Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Ciaran]

I'm using an addictive behavior in comparison to another addictive behavior. The developers provided you with an opportunity to use the system in a certain manner, you chose to use it in that manner, that manner has since caused problems in the game and so I do expect the Developers to correct that not just go, "Oops... Oh well, its this way now."

Really? This comparison doesn't fit? Both are hamster wheels and the addict(no matter the type) ends up looking for a better stronger experience, sort of like the person with the Greater X Bane looking for the Shock Greater X Bane. Yes, I know personally -many- addicts who no longer do drugs and the comparison struck me as rather appropriate.

That's just the thing...implying "addiction" for anybody who has ever done a loot run is a totally ludicrous statement. Can your mind only work in such dichotomies? I mean really, you seem to me from your statements to think people either loot run and are "addicts" or play the game in a self moderating manner and are therefore "healthy" and "reasonable".

No matter how you try to justify or spin it, comparing people who loot run (who are everybody from casual players who do it if they only have an hour to spare to people who do it 60 times in one night, every night they can, so the gamut is wide indeed) in a video game meant for entertainment to people who use drugs that damage mind and body and are used for much more the recreation is absolutely the most ridiculous, unbalanced and irresponsible thing I've heard.

You seriously need to re-evaluate your analogies, bud.

[Dariun]

You know, I understand what you're saying, but they already reduced the chance for permanent damage by half.

That's a pretty significant reduction if you ask me.

This is both true and inaccurate.

Yes, chance of permanent damage per repair has been reduced.

But, total # of repairs have been increased.

Each individual repair has a lower chance of permanent damage but the greater number of total repairs will equal more total permanent damage.

As a simple example, how often do you see damage to your Trinket item? Very rarely, if your experience is anything like mine. Now picture getting damage to it every time you die. Is your chance for permanent damage to your Trinket higher or lower in the new system?

Unless you rarely die, it is certainly higher.

[Ciaran]

How is it misbehaving? Are you talking about being able to stack 10 negative levels or is this something new?

I made a post in the appropriate topic on the Risia forums (haven't checked for feedback). Even with 5 negative levels after 5 consecutive deaths I was only getting the penalty for 60 seconds, not 300 seconds (5 minutes). I bugged it.

[moorewr]

I made a post in the appropriate topic on the Risia forums (haven't checked for feedback). Even with 5 negative levels after 5 consecutive deaths I was only getting the penalty for 60 seconds, not 300 seconds (5 minutes). I bugged it.

You get successive 60 second effects - if you examine yourself during each minute you'll see the name of the debuff changes.. scarred, marked, touched..

Now, there's something really off about the total neg. levels you receive.. look in the Risia Death feedback thread for pictures from me and Dariun. Dariun had -121 TO HIT in one screen shot.

[Dariun]

Q: If recalling for mana is acceptable, why cannot recalling for repairs be as well?

Recalling for mana is a strategy that improves a party's chance of success (I don't like it myself, but there is no denying it helps). The whole party benefits when a caster recalls. Recalling for mana is a team play.

Recalling for repairs does not improve the party's chance of success, it just lowers the chance an individual will have equipment destroyed. Recalling for repairs is self preservation.

[Missing_Minds]

Good. It should be hard to beat some if not most quest. Dungeons should not be cake walks as they are now. However I don't think the new death penalty is harsher than the old one. I think a combo of the two would be a good death penalty.
Loose EXP as well as the new penalties.

let me rephrase it then. With the new penalty, it will take specially formed parties to beat quests now with the new death penalities. A group of 1 tank, 1 rogue, 1 cleric, and 2 sorcs trying to beat mentau on elite in the pre raid won't be able to cut it. (at least not with the tatic we did last time. Their are other possiblities we'd have to look at that may work instead.)

Mind you, I'm not against changing up tatics to make things work. I like having to think things through.

[Yaga_Nub]

Things wrong with the current death penalty:

1) It is extremely distasteful to new players.
2) It is excessive for characters ranging in levels from around 8 to (level cap - 1). The level cap is increasing in Mod 6, so that band is getting larger. When you're level 19, you'd be losing 8740 XP when you die.
3) It has no effect on characters that are at the highest level of the game.

Those are three pretty large problems.

We're currently looking at ways of alleviating the permanent damage concerns with the modified system. That seems to be the biggest issue.

The first one is the only one that I don't agree should be a factor. We have all lived with it and you learn to accept it like the mobs that still move, attack, cast while paralyzed and held. It's part of our game and it should stick around.

