Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Dariun]

Come on-- who is it?

Probably my rogue .

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Man, I'd love to see that data.

Well, specifically, I'd love to see you guys hand out a special award for the toon with the Most Deaths.

Come on-- who is it?

lol...ooo I can see it now, a published death list. Permadeathers could see who has cheated when no one was looking And I'd so build a char just to make the "most deaths" list.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Yeah, but you have to be careful not to discourage people from playing content.

There are already some quests people avoid due to poor risk/reward (e.g., Freshen the Air, Swiped Signet). In a game where "lack of content" is the single most common complaint artificially reducing content by moving more quests into the "poor risk/reward" category is unwise.

The optionals for Ghost and Fleshmakers are kind of like this. Most people I know that go for those do it knowing they might die if the group they are in doesn't hold together perfectly. I know when jumping into the FM pit it usually is a "well we are done, we might as well try the optional" and if you get it great, if you die, no big loss. Now there will be a loss. I'm not sure its worth jumpin in that pit anymore.

[Raithe]

I'm not particularly for or against the proposed death penalty, but I find myself wondering what the actual purpose of it is supposed to be. As it currently exists and as it is proposed, death does not provide a failure condition. Characters can be raised and cured, or they can rest at a shrine which resets every so often in normal difficulty quests. If the entire party dies, they can recall from the instance, repair and heal, then continue the instance where they left off. Two or three sets of gear can be stored in the five backpacks that characters pack around, so item damage isn't going to generate a failure condition either. It does not seem, then, that the proposed death mechanics are failure mechanics.

Another option is that the death penalties have been changed to promote teamwork and better gameplay by limiting "negative play experiences" caused by players who don't care much about death. The problem with the new mechanics in this case is that they are nowhere near severe enough to change behavior. Just as in real life, players who don't care about death (or it's simulation) are pretty difficult to control. Usually changing such behavior is only going to be achieved by removing the players from the game voluntarily.

The only other option I can think of (other than the roleplaying purpose, which I know wasn't considered) is death penalties in this game are supposed to be part of the rules of economics. This would suggest that the purpose of the game is to get rich, and dying is supposed to be an expense that makes becoming rich more difficult. If this is the case, then the current game is in a state of utter disfunction, and trying to fix it is going to require several more drastic changes.

It would be interesting to find out what the intended purposes are, as it also speaks to any turns in direction the game might take.

[Mercules]

I know that my Death/quest ratio has gone up lately. I think I have an explanation for why.

Instead of playing with 3-4 friends I have been lately playing with maxed out PuG. Instead of 3 level 7s taking on Gwylan's and using tactics it has been a level 8, a level 7, and 4 level 5s taking on Gwylan's and using "Charge" as a tactic. I won't try to blame my deaths on anyone, as I ultimately can make the decision of when things have gone bad and where I can go to get out of them, but I tend to stick to it if the rest of the party hasn't pulled back and there are a few people who just don't seem to care if they die.

I do know that with my almost capped characters, this is more prevalent as I am fairly often with capped characters and their blase view of, "Just throw me a rez when the firewall runs out and I'll throw up more." death sometimes causes agro to shift from their dead corpse to me when I really shouldn't have it through actions of my own.

Doing never before seen content often results in LESS death for my friends and myself. It's usually the overconfident, "We can handle this next group." or "There are no tra... *BOOM* Oh, was that this hallway?" moments that cause us more trouble and in quests we don't know well we take small bites, check for traps, and use much better tactics. In some of the well known quests we get complacent and just outright screw up.

[Dane_McArdy]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

Well, now you let the cat out of the bag! You offically told everyone that you know just what is going on, and just what people are really doing in game~!

[Hendrik]

Yeah, but you have to be careful not to discourage people from playing content.

There are already some quests people avoid due to poor risk/reward (e.g., Freshen the Air, Swiped Signet). In a game where "lack of content" is the single most common complaint artificially reducing content by moving more quests into the "poor risk/reward" category is unwise.

I agree!

But we cannot assume a reasonable rate of success if a grp of L9's are taking on a L13, for example, Quest.

Are people dying a lot due to taking on quest much harder or by self induced factors?

Are people basing the amount of deaths by taking on a lvl appropriate quest?

Seems kind of natural to have a small amount of death for taking on lvl appropriate quest vs taking on something thats over your head. If I go into a quest that is several levels over me, the chance for death should be higher. That is a chance I take. My choice. Risk vs reward.

[Dariun]

The problem with the new mechanics in this case is that they are nowhere near severe enough to change behavior. Just as in real life, players who don't care about death (or it's simulation) are pretty difficult to control. Usually changing such behavior is only going to be achieved by removing the players from the game voluntarily.

Yes, it also introduces more griefing potential in the game. Anyone can grief a party by luring in a bunch of monsters and initiating a tough fight no one is ready for, and healers can especially grief individuals or parties by letting them die. Likewise, fighters can grief arcanes by not trying to pull aggro off them.

