Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Serpent]

This is a pretty good point you "ZOMG this is nothing like PnP!!!" people are ignoring.

In D&D, Raise Dead requires 5,000 GP, Resurrection requires 10,000 GP and True Resurrection requires 25,000 GP.

If we're being charged about 4-6 thousand gold per death, we're getting away cheap.

This is assuming that people play for plat. They play for items. Two different things. that are remotely related by the AH and vendor.

[moorewr]

No, I went from having Owned by Dolurrh to having nothing at all. After five negative levels I was at 50-something HP. When the 60 second timer expired, I went back to my full HP. I was expecting to see one timer expire and a new one pop up for the next lowest level of debuff, but that didn't happen.

Does it matter that I was standing in the Gianthold next to ogre bartender (in other words, an inn)?

Ah ha! My experience is that the tavern rest effect will remove the debuff completely when it resets your clickies.

[Dariun]

Does it matter that I was standing in the Gianthold next to ogre bartender (in other words, an inn)?

I noticed that the negatives were out of whack -17/-17/-13 for my saves...and will (the last one) is my lowest save.

I think being in a tavern resets all the penalties in 1 minute (same timer as clicky recharging).

Yes, there is a definite bug on Risia where you can get enormous negatives to saves, hit points, and to hit. If I have time to test again, I want to see if I can get base hit points below 0. Last time I got down to 10 hit points, and I was wearing a +3 CON item (+20 hitpoints) and lesser false life (+5 hitpoints). I think if I take that off in an instance with no shrine or tavern, I will have discovered true permadeath in DDO.

[Serpent]

Things wrong with the current death penalty:

1) It is extremely distasteful to new players.
2) It is excessive for characters ranging in levels from around 8 to (level cap - 1). The level cap is increasing in Mod 6, so that band is getting larger. When you're level 19, you'd be losing 8740 XP when you die.
3) It has no effect on characters that are at the highest level of the game.

Those are three pretty large problems.

We're currently looking at ways of alleviating the permanent damage concerns with the modified system. That seems to be the biggest issue.

That is nice to hear. i thank you for listening to the player base. I have proposed an idea it is rough but please look at it.

[Yaga_Nub]

Ah ha! My experience is that the tavern rest effect will remove the debuff completely when it resets your clickies.

Mine is more like Ciaran's than yours but I'll go test it again.

[bellack]

This is assuming that people play for plat. They play for items. Two different things. that are remotely related by the AH and vendor.

I play for fun. I know, that's rare.

[Marabias]

Things wrong with the current death penalty:

1) It is extremely distasteful to new players.
I find this weird. Even at low levels and I just leveled up a new wizard, I found exp death a joke. However I am not a new player. I would love to know how many of the trial accounts that said exp death was to harsh were farmer accounts. They are a large user of the trial accounts. To bad we will never know for sure. Ether way I have had at least 30+ people from my old EQ days try this game, none complained about exp. The main complaints were lag combined with the combat system and very unfriendly to solo play. Only 3 people made it past the trial and no one made it longer then 3 months other then me.
2) It is excessive for characters ranging in levels from around 8 to (level cap - 1). The level cap is increasing in Mod 6, so that band is getting larger. When you're level 19, you'd be losing 8740 XP when you die.
The real problem here is the difference in exp from quest to quest. Not the death exp itself. The exp you get from the different quests is far too inconsistent. So when new players are playing at these levels and not knowing the "best quests" it can hurt. Exp has always been something out of whack from quest to quest and the dev team has never really pegged a consistent exp value for the quests. It’s like playing D&D with 10 different DMs on 10 different days.
3) It has no effect on characters that are at the highest level of the game.
Simple fix. Keep the "You have repeated this quest X times" counter counting even when capped. When one pop run clears up 5 deaths its no big deal, but when 1 death takes 2 or 3 pop runs to clear up because you loot ran it so much it will make a difference. It would also be much more friendly to the more casual player. They will not exhaust all the quests of exp as quick as people who play a lot.
Those are three pretty large problems.


We're currently looking at ways of alleviating the permanent damage concerns with the modified system. That seems to be the biggest issue.
My biggest issue is I do not want to bind all my gear just to protect it. I will try the system and I will not bind my gear and we will see how it goes.