As for #2, sure we are losing 8740 per death but the quests should be giving us 40k or higher per completion without the first time bonus so it won't make that much of a difference. If the quests aren't giving us that much xp then you, as the devs, have the power to correct the xp penalty to an appropriate number.

#3 is the only thing that should be fixed but it shouldn't be a priority over fixing things like paralyzed and held mobs moving, attacking, casting while held.

[Missing_Minds]

I disagree. Play permadeath if you are lacking for challenge.

personally, I'm getting rather sick of people spouting off that permadeath is the answer for everything. To each their own.

To me permadeath just means running harbor, tangleroot, co6, etc. over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.... I'm already sick of those quests as it is.

[NJDaniels]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

Funny thing, I was in Gianthold last night and I was jumping over the crates to the PoP quest giver, except I missed landing on them and fell between them. I waited for over a half an hour for a GM to come get me out before I got frustrated and /death. That would have cost me 60k for a BUG! How is this new system fair?

[Mercules]

That's just the thing...implying "addiction" for anybody who has ever done a loot run is a totally ludicrous statement. Can your mind only work in such dichotomies? I mean really, you seem to me from your statements to think people either loot run and are "addicts" or play the game in a self moderating manner and are therefore "healthy" and "reasonable".

No matter how you try to justify or spin it, comparing people who loot run (who are everybody from casual players who do it if they only have an hour to spare to people who do it 60 times in one night, every night they can, so the gamut is wide indeed) in a video game meant for entertainment to people who use drugs that damage mind and body and are used for much more the recreation is absolutely the most ridiculous, unbalanced and irresponsible thing I've heard.

You seriously need to re-evaluate your analogies, bud.

No... you need to go back and take them in CONTEXT not out of context.

You said we should blame the Developers for creating this blown out of the water loot economy. I AGREED with you but also noted that while they made it possible, we took it upon ourselves to take advantage of it. Just like I don't think that you treat drug addiction by arresting an addict, I don't believe you blame only the devs for a system that we used in excess(used in excess, much like any addiction, get it?).

I am not comparing loot runs to doing drugs. I am comparing us OVERDOING loot runs(in part because we were capped and the system fostered it as something to do) to drinking too much or overdoing anything else, and just like that you need to ramp the experience up every so often or you just don't get your fix, thus the complaints of poor loot tables.

What I am saying in the end is that the Devs are responcible for the game they created, but we can't ignore our own responsibility for how we play it. If the economy needs fixing there is more than one party to blame and "But they made it available to me." is not an excuse.

[Missing_Minds]

This is a pretty good point you "ZOMG this is nothing like PnP!!!" people are ignoring.

In D&D, Raise Dead requires 5,000 GP, Resurrection requires 10,000 GP and True Resurrection requires 25,000 GP.

If we're being charged about 4-6 thousand gold per death, we're getting away cheap.

MT, correct me if I'm wrong here, but I thought clerics already had to pay that price? Or do the spells use only standard components and scrolls the only thing that uses that material? Or is the cost of them even cheaper than PnP would have?

[Jondallar]

The more I read, the more I am becoming a proponent of the new changes. I want death to matter, I tire of Zergtard reckless play. I think that as long my unbound gear is not getting destroyed before each new Mod, where presumably I will be looking for the next best thing to equip so my old gear wont matter as much. Also I want gear to be worth something again. In an age of bind it or it will take perm damage, my unbound high end items will regain their value in the economy... this is especially true of weapons.

My only area of concern is the damage/deaths inflicted from learning new raids... other new content will be challanging but death will be limited with careful play. But the raids usually require at least a couple weeks...if not months to figure out, usually with numerous/excessive deaths because we are learning. The learning part is fun. I choose not to do it on Risia because I dont want to partition my hard drive so I can load and play Risia. Also I want to experience the new content with all my friends, not practice a raid before it goes live so I dont wreck my unbound gear.

I am very pleased and enthusiastic about the interaction and spread of info by Eladrin in this post. Thank you for this Eladrin.

On a side not regarding the Abbot raid - how about this for an idea... make the puzzles not manditory, but add a chest (possibly even raid loot chest) for each puzzle completed in a victory against the Abbot? Or make it so completion can happen with only 1 puzzle and for each puzzle completed increase the % raid loot dropping

[Ciaran]

Things wrong with the current death penalty:

1) It is extremely distasteful to new players.
I was a new player back when it required more XP then it currently does to level. Everybody who plays the game and has capped characters now was new at one point. I lived with it and had no problems maxing out at level 10 with that character. Why don't you have trial accounts be exempt from death penalty while being upfront that after their trial, they will take death penalties? UO did this, with the option to opt out. Basically all your gear stayed on you and you couldn't be targetted by PK's, I think. Once you gained a certain % in a skill or enough time passed, whichever happened first, the newbie period was over. Alternately you could expand this to 10 days or something like that for new full accounts.

