Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[moorewr]

Regarding permanent damage -->

I would lose my reservations about item damage if there was some grind that allowed you to use a vendor to repair permanent damage. It could be a pain, like 200 bronze tokens per point at the Zawabi repair vendor, but give us a way to keep treasured unbound items up to snuff if we want to spend the time collecting unobtanium for the vendor.

[Warrax23]

Ok I guess it seems people aren't really understanding what's really gonna happen.

Say you do Tempest Spine, You go beat on some Black Guards with your decent weapon (use your imagination) I'll use my +3 shocking burst great axe of maiming since I'm using a barb for this mission. I get item wear just from hiting those guys, fine I understand it. Now I die once because sometimes that happens in the mission, I must have got destructed opps forgot my DW. Ok got rezed now I'm good to go... look more blackguards, *warning your +3 shocking burst great axe is worn* Dang better use something else... how bout this +3 holy burst... ok back in the fight oh great a beholder, ok swing away... oh dead again.. ok np get rezed by the cleric... What my greataxe is now broken? how did that happen it was in my backpack... great now there is almost a 100% chance of perment damage...

So do I bind it? I know I don't want too since it's a level 10 weapon and I know I'll get better... ok time to do the dragon raid 100+ times until I get the SoS which is bound and not have to worry... put the axe on the ah once ya get the SoS... what did any of this solve? Nothing it's just gonna make the ah cluttered with broken weapons that we're gonna have to be extra careful of what we buy.

And who says the economy is broken? Just because there are some gear too high priced doesn't mean it's the economy, go buy some bread at a convienent store and tell me how much it is as opposed to a supermarket... if you don't want to quest to get your gear and have to use the AH for it because it's convient expect to PAY FOR IT.

[parvo]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

Eladrin,
I like the changes. DDO is a persistent world and if players want to have an impact on the world, the world gets to have an impact on them.

But one has to wonder why something like this wasn't in the game from the start? As a designer/developer I'd follow this rule; When in doubt about character/world balance, start off hard and if it doesn't work, lighten up from there. Obviously balancing from easy to hard has more business risk.

[stockwizard5]

Man, I'd love to see that data.

Well, specifically, I'd love to see you guys hand out a special award for the toon with the Most Deaths.

Come on-- who is it?

Its Drew - hands (and arms and torso and legs and ...) down

[Ciaran]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

I would suggest that data is most likely skewed, for reasons others have already stated. In my job I have to create, defend and make decisions based on data metrics so I understand both how important metrics are to disproving knee-jerk reactions and establishing reality over perception as well as how easily averages and whatnot can be skewed when certain things are introduced or unaccounted for.

Did you ask the people who stated "The XP debt system is significantly limiting my ability to progress my character" how often THEY were dying? It's all fine and good to make a statement such as "How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me." when it comes to defending a change that a majority of the unique posts in this massive thread have seem to dislike. I haven't seen you say that you applied this same question to those who decried the XP penalty. It seems like you are pushing it back on us by basically saying "This new system isn't going to affect you as negatively as you're thinking, because this data (that is unavailable for us to look at) says that you aren't dying that much".

Did you apply the same standard and try to see how much the people, especially the new players who were complaining about XP loss were dying? What did that data tell you? Or did you just go by a consistent complaint that was presented on the exit interviews? One would hope that you would.

I understand that this wasn't the sole reason for the change, but I really think that the current system needs to be toned down or dropped altogether. In game money is harder for people to come by than you'd think, and we shouldn't feel forced to loot run and sell items, even to the vendors to be able to afford our repair builds.

I think Dworkin's long post a few pages back really brought up some good points as well. Please reconsider this.

[kruggar]

Ok I guess it seems people aren't really understanding what's really gonna happen.

Say you do Tempest Spine, You go beat on some Black Guards with your decent weapon (use your imagination) I'll use my +3 shocking burst great axe of maiming since I'm using a barb for this mission. I get item wear just from hiting those guys, fine I understand it. Now I die once because sometimes that happens in the mission, I must have got destructed opps forgot my DW. Ok got rezed now I'm good to go... look more blackguards, *warning your +3 shocking burst great axe is worn* Dang better use something else... how bout this +3 holy burst... ok back in the fight oh great a beholder, ok swing away... oh dead again.. ok np get rezed by the cleric... What my greataxe is now broken? how did that happen it was in my backpack... great now there is almost a 100% chance of perment damage...