I still think it is a very wrong answer to the problems this game is having. I get the feeling that Turbine knows they have went through the MMO crowd already and is now hoping for more "New to MMO" people. For instance I tryed to do the refure some friends thing, free month and all, no one will even give it a try. They already did and will not bother. No one is playing an MMO right now even so from my very small sample that means about squat I just seen DDO lose out to playing no MMO at all.

[Serpent]

I disagree. Play permadeath if you are lacking for challenge.

Agreed. The death penalty should not be forced. if you don't like it change your play style.

[Dariun]

Eladrin just told us that the feedback is useless. That the proposed plan is near 100% concrete.

Which is pretty much the same situation we had with human versatility in Mod 3.3 (no amount of reasonable or unreasonable feedback would change it because too much coding had already been done).

Only difference is that the human versatility change only affected a small subset of characters. This change hits everyone.

I uninstalled Risia after all the HV feedback was ignored. I was hoping things would be different this time, but that seems foolish of me: fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me .

[Serpent]

MT, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought clerics already had to pay that price? Or do the spells use only standard components and scrolls the only thing that uses that material? Or is the cost of them even cheaper than PnP would have?

Um do you play this game? How could you not know that? Please tell me you are not in favor of the new system, with such limited knowledge?

[borgec]

This thread amuses me. Actually many posts on this forum amuse me

Every time there is some kind of change announced, the same people cry and scream and claim that the world is ending. The change goes live and everyone realizes that the change actually was not that bad. Does anyone actually think the powers that be at turbine do not spend a lot of time analyzing what changes to make? Do you really think they will purposely put a change in the game that will adversely effect the player experience and cause people to leave the game. Their livelihood (Job) is directly effected by the state of the game. If the game tanks they lose their jobs. They have thought this out, as they did all the other changes. Which in my opinion benefited the game.

Now most of the people who are complaining the loudest have been playing for as long as I have. I play a few hours a day maybe 4-5 days a week which is minimal compared to how many hours some people play. I have more than enough money that this will never effect my play style or bank account. I cannot believe anyone who has multiple capped characters does not have a full bank account. As for uber weapons most of mine are all situational and have little or no damage. Will I ever bind them, maybe if they ever get down to below 40% durability.

As for dieing, I think people are really exaggerating the number of times they die, I as well as most people I run with die maybe on average one per night (some rarely, some more than others). I also do not really think that the number of deaths increases when we run the new quests for the first time because we always scout ahead, plan each fight, search for traps, explore every area of the map.

The only time I see multiple deaths is learning the new raid. But most of the time the people in my guild who are raid ready first and spend the time to learn the raid, would have enough funds that this would not be dramatic or game changing.

I also beilive that death should matter, and it currently does not for me.

So everyone take a deep breath, and relax. This game is supposed to be fun.

[Serpent]

I play for fun. I know, that's rare.

I do to. I was addressing the idea that gold and items are the same thing, they are not. Fun for me comes in many forms one of them is the items I pull.

[MrSmack]

nvm lol my reply was a page late by the time I hit post

[Mercules]

The typical penalty in PnP depends on your DM. Not a good comparison.

Who's our GM and what is the penalty they are putting in place?

[Cutedge]

So you would prefer a system that makes you not want to play at all or risk losing rare items that you didn't bind? Please, xp loss and item loss are two completely different issues.

Aren't there places where you can pay more to have things repaired with less or no chance of permanent damage?

Item loss means...you may never get it back no matter how much looting you do. The time to replace it could be infinate. E.G. Your +1 flaming burst adamantine battle axe of greater construct bane has been permanently damaged makes me very very angry. Now it will take damage everytime I die as well as from use in the quest which means, if I die while using it, the chance for perm damage is greater (and it is already at 50%). Use X in place of your rare items, and see how happy you will be to lose something that took you 2 years to find.

This is true.

XP loss means...you run a few quests and get your experience back. It makes sense and that is how D&D is.

If you only have a very limited amount of time and not many people on you group with, then it's more likely that you just log out with xp debt.

[Gratch]

I've died a few times on Risia. I'm not too mad at the new scheme. Bound stuff that was raided for doesn't perm break. Everything else will get replaced over and over as the level cap goes up... probably even including some of the bound stuff. If its uber-awesome and not bound, you can bind it.

