Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[moorewr]

95% of the players who have been playing this game for over 12 months have a capped character, and that character has been capped for at least 3 to 6 months

slight hyperbole, but just about right

Ah, we are using different metrics -- I was talking about the population as a whole. I do think there are more occasional or plateau'd players than that among the people who have played for 12 months or more. That said, I've been here 12 months and I have two capped characters. I'm evidence for the prosecution I guess.

[xman26]

Eladrin,

I am sorry, but that really sounds like a cop-out. The overall Development Team made specific choices over the past nearly 2 years that turned DDO into a Monty-Haul game, starting with Mod 3, but specifically with Mod 4. Up until that point, the items were a little over-powered for our levels, but not ridiculiously so. Vorpals and Paralyzers and Smiters were still fairly rare, as were a lot of the "Uber" Loot that we all now have. But the Gianthold turned things into "ridiculous" mode. +6 Stat Items, Vorpals, Banshiers, +5 Elemental Weapons of Righteousness, and the like, all combined to turn the game into a "Uber-Loot" system. Those were deliberate choices by the development and/or management team for DDO.

Now, we are being punished for the developer's decisions to give us this monty-haul loot. Now, you are forcing players to Bind their equipment, or run SERIOUS risk of completely ruining their items, and enforcing a major plat penalty on all players for death. While there are plenty of players out there with multiple capped characters, all with maximum plat, there is still the VAST majority of players who don't have that much plat on any of their characters, and you are going to penalize those players where it hurts the most. While I am a more active player myself, I probably don't have more than 75k plat between all of my 10 characters... but when I play with more Casual Players, the #1 gripe I hear from them is that they never have the plat to buy things on the AH, or even stock potions & wands & Scrolls!

You are seriously going to death-penalty most Casual Players into quitting the game, because the repair bills will outweigh the loot sold prices. On the flip side, your more Hardcore Players are going to stop playing their high-level characters (if not the game entirely) due to the forced decision of Bind or Destroy. I am personally considering cancelling my account because of this FUNDAMENTAL CHANGE to the game. (PS: and no, you can't have my stuff). I know that many of my friends who play are in the same boat as I am, and we are all having serious discussions about continuing playing this game (most all have played since Beta).

Seriously, if this new system is implemented, who is going to be able to afford to "figure out" the new Raid & quests? And yes, I have been testing on Risia, and the Permanent Damage rate is still quite high. I tested with a character with NO bound items on, and I was getting Permanent Damage on about 1-2 items for EVERY DEATH!!! I remember running Ghosts of Perdition the 2nd or 3rd night after Mod 5 came out with a Casual Group, and we party-wiped 5 times (and each player died 8-10 times each due to raise-and-die). Then add to that the Save-Or-Die effects in many quests, or the miss-your-jump-and-die in the Abbot Raid, and the game quickly prices players out of the game.

I understand the need to remove items from the economy, but this is not the way to do it. The balance is still not there... binding is a step, but not a sufficient step. Make it Bind to your ACCOUNT, and then Bound Items take no damage, and we have a usable system. Why should I not be able to move items back and forth between my own characters??? Why am I forced to chose between a *LOT* of permament Damage or Binding an item, which renders it utterly useless if I ever get a better one? That is penalizing players for your design and development mistakes. We should not have multiple Vorpals and Smiters, and such... nor should we have half the gear and weapons that we do... but you put them in the game. You have tried various methods to "fix" the economy with Plat-Sinks (AH, Respec Feats, etc), but none of them have worked. The only true "Plat & Item Sink" that really comes to mind is crafting, but that is still "sometime in the future".

I am sorry, but this system is going to drive players away. I have always hated the DOOOM! posts, and have refrained in the past, and even supported most of the other changes, but this one really scares me. Seriously, you have almost 1,200 posts in this thread alone, with 90%+ of the posts in opposition... I know the Forum Community is a small sub-section of the DDO Playerbase, and a very opinionated and vocal one, but you need to listen to the overwhelming majority. This Death Penalty will force people to AFK during quests, recall to repair and get rid of negative levels, and stop playing their capped characters. It will also FORCE players to farm for items to be able to pay their repair bills, or to the Plat Farmers... most casual players won't be able to afford the repairs at the higher levels. And given that the temporary negative level will lead to MORE deaths, if the player doesn't just AFK or Recall, as they will be less able to fight/cast/anything. You are SERIOUSLY penalizing the Arcane Classes here as well... Whatever... I think this entire change is a SERIOUS mistake, and I wish someone would listen. And I'm sorry, Eladrin, but all of your posts have that "We don't care what you think or say, we're going to do this and you have to live with it" tone to them. There is no "We understand your concerns..." or anything along those lines.

