Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Mercules]

and one could argue the same, by saying want pnp style play with a really harsh death, go play pnp, or nwn without saving while you play

We already pointed out it works both ways... redundancy is good in a system, not an argument.

[Wulf_Ratbane]

The actual reality is that I repair items constantly and don't have a single one with more than 5 points of permanent damage unless it has been used since I first started playing on every character I've played. That item has more points of damage.

That's pretty much been my experience since launch.

The only item I have ever had break is my Starter Light Mace (or some other ooze-bashing throwaway).

I don't feel pinched by the current death penalties, but then I don't really die a lot (yes, I am naturally death averse, despite not feeling pinched by it), so I guess I don't have a dog in this fight.

Until all my stuff starts breaking, I suppose.

XP loss does not deter me. Cash drain does not deter me. Losing items to permanent damage would not make me any more death averse than I already am except to really **** me off when it happens. I'd go from annoyed and inconvenienced to really ****ed.

I could live with Eladrin's proposal, I suppose, as it would apparently do exactly what it is designed to do: Get me to bind a lot of gear and take it out of circulation.

That's the end result of the proposal, regardless of whether or not it is the announced or intended result.

I predict that a lot of players will leave.

[Mercules]

How truly prevalent are all those Smiters, Vorpals, Disruptors, Paralyzers that many of the most vocal on here insist that everyone and their mother has ten of each gathering dust in the bank??

I think you will find some of us are not talking about the power 5 weapons, but the +1 Flaming Longsword your Fighter, Paladin, Elven Rogue, and Bard all used at 1st level before you sold it on the AH for a profit. That seemed to be where Eladrin's post was going.

I am so the opposite of a loot ***** it's funny and I have several Paralyzers and Banishers as well as a couple Disruptors.

[Yaga_Nub]

......
In this thread Eladrin has talked to us about the death penalty, and, separate from that, he has talked to us about how the DDO "economy" works. They're kind of related because some of the changes to the economy (reduced permanent damage, bound items take no permanent damage, can bind your own items) have been made as a result of changes to the Death Penalty. But it doesn't seem to me as though the economy was, in any way, the driving force behind changing the death penalty.

MT, I don't think E ever said it was THE driving force but that it was A driving force.

[Eladrin]

MT, I don't think E ever said it was THE driving force but that it was A driving force.

Any economic benefits (other than slightly reducing the amount of coin in the game) are a side effect, not at all the primary motive.

The primary motive is "change the death penalty to a cash and debuff based one, in a manner that scales well with level and playstyle". We actively aren't seeking to permanently destroy your stuff, otherwise we wouldn't have reduced permanent damage rates.

[Mercules]

"most" huh... you have that scientifically. Funny how both sides think they are the "most".

On your actual point, not wanting overly punative penalties is not the same as saying that someone wants a godmode/cheat button.

I used most on purpose. We can all -claim- most and no one has any evidence to back it up, ergo it should actually say, "How I play."

I also used an exaggeration, a bit like how the person I responded to exaggerated that I would choose to penalize myself in a way that only harms me and doesn't work to bring any balance to the game. Perma-deathers are self regulating, but the game still needs some mechanic to make death a poor option in nearly every case.

A wisely written article I once read stated that "If there is no chance for your players to fail, then there is no incentive for them to try." Death should actually be a failure, not a means to an end. Yes you can fail quests in this game, but really you just run them again and suddenly failure erased. So Death should be one of those failure points.

[GrayOldDruid]

I think you will find some of us are not talking about the power 5 weapons, but the +1 Flaming Longsword your Fighter, Paladin, Elven Rogue, and Bard all used at 1st level before you sold it on the AH for a profit. That seemed to be where Eladrin's post was going.

I am so the opposite of a loot ***** it's funny and I have several Paralyzers and Banishers as well as a couple Disruptors.

Oh... well, I sent my 1st level fighter a +1 Kopesh... but still not a lot of uber-items...

So, does this mean nobody is going to give me a +2 Paralyzing Composite Longbow of Pure Good ?? ( lol... )

I am very willing to wait and see what the REAL damage to weapons is going to be... glad they are looking at toning it down from that 10% every death.... Still if you repair often, I don't think it will destroy an item in a week.... unless you just die an awful lot for some unknown reason.
My max-death in any quest has been 5.... and I rarely make 3 deaths... often not even one.