I do think now is a better time to go die over and over in the Abbot and learn the puzzles than post Mod6...

[Ciaran]

No... you need to go back and take them in CONTEXT not out of context.

It's still a really poor analogy. You aren't the only one who's dealt with people addicted to drugs, bud. In context they don't hold any water, because the motivations for playing a game and the motivations for..you know, doing drugs, are totally different and far more vaired. You mentioned the comparison was apt to you because of the ex-addicts you know, for the same reason I can lambast the comparison as not being apt or appropriate. I've no desire to argue this incessantly with you anymore though, so let's just talk about the relevent points, shall we?

You said we should blame the Developers for creating this blown out of the water loot economy. I AGREED with you but also noted that while they made it possible, we took it upon ourselves to take advantage of it. Just like I don't think that you treat drug addiction by arresting an addict, I don't believe you blame only the devs for a system that we used in excess(used in excess, much like any addiction, get it?).

Actually, what I asked you was do you not hold them at all accountable for this situation. Your argument that we should be either ashamed of ourselves or in some other way feeling responsible for the "economy" being what it is is just asinine. Really, my point wasn't to assign blame per se, but rather to point out that Turbine wasn't overly concerned with the economy back when they were cooling the ire of the playerbase who was upset with downtime and etcetera by giving us multiple +1 loot weekends. In fact, there were several posts decrying the +1 loot weekends and wanting something else if Turbine felt the need to make amends to the player base. Where was all this concern for the economy then?

Yes, some people took it upon themselves to take advantage of it, but others were burned out from the first two loot weekends and did something else. Why wouldn't certain playstyles take advantage of it? People who want to make a lot of money in game or have items to spread around to alts and/or friends saw it as yet another chance to captialize. To most of the playerbase there wasn't anything at all wrong with doing so, after all, it was being given to us by Turbine as a way of saying "Sorry for our mistakes and the downtime". People play a game for several reasons, faulting them for using the existing system is ridiculous. Comparing it to over-indulging in alcohol or drugs is even more ludicrous. It's arguable how negative the effect of loot runs and +1 loot weekends are, it's not arguable what the effect of drug or alcohol abuse is. In fact, speaking with you is making me want to abuse some single malt...

What I am saying in the end is that the Devs are responcible for the game they created, but we can't ignore our own responsibility for how we play it. If the economy needs fixing there is more than one party to blame and "But they made it available to me." is not an excuse.

How we play the game is our right, so long as we don't break the rules. Do you honestly expect every player of an MMO to play it in a self-moderating way out of an overarching concern for the overall health of the game? Do you approach and analyze every single thing you do in your life in the same way? We're talking about a game, something people do for fun to escape, however temporarily, real-life responsibilities that actually matter (or to reward themselves for taking care of their real-life responsibilities first), not to tend to the economy of some fictional distraction.

[MysticTheurge]

MT, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought clerics already had to pay that price? Or do the spells use only standard components and scrolls the only thing that uses that material? Or is the cost of them even cheaper than PnP would have?

Oh heck no. I'd never raise anyone in DDO if that were the case.

The cost works in D&D because everyone's in the same group and you better believe the dead guy is going to be the one actually paying the cost (when the living folks sell off his stuff to finance the Raise). In DDO, with non-static groups, the cleric would end up footing the bill 95% of the time, so I definitely understand why the spells use standard components in DDO. I'm just pointing out that the repair costs are actually fairly analogous (save that they're sometimes less expensive) than getting a Raise in D&D.

[Missing_Minds]

I noticed that the negatives were out of whack -17/-17/-13 for my saves...and will (the last one) is my lowest save.

Ah (insert random number shifted keystrokes)!!! that means they still haven't fixed the whole DOUBLE penalty for negative levels. Until they get that fixed I am 100% against them implementing this new system.

[Raithe]

Do you really think they will purposely put a change in the game that will adversely effect the player experience and cause people to leave the game. Their livelihood (Job) is directly effected by the state of the game. If the game tanks they lose their jobs. They have thought this out, as they did all the other changes. Which in my opinion benefited the game.

No offense, but this is absurd. Many of the changes that went in were done without proper analysis, and it wound up costing thousands of subscribers. There are few things more certain about the history of DDO.