I'm sure more creative people than me will come up with more interesting ways to cause 10% damage to all 14 items worn by 1 or more of their party members.

Fun fun fun.

[kengsxr]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

you missed my point, I currently have several capped toons, and trade the ONE banisher, one smiter, and one vorpal I have between them depending on what quests I am running, now, to keep my good stuff I have to bind it, that means I must aquire another banisher, another smiter, another vorpal, another +5 mith bp, etc so I can keep them. Being that the drop rate of these for a player like myself is low, I will have to purchase them, as will many others. This will vastly increase the market for plat/item farmers.
Again I will say.....It aint broke, why are you fixing it? If you are trying to copy WOW, you need much more content, not copying their systems. If I wanted to play WOW, I would, the reason I (and many others) play DDO is that it is different from the other systems, if you make it the same, seeee yaaaa.

[Hendrik]

The optionals for Ghost and Fleshmakers are kind of like this. Most people I know that go for those do it knowing they might die if the group they are in doesn't hold together perfectly. I know when jumping into the FM pit it usually is a "well we are done, we might as well try the optional" and if you get it great, if you die, no big loss. Now there will be a loss. I'm not sure its worth jumpin in that pit anymore.

Exaclty!

[Abysom]

Haven't chimed in here yet but I can honestly say I die quite often. 99% of the time its me being in the wrong place at the wrong time. My chraracters just have incredibly bad luck.

[Wildseed]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

It's not that I die often, it's that the potential goes up when running with unknowns. Now running the new content on Risia my wizard died about 5 or 6 times... because of the new negative level (which I don't mind) and her scepter broke (that I do mind)

My problem is not that right now I die a lot. My problem is that if I'm not the cleric or can't control absolutely when I receive a heal then I will be panicking the minute my health drops, and since my wizard only has 10 base con... she doesn't have much health to begin with. So potentially if I get in the wrong PUG (which is why I will give them up if this change goes live) then I end up dying 10 or more times. When playing my wizard I expect to die at least twice per quest. If it doesn't happen, great! If it does all I lose is exp that I can get back... Now we're talking about items and perma damage that I can't get back. That is unacceptable. Potency 6 items don't grow on trees and I surely don't want to bind it. Something might happen tomorrow to make me want to reroll my character. If that happens I have to delete a GREAT item with her that I can't easily replace? geeesh

[kruggar]

carry potions

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Note my clerics name in my sig.

I suggest the donations start now...

Guildies included.

No donations, no hjeels....oh oh you just died...that'll cost ya.

Donations start at 20000 gold per quest. Believe me, if ya dont cough up it'll cost ya much more.

[kruggar]

good ideia i will create a item insurance fee with my cleric...

[Hendrik]

Note my clerics name in my sig.

I suggest the donations start now...

Guildies included.

No donations, no hjeels....oh oh you just died...that'll cost ya.

Donations start at 20000 gold per quest. Believe me, if ya dont cough up it'll cost ya much more.

Hehe

Just charge per Heal/Rez/Raise scroll used.

Ooops, guess you should not have accepted that Raise in a trap huh? Oh well, 700pp. Thank you, come again....

[Taojeff]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

They just like to complain, you have not noticed, huh?

Two things will come of this:

1. People's play style might improve.
2. People WILL complain

[kruggar]

charge buffs?!

hmm i think i need to create table of prices..

want a buff, pay for it hehe

[bellack]

I think he's a farmer Ok everyone, send your twigs to Eladrin!




I think its spotty El. As you hint at, I'm sure that if you ran that average through a distribution analysis you would find it was far from normally distributed.

Sometimes you can run for days without a death, and then you get in a pop/ghost run that should be a brease but things go wrong and you wipe twice at the end boss.

There is also the trail blazer syndrom for new quests, but that one is as you would expect.

I've been in plenty of old quests where there weren't "experts" leading the way. My first pass at the Vons resulted in huge multiples deaths because I was mostly running pugs at the time and managed to get with a "new" group who didn't know anything about the quests for each of Von1-3.

It's those type of days where death sux and where this would be further annoyance. Clearly people are dying enough to be upset under the current system or the xp debt thing wouldn't be on your radar

Frankly I perfer running through a dungeon with a group that has never been in it before. Tends to be a lot more fun and challanging. I hate the old 'Tour Guide' syndrom.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Exaclty!

I guess that really is the difference of opinion here. I feel that failing the optional/mission is suffient penalty to create the challenge, you think that's not enough and we need to be beaten up beyond failing.

From my point of view, that additional beating up just isn't necessary to make me feel good about succeeding in the mission. Additional beating up lowers the fun value for me.

I suspect (and I don't want to put words in your mouth) that to you the higher risk makes for a sweeter victory.

Just different outlooks to what a game should be I doubt either of us will convert the other on this point since its pesonal preference....