So do I bind it? I know I don't want too since it's a level 10 weapon and I know I'll get better... ok time to do the dragon raid 100+ times until I get the SoS which is bound and not have to worry... put the axe on the ah once ya get the SoS... what did any of this solve? Nothing it's just gonna make the ah cluttered with broken weapons that we're gonna have to be extra careful of what we buy.

And who says the economy is broken? Just because there are some gear too high priced doesn't mean it's the economy, go buy some bread at a convienent store and tell me how much it is as opposed to a supermarket... if you don't want to quest to get your gear and have to use the AH for it because it's convient expect to PAY FOR IT.

if i understood right only items equiped will take dmg per death.. the items in your bag will not..

[Ustice]

Going back to perception vs. averages, I think that part of this can be explained by the character CLASS. For instance, I was running Inferno of the Damned, and we had a caster that had around less than 100 HP. He was an effective caster, but he died several times by just getting one-shotted. Now this is certainly mitigated in some ways by using better tactics, but the people that have low HP have a MUCH lower margin of error. My guess is that you are seeing a higher death rate among casters, and a lower one with tanks, and that is averaging out. Add to that that you will hear more from those that die more, and it sort of explains the issue, I think.

Here is a problem though... If the casters will start having to pay a higher repair cost than the other classes (due to a higher death rate), and they are already having to pay a higher cost due to scrolls/wands, also given that the fact that repair cost is going down (in the favor of tanks due to lower item wear cost), this sounds like a problematic situation.

[Yukiko]

I ask people to remember the dammage upon death only applys to equipemt items.

[Mercules]

Wrong, Ron. I want you to show me just ONE instance when a lvl 12 took more or less of an XP hit than any other level 12.

My level 12 took a MUCH larger hit every time they died... compared to when people were level capped at 12 and dying.

[Eladrin]

But one has to wonder why something like this wasn't in the game from the start? As a designer/developer I'd follow this rule; When in doubt about character/world balance, start off hard and if it doesn't work, lighten up from there. Obviously balancing from easy to hard has more business risk.

Good question. We chose to have an XP debt penalty originally, and feel that XP loss is much harsher than the proposed monetary penalty, except at cap where previous XP debt didn't really matter much.

But since we're increasing the level cap, nobody will be at cap when we introduce this mechanic.

I see it mostly as "Pay a few hundred plat instead of losing several thousand XP."

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Going back to perception vs. averages, I think that part of this can be explained by the character CLASS. For instance, I was running Inferno of the Damned, and we had a caster that had around less than 100 HP. He was an effective caster, but he died several times by just getting one-shotted. Now this is certainly mitigated in some ways by using better tactics, but the people that have low HP have a MUCH lower margin of error. My guess is that you are seeing a higher death rate among casters, and a lower one with tanks, and that is averaging out. Add to that that you will hear more from those that die more, and it sort of explains the issue, I think.

Here is a problem though... If the casters will start having to pay a higher repair cost than the other classes (due to a higher death rate), and they are already having to pay a higher cost due to scrolls/wands, also given that the fact that repair cost is going down (in the favor of tanks due to lower item wear cost), this sounds like a problematic situation.

Add to that the fact their equipment will be broken faster if it gets perma damage because it tends to have less durability than fighter equipment.

It most certainly did not.


Doubtful. The cost of repairing 10% damaged level 1 items is trivial (as in a handful of gold). And that's before the change to scale the damage levels based on number of deaths. If I understand correctly, you won't even take equipment damage until you hit level 2, and then it's only 1%, big whoop. And again, that's before the change to MT/Arko's system, which is going to make it even lower than that.

Not to defend the system but you don't get the 10% damage at L1. In my testing on Risia the cost/perm damage was trivial at L1-5 and was significant at L12-14 (oddly I didn't have anything to test with in between )

Only if you die. Some of us don't view death as a strategy or necessity and don't die that often.

