh, I have, they're just several pages back so I can't blame you for missing them.

I agree that capped characters should still feel the sting of death.

I suggessted scaling back the item damage penalty to scale per death and possibly cap at a certain percentage.
I suggessted introducing a mechanic to self-repair gear by either using the skill and/or the spell/wands.
I suggessted mixing XP Debt with Dolurrh death effects

[ArkoHighStar]

Oh, I have, they're just several pages back so I can't blame you for missing them.

I agree that capped characters should still feel the sting of death.

I suggessted scaling back the item damage penalty to scale per death and possibly cap at a certain percentage.
I suggessted introducing a mechanic to self-repair gear by either using the skill and/or the spell/wands.
I suggessted mixing XP Debt with Dolurrh death effects

really that was proposed way before you got here

[Dariuss]

this reminds me of the conversations (to use the term losoely) about the new enhanecement system.........

[kengsxr]

If capped toons should feel the "sting of death", how about an xp bank we can keep our wasted sp in for the next update, it should be a 2 way street

[ArkoHighStar]

If capped toons should feel the "sting of death", how about an xp bank we can keep our wasted sp in for the next update, it should be a 2 way street

it woudl be logical but not really much fun as we would be capped in about 5 minutes after we killed our giant in threnal, although now you have to go kill the pair after as the single giant gives you no xp when moving from 14 to 15th level

[ccheath776]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

What do you call the report that tells you the number of deaths in a game?

The deadpool
The funeral procession
The graveyard ticker
The spirit meter
Deadfellas stats
The dearly departed report
The death certificate

[Boulderun]

That sounds exactly like a typical day's radio lineup on WCYY here in Maine. It makes me consider artificially inflating the death count, that's for sure.

[xman26]

Things wrong with the current death penalty:

1) It is extremely distasteful to new players.
2) It is excessive for characters ranging in levels from around 8 to (level cap - 1). The level cap is increasing in Mod 6, so that band is getting larger. When you're level 19, you'd be losing 8740 XP when you die.
3) It has no effect on characters that are at the highest level of the game.

Those are three pretty large problems.

We're currently looking at ways of alleviating the permanent damage concerns with the modified system. That seems to be the biggest issue.

1.Says you and all the newbies, who all my god, can't complete Dirks on leet solo while at level 2, well no duh, this game is ment to be played within a party, not solo.
2. It is not excessive, if I die so much that I break even or remain in the hole, then thats my fault not the games for zerging off on my own leaving the group behind. I and noone else has any place to gripe because the party didn't come to my rescue or there for my/our stupidity.
3. That is yours, the devs fault, as you continuely drag feet raising the lvl cap. There is something wrong when 3/4 of any given guild is 14t level because it has stayed there for so long. And whats up with just raising the cap 2 levels? It should be 3-4 level given how long its been since you have raised it.
4. I die on average 1.5 times per leet venture I run with a group that knows the quest. 3-4 on those that are new or just a royal pain in the a$$. Things you could do to fix alot of issues would be to curtale the respawn rates in some quests, Ghosts anyone? RAID quests usually produce the worst case number of deaths for me outside the new content where I can and have died up to 20 times. If you didn't have the regen, I'd have to work quests to get that back, as it is now, hell, why owrry, when i come back next weekend, it'll be mostly gone. This is a problem you devs created and now expect us, who have played with you existing system, to just bend over and take it because newbies can't figure out how to play the game because soloing quests on leet at lvl 2,3,4,5 or zerging off without the party is the thing to do. I say let them learn how to play the game or leave as they dont really add much to the game if they can't figure out this game is ment to be played WITHIN A GROUP and not solo.

[NiasTrams]

El, I think I have a solution that will still leave a large portion of the group upset, but will definitely seperate two issues you are hoping to address in this one solution;

1st: The Gods decree each time they have to allow a scroll or cleric to allow a dead person to come back to life a paultry tithe of 25 PP^level-25 PP and will automatically be deducted from from a persons coinage, if insufficient coins, then on a 1 PP = 1 XP ratio of XP will be dedected from the character.

2nd: The Gods decree that too much "glutany" exists in the world so the current damage/permanent damage system will be adjusted upwards to reduce the amount of "glutany"; but if "X" character spent 13 months to pull his vorpal/disruptor/uber item, "X" character can choose whether of not to have the uber item bound to him and suffer no permanent damage, this way the uber item pulled by "X" will in one way or another leave the world when "X" leaves.

Being decreed by the Gods of Stormreach; live with it, die with it or leave!

El, I personally have no lack of faith in you and the other DEVs; I do think 10% of the maximum durability each time I die is steep and would prefer a graduating system as recommended by others in this thread.

Since I have an indication of what is coming, in one form or another, I am going back to playing the game with my time instead of weatching this thread grow.

[xman26]

Agreed.

Sorry Prinstoni but there are many players that think the death penalty very much needed addressing.

SOrry, but I strongly disagree and to change a system because newbies can't figure out this is a GROUP/PARTY game system and not a zerging/soloing on leet system doesn't need to be playing anyways.

[Mercules]

SOrry, but I strongly disagree and to change a system because newbies can't figure out this is a GROUP/PARTY game system and not a zerging/soloing on leet system doesn't need to be playing anyways.

Oddly enough the people I most see thinking they can zerg/solo on leet are not NEW players.

Most new players have a hard time keeping up with the zergers in groups. Now they might die because of mistakes and not knowing what to do, but I think more than anything they die during the normal learning experience. I also wonder if a couple are because everyone around them is so twinked they falsely believe they can do the same things. "I watched a Fighter do X but I died trying that." Ah, well that Fighter had +3 RR Admantine FP and you are wearing +1 FP. He also had a +1 Keen Kopesh instead of your masterwork Longsword. Did I forget Cloven Jaw Beads for +2 Con and the Trapblast Goggles for the Reflex Saves and the Shield Clicky for the MMs?

[Dailus]

ok after 75 pages I'll throw in my opinion. Personally I think its crazy to remove the xp loss death penalty. Honestly with the amount of content thats currently in the game the penalty -IS- very often the reason I go back and do the quests over. One of the reasons I play this game is because I get a sense of achievement for advancing levels. If the penalty is removed then it will be even easier to level and personally it really won't feel like such an achievement anymore. Is the overwhelming feedback you got from the exit survey taken after you cancel your subscription? Do you really think those players will come back because you remove the XP penalty? I have cancelled twice in the last year and its really because lack of content. I love this game but honestly just give me something NEW to do to EARN my XP loss back, don't make it so easy to level that once a quest is done there is no reason to repeat it. I mean sheesh I won't run it for the loot cause 90% of my equipment is bought from the auction house because frankly I am just not that lucky. If you think you will gain more subscriptions than you will loose with this change then hey all the more power to you your the business men (women) here, but since you can't even find DDO on the store shelves I'd concentrate on keeping my CURRENT paying customers happy so maybe they will recommend the game to a friend, because little Johnny sure ain't going to find it at Walmart, Gamestop, or bestbuy this holiday season.

-Dailus

[Ron]

3. That is yours, the devs fault, as you continuely drag feet raising the lvl cap. There is something wrong when 3/4 of any given guild is 14t level because it has stayed there for so long. And whats up with just raising the cap 2 levels? It should be 3-4 level given how long its been since you have raised it.

This is nonsensicle. There will ALWAYS be a level cap, and there will ALWAYS be players sitting at that level cap. That is hardly Turbine's fault. You need to address how to make death affect all players, not a subset of them, as is the case we have now. Raising the level cap does not solve this issue in any way.