2) It is excessive for characters ranging in levels from around 8 to (level cap - 1). The level cap is increasing in Mod 6, so that band is getting larger. When you're level 19, you'd be losing 8740 XP when you die.
8,740 XP? That's it? Considering how much XP quests of that level should be giving as their base, I don't see the problem.

3) It has no effect on characters that are at the highest level of the game.
Well, aside from arguments for earning the right by maxing out a character, I'm actually in favor of death still stinging capped characters...but not like this, not how you've implemented it. I can live with the Dolurrh penalty (especially if you don't fix it to last for five minutes after five deaths, lol!) but the item damage and repair costs have got to be seriously reconsidered.

Those are three pretty large problems.

Agreed, but your proposed solutions seem to be creating even greater problems, and more of them.

We're currently looking at ways of alleviating the permanent damage concerns with the modified system. That seems to be the biggest issue.

Thank you, that will help, depending on where you go with it. Also a big issue that I'd say is equal with this one is the cost for item repair. I've played for 1.6 years and I rarely have over 100k PP on any one character. It's good to know you're at least looking at it.

Thanks for the feedback Eladrin.

[Serpent]

*sprays you all with a water bottle* no fighting in Eladrin's thread gang. It doesn't make his or my life any easier when we're trying to understand your thoughts and feelings if we're having to sort through

"idiot..."
"moron..."
"stupid..."
"whining..."
"crybaby..."
"loony..."
"brainless..."

and so on. Feedback good! Insults, not good

Eladrin just told us that the feedback is useless. That the proposed plan is near 100% concrete. So whatever.

[moorewr]

Funny thing, I was in Gianthold last night and I was jumping over the crates to the PoP quest giver, except I missed landing on them and fell between them. I waited for over a half an hour for a GM to come get me out before I got frustrated and /death. That would have cost me 60k for a BUG! How is this new system fair?

Wrong cost -- 6k gp, not 60.

Also, it appears you don't suffer item damage from death in a public area (my Risia experience -- can someone confirm this?)

Why did you /death as things stand, when you could have asked for a teleport in /general? Because the current death penalty means nothing to you.

[Serpent]

I can show you the door if you don't want to wait for the Mod.

I posted a plan for death on page 48. No one commented. This thread has become more about fighting. Eladrin you said you liked MT's idea. What about mine? Are you just reading his?

[Yaga_Nub]

The more I read, the more I am becoming a proponent of the new changes. I want death to matter, I tire of Zergtard reckless play. I think that as long my unbound gear is not getting destroyed before each new Mod, where presumably I will be looking for the next best thing to equip so my old gear wont matter as much. Also I want gear to be worth something again. In an age of bind it or it will take perm damage, my unbound high end items will regain their value in the economy... this is especially true of weapons.

What have you done to our Jondallar you impostor!?!

[Serpent]

Um... the typical D&D death penalty is usually, "Wow... sorry about that. Did you want to make a new character?"

The typical penalty in PnP depends on your DM. Not a good comparison.

[Ciaran]

You get successive 60 second effects - if you examine yourself during each minute you'll see the name of the debuff changes.. scarred, marked, touched..

Now, there's something really off about the total neg. levels you receive.. look in the Risia Death feedback thread for pictures from me and Dariun. Dariun had -121 TO HIT in one screen shot.

No, I went from having Owned by Dolurrh to having nothing at all. After five negative levels I was at 50-something HP. When the 60 second timer expired, I went back to my full HP. I was expecting to see one timer expire and a new one pop up for the next lowest level of debuff, but that didn't happen.

Does it matter that I was standing in the Gianthold next to ogre bartender (in other words, an inn)?

I noticed that the negatives were out of whack -17/-17/-13 for my saves...and will (the last one) is my lowest save.

[Dariun]

My only area of concern is the damage/deaths inflicted from learning new raids... other new content will be challanging but death will be limited with careful play. But the raids usually require at least a couple weeks...if not months to figure out, usually with numerous/excessive deaths because we are learning.

Only naked spell casters will be permitted in new content.

Once they figure everything out they will tour guide the rest of the populace.