That's good, lets keep the game just for the elite and permadeathers

Is that using the expert repair in the desert? She's the only repair I use and her services are quite expensive. By the way I hope she'll drop her prices on bound items?

El's prices are based on the normal repair costs, not the desert. But you are right, people pay more for her to avoid perm damage. For items that can't be permanently damaged it makes no sense to charge a premium for her services.

[stockwizard5]

I see it mostly as "Pay a few hundred plat instead of losing several thousand XP."

I have no problem with "a few hundred plat" ... it's the relics - THE RELICS! Take a look at the handful of idiots that are still trying to decifer the Abbot - Dragon Armor abounds. Are we really looking for another deterent to running this raid? Is the raid itself not deterent enough?

[tekn0mage]

I would suggest that data is most likely skewed, for reasons others have already stated. In my job I have to create, defend and make decisions based on data metrics so I understand both how important metrics are to disproving knee-jerk reactions and establishing reality over perception as well as how easily averages and whatnot can be skewed when certain things are introduced or unaccounted for.

Did you ask the people who stated "The XP debt system is significantly limiting my ability to progress my character" how often THEY were dying? It's all fine and good to make a statement such as "How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me." when it comes to defending a change that a majority of the unique posts in this massive thread have seem to dislike. I haven't seen you say that you applied this same question to those who decried the XP penalty. It seems like you are pushing it back on us by basically saying "This new system isn't going to affect you as negatively as you're thinking, because this data (that is unavailable for us to look at) says that you aren't dying that much".

Did you apply the same standard and try to see how much the people, especially the new players who were complaining about XP loss were dying? What did that data tell you? Or did you just go by a consistent complaint that was presented on the exit interviews? One would hope that you would.

I understand that this wasn't the sole reason for the change, but I really think that the current system needs to be toned down or dropped altogether. In game money is harder for people to come by than you'd think, and we shouldn't feel forced to loot run and sell items, even to the vendors to be able to afford our repair builds.

I think Dworkin's long post a few pages back really brought up some good points as well. Please reconsider this.

Another well-stated post from another unique visitor to this massive thread.

There's far too many new people joining up and stating opposition than the same 3 or 4 people camping out in this thread rebutting every single point. Eladrin, you can't do this. This is managing by the exception... and not the rule.

This idea of death being "trivial" only comes from the purist players who, even of their own admission don't even have level-capped toons and who hardly ever raid. You cannot continue to listen to their point of view or allow it to steer you into what you perceive is a lack of punishment.

Why don't you sit back, take a deep breath and ask yourself what you can spend the next two months on to make the game more FUN for people? Instead of, how can I make things more challenging, how can I make things more punitive... etc.

Two entirely different approaches and caving in the to cries of the purist players will only skew your perception of the game that it's "too easy".

[Mercules]

People hate taxes. That is the reason for the gold fixation.

No... Some people hate taxes, you know the ones that complain about crappy roads, poor school systems, and non-public owned utilities and then vote down any increase in their taxes that is slated to go to those areas. Others of us have a clue.

My mom wants to know why she should have to pay full property tax on her lake place since she doesn't live there year round and her kids wouldn't benefit from the school system and she wouldn't benefit from the roads being plowed properly. Currently she gets a break. So, people who live in the area can't afford the taxes associated with owning a house on the lake as the cost of living is high compared to the average wage of the area. My mother gets a "secondary home" tax break which allows her the opportunity of having a VERY expensive house on a lake and pay the same amount as the person up the road off the lake in a less nice house. She sees this as fair. I live here, but can't afford to live here. You don't, but get a tax break?

[Dariun]

I'm not awesome. I'm just careful and mostly play self-healers. As a general rule, I try to use strategy and party planning rather than individually throwing ourselves at a creature to win a battle of attrition. Teamwork, ftw!

I think putting myself between the monster and the cleric or the wizard qualifies as teamwork -- but it also gets me killed.