I am still on the side of "Thank goodness no more XP loss" XP is something you can never get back... sure you can earn more to replace it, but then it is truly LOST XP. I much prefer a 'sickness' and a bit of temporary item damage... all temporary and fixable with some gold.
I have played many games where you lost 1/2 your money and had to run naked back through the mobs that killed you to get your equipment off of your 'body' - and the new 'penalty' is MUCH better than that.

[binnsr]

I think you will find some of us are not talking about the power 5 weapons, but the +1 Flaming Longsword your Fighter, Paladin, Elven Rogue, and Bard all used at 1st level before you sold it on the AH for a profit. That seemed to be where Eladrin's post was going.

I am so the opposite of a loot ***** it's funny and I have several Paralyzers and Banishers as well as a couple Disruptors.

/agreed .. this could spell the end for all those +1 flaming longswords that get passed around the guild.. We've got equipment in our guild that I'd say has been on at least 30 characters by now.

And I'm the same way about looting as you are -- most of my 'uber' gear was given to me, but I've still managed to accumulate a decent pile of nice **** on my own (i.e. both of my vorpals were quest rewards (and exotics on the characters that had that proficiency!)). I think I have 5 (maybe 6) +6 stat items among my 4 capped characters. Even without flagrant loot whoring, it all tends to pile up over time. I can't think of more than two or three times when I've seen the ransack message in the 18 months I've been playing since headstart.

[kengsxr]

Any economic benefits (other than slightly reducing the amount of coin in the game) are a side effect, not at all the primary motive.

The primary motive is "change the death penalty to a cash and debuff based one, in a manner that scales well with level and playstyle". We actively aren't seeking to permanently destroy your stuff, otherwise we wouldn't have reduced permanent damage rates.

so I was right, you are , intentionally or not, making an even larger market for plat farmers.

Please listen to the people playing the game, the system is not broken, if you fix it, you may be out of a job soon. (due to the end of the game)

[Eladrin]

so I was right, you are , intentionally or not, making an even larger market for plat farmers.

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

[jjflanigan]

so I was right, you are , intentionally or not, making an even larger market for plat farmers.

Please listen to the people playing the game, the system is not broken, if you fix it, you may be out of a job soon. (due to the end of the game)

People don't buy from the plat farmers because they don't have enough cash to continue in the "day to day" playing of the game. They buy from them because they see a +5 uber longsword of awesomeness on the AH for a price they can't afford and they "must have it!!!!"

If you run a quest with 3 chests, you could die ~5 times and still not *lose* any plat. If it has 3 chests and you only die once, you still made a good amount of cash going forward.

[Yaga_Nub]

Any economic benefits (other than slightly reducing the amount of coin in the game) are a side effect, not at all the primary motive.

The primary motive is "change the death penalty to a cash and debuff based one, in a manner that scales well with level and playstyle". We actively aren't seeking to permanently destroy your stuff, otherwise we wouldn't have reduced permanent damage rates.

Well I wasn't implying that it was the primary motive. I was trying to clarify what you had posted here:

With no means of removing items from the economy, everything sticks around forever.

That may seem good, but it devalues every object and over time it creates a glut of high powered magic items that slowly filters down to lower levels. All gear is essentially "rented" for the period of time you use it, after which you'll pass it off to someone else, probably for approximately how much you acquired it for. (Likely a little bit less, due to the ever-increasing number of the items in circulation.)

In the end, everyone "borrows" things from the Auction House and returns them there once they're done with the item, and we end up in a very bad state where too many items are in the economy.


I can give honest insight into the way things work, or people can try to trap me in my words. Your choice.

Item Wear on death is primarily a monetary cost to dying, that very well reflects how well-off a character is. The super-twinked level six character gets charged more than a normal level six character, but the costs shouldn't be a significant burden to either.

It's not actually intended to permanently destroy your things, nor is it meant to get you to bind your things. If it was, then we wouldn't have cut the permanent damage rates, or we'd force-bind everything magical and remove permanent damage entirely. There are several lines of conversation going on in this thread, and the one I responded to was a request to remove permanent damage entirely. I was explaining that we could, if everything bound. Permanent damage exists to remove items to prevent the catastrophic meltdown of the economy that I describe at the top of this post. If items essentially couldn't be traded, it wouldn't be needed.

We're not doing that, though. We're trying to offer you the choice of the two systems. Tradable items that take permanent damage over time, or untradable items that don't... Except we're giving you control of which one you want on an item for item basis, and allow you to switch to the second pretty much at will.

Since you mentioned the economic aspects of it a couple of different times, i was assuming that a motive, or a driving motive since most motives could be seen as drivers of behavoir, was the economy.