[tekn0mage]

Good question. We chose to have an XP debt penalty originally, and feel that XP loss is much harsher than the proposed monetary penalty, except at cap where previous XP debt didn't really matter much.

But since we're increasing the level cap, nobody will be at cap when we introduce this mechanic.

I see it mostly as "Pay a few hundred plat instead of losing several thousand XP."

Eladrin,

couldn't you just remove permanent damage from the game then? Seriously, think out of the box...

Keeps the plat sink in the game, keeps death penalizing and keeps the loot-factor intact.

You can't discount the idea because it serves everyone's common goal.

[Ron]

Wrong, Ron. I want you to show me just ONE instance when a lvl 12 took more or less of an XP hit than any other level 12. Or level 13, a lvl 5? how about a lvl 9. You can't can you. It hit everyone equally without caring about race, monetary worth, how long they had been playing or what have you. Now the penalty per level may have been curved badly, but it treated everyone equally.

No, your statement was that the XP debt hit everyone equally. That is absolutely untrue. It hit character levels 1-9 somewhat, 10-13 very hard, and 14 not at all. Tell me how that's equal. Yes, it hits all level 13s exactly the same, but not everyone in the game is level 13, so that's a pretty bad metric.

The worst problem with the XP debt penalty, in my view, is that is was absolutely meaningless to the level 14s. If it wasn't for that fact, I would have been fine with keeping it, as unfair as it is. Having no DP at the cap is just begging for players to use death as a tactic, as has been discussed ad naseum. The results are a lot of high end equipment being dumped on the AH and to lower characters (because if there is no DP, there is no risk, and who gives a dang if you die 43 times killing the Abbot, as long as you get the CHEST afterword!). And that's a bad place for the game economy to be (it all comes back to the economy, doesn't it? ).

[Prinstoni]

Going back to perception vs. averages, I think that part of this can be explained by the character CLASS. For instance, I was running Inferno of the Damned, and we had a caster that had around less than 100 HP. He was an effective caster, but he died several times by just getting one-shotted. Now this is certainly mitigated in some ways by using better tactics, but the people that have low HP have a MUCH lower margin of error. My guess is that you are seeing a higher death rate among casters, and a lower one with tanks, and that is averaging out. Add to that that you will hear more from those that die more, and it sort of explains the issue, I think.

Here is a problem though... If the casters will start having to pay a higher repair cost than the other classes (due to a higher death rate), and they are already having to pay a higher cost due to scrolls/wands, also given that the fact that repair cost is going down (in the favor of tanks due to lower item wear cost), this sounds like a problematic situation.

I don't die very often. The last time I died was trying to get to an Abbott Puzzle, then in the Abbott Puzzle, and then again when he cast inferno. However, I DISPISE THE NEW SYSTEM!

I want the devs to STOP changing existing content, STOP fixing things that are not broken, and concentrate on new content.

[eaten by cube] this is the reason people are leaving the game. This stupid NON D&D death penalty goes into play and I am serious, it will be my last straw and I cancel my account.

[Mercules]

Why don't you sit back, take a deep breath and ask yourself what you can spend the next two months on to make the game more FUN for people? Instead of, how can I make things more challenging, how can I make things more punitive... etc.

For many challenge = fun so saying to make it fun instead of challenging is ignoring something. In fact I am pretty sure that if this game offered little to no challenge there wouldn't be a game right now.

Two entirely different approaches and caving in the to cries of the purist players will only skew your perception of the game that it's "too easy".

People Solo raids intended for 8-12 people. Yes that is an extreme example, but the fact that it can be done is an indicator that something is off.

[Hendrik]

I don't die very often. The last time I died was trying to get to an Abbott Puzzle, then in the Abbott Puzzle, and then again when he cast inferno. However, I DISPISE THE NEW SYSTEM!

I want the devs to STOP changing existing content, STOP fixing things that are not broken, and concentrate on new content.

The Devs must be a real bunch of idiots to not see that this is the reason people are leaving the game. This stupid NON D&D death penalty goes into play and I am serious, it will be my last straw and I cancel my account.

[eaten by cube]

I think the DEV's should listen to those that ARE playing and not threatening to quit of they don't get their way.