Permanent damage is already a fact in the game. I have lots of stuff that has permanent damage and I am very quick to repair as often as I can. For me this is a non-factor and most people are making to big a deal out of this..... until it goes live. We need to see how this will play out first. Not on Risia but on the live servers. Risia doesn't give enough information and the playstyles of a few people can influence the data to much. As long as the devs are willing to make a quick change if necessary then we should let it go live and then play with it for a little while (not more than a month) and then get empirical data from E and see where we stand.

[binnsr]

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

I find that I rarely die anymore - notable exceptions tend to be when there are Beholders involved, although that isn't even a certainty anymore these days. When new content comes out, I tend to die more, but even then, the only mod5 quest where I remember dieing a lot was the first time into Ghosts of Perdition (as a lvl13 cleric in a very non-optimized party).

I'd even go so far as to say that for me, it's roughly once or twice a week - and I usually play 3-4 hours nearly every night.

[GrayOldDruid]

so I was right, you are , intentionally or not, making an even larger market for plat farmers.

Please listen to the people playing the game, the system is not broken, if you fix it, you may be out of a job soon. (due to the end of the game)

NOooo! I will not stop playing until well after I cap a Druid and a 1/2 Elven Ranger to at least lvl 20!! The game cannot end until way after that.

and...

I have been dying a bit more recently, twice a night mabye... Playing through madstone on Elite I died maybe four times? I was thinking six, but I wound up with -6800 xp debt... so it was more likely four deaths, with a couple Grand Cleric Rezzes that cut XP penalty. I think those who currently have no aversion whatsoever to death are the only ones who die a lot.

[ArkoHighStar]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

I think the data is probably evening out the curve too much. Most casual players loath death so they avoid it. Most hardcore players know the dungeons like the back of their hands, but where it all breaks down is when new content comes out, deaths tends to multiply, and they are not forgotten, so while people might not be dying a lot on average, we go through cycles of unchracteristically high levels of dying

[Dariun]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

You would be right if players were likely to react rationally to this. They won't.

Humans are very possessive about their stuff. People shoot each other over things worth $100 or less. There is something in the psyche of the species that does not have a logical reaction to people messing with their stuff. I suppose the ones who didn't defend their stuff properly died out during the tough winters and those of us who are left are the descendents of people who had a pathological need to protect their stuff.

[Yaga_Nub]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

You'd be surprised how some people view dying.

I've been in pugs and guild groups where one death and a certain player or two would whine about it the rest of the quest and beyond.

So that one death is viewed like 1000 deaths for them.

[Laith]

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

I'd take the data with a grain of salt.

More experienced players will be able to complete more quests, with fewer deaths, in less time.

So if you're looking at a straight death per quest ratio, it may be skewed in favor of those who run more quests (ie. the powergamer).

[KaKa]

I don't think that causing a player to pay half of an average level appropriate chest with junk in it per death will be too taxing.

How many times do some of you die? It seriously sounds like a lot more than the in-game data is telling me.

I would completely disagree with the part about half an average level chest cost. After dieing on Barbarian it cost me exactly 6457 gold 6 silver and 9 copper to repair only the 10% dmg. I just round it up and call it 650pp per death. What average level chest gives you 650pp for only half of its loot?

Bottom line, I like the direction the death penalty is going, but the repair costs still need to be reduced.

Also I can tell you from a player that is on the forefront of most new content, many deaths occur when learning new raids. I have died countless times learning the DQ (First to kill on Mabar) learning the Stormreaver (2nd on Mabar by 2 minutes) and the Abbot (Beaten pre-nerf on Argo). And are still dieing a lot trying to complete the new abbot where all puzzles are 100% necessary. Every time I fail, thats a death, every time I get chain lightning or disintegrated, thats a death, and I get a rez so I can die again. Now I can go back inside and try again for the low cost of bar food, but if every attempt costs me 500+pp I will either give up or run it naked.

For normal questing, ya I can adjust my play style to where I will very rarely die, thats not tough. But learning a raid thats a completely different story.

[Hvymetal]

You'd be surprised how some people view dying.

I've been in pugs and guild groups where one death and a certain player or two would whine about it the rest of the quest and beyond.

So that one death is viewed like 1000 deaths for them.

While on the flip side I am struck by the opposite where by the old common method of running the dragon could have the base runner dying anywhere from 1 time and up on purpose depending upon how good the runner was and how things went.