My thought exactly. Its as though they are saying, thanks for your cash this month, we all needed new BMWs this month on the dev team, and oh, by the way, we dont care what you think suckers.

[Mercules]

Two quick points ...

1. A study on these very forums showed that permanent damage is based on damage repaired - that is fixing 100 pts once or 10 pts 10 times results in the same amount of permanent damage.

That math was "iffy" and only statistically showed that repairing often was as statistically likely to damage your items as repairing only when it is broken. The actual reality is that I repair items constantly and don't have a single one with more than 5 points of permanent damage unless it has been used since I first started playing on every character I've played. That item has more points of damage.

[binnsr]

That math was "iffy" and only statistically showed that repairing often was as statistically likely to damage your items as repairing only when it is broken. The actual reality is that I repair items constantly and don't have a single one with more than 5 points of permanent damage unless it has been used since I first started playing on every character I've played. That item has more points of damage.

Tihocan has a good page on the DDOWiki that shows that it doesn't really matter when you repair for taking permanent damage on your gear.

[geezee]

For many people a game where dying actually -means- something is more fun to play.

So how about making the death penalties optional? Most people probably wont want them. But for those who think it's more fun, let them choose the penalties. Hell, give them a permadeath option too if they really want to go crazy. But just because some fool wants to play that way shouldn't mess up my (and most people's) enjoyment of the game.

[moorewr]

So how about making the death penalties optional? Most people probably wont want them. But for those who think it's more fun, let them choose the penalties. Hell, give them a permadeath option too if they really want to go crazy. But just because some fool wants to play that way shouldn't mess up my (and most people's) enjoyment of the game.

I'd like to suggest you try out the logical result of this line of thinking:
http://www.progressquest.com/

"Least frustrating of any game ever made!"
The stability, ease of installation and streamlined gameplay have make PQ one of the best games ever produced. The value for the purchase price can not be beat! If you have very little time for playing games, PQ is the "must have" game of the year!

[Dariun]

I'm sure it will lost here, but I thought I'd mention that certain quests will be particularly annoying with the death/item damage mechanic.

I'm thinking of things like multipart quests where there is no convenient place to repair (Cult of the Six, Tangleroot, STK) where parties will often continue straight through multiple parts of the mission. It's much more fun to jump right into the next part than it is to wait around for party members to repair.

But with the new system, the frequency with which someone will need to repair will be greatly increased and these quests will be less fun to play -- especially with something like Cult of the Six where many level-appropriate characters will have trouble travelling from the boat back to the quest site (either due to getting lost or needing help with the fighting in the adventure area).

[CSFurious]

my playtime is my relaxation time

when it turns into frustration time, i do not want to play

So how about making the death penalties optional? Most people probably wont want them. But for those who think it's more fun, let them choose the penalties. Hell, give them a permadeath option too if they really want to go crazy. But just because some fool wants to play that way shouldn't mess up my (and most people's) enjoyment of the game.

[binnsr]

So how about making the death penalties optional? Most people probably wont want them. But for those who think it's more fun, let them choose the penalties. Hell, give them a permadeath option too if they really want to go crazy. But just because some fool wants to play that way shouldn't mess up my (and most people's) enjoyment of the game.

I like part of this. I don't think the death penalty should be optional; as distasteful as I find the changes in the works, I understand the need for both a penalty for dieing and the need to remove gear from the game. The highlighted part of your post is what piqued my interest.

It should be fairly trivial to add a permadeath section to the gameplay panel in options. You could click a box for permadeath, which would disable the 'recall out' button upon death. It could also enable checkboxes to disable the AH, the Mail system, rez shrines or even auto-decline rez offers.

[CSFurious]

that your playstyle is a minority in this thread, probably less than 1%

i do not play that much compared to some in my guild & others that i run with

i have been capped for months with my sor & all i do when i play her now is loot, i.e., i loot the stormreaver every 3 days, desert chests in search of the elusive bloodstone, & loot certain gianthold quests

i have occupied my time by building other characters so that has kept me in the game

many others are bored & do not understand why the level cap went up one time in 2007

Ok... I can back up my 95% can you? 5% of the game is endgame, in this case Orchard and maybe Gianthold. 95% of it would be the quests up to that point. I wouldn't say that 95% of the player base has at least one-capped char. I for one have never capped a character. Instead I stop just short and go play different characters, re-roll a character, or turn off the game. Doesn't matter if I play or not as long as my subscription is paid for the month. Then again some people look at $15 and think, I have to do this till my eyes bleed to get my moneys worth.

$15 =

• a little more than a third of a box of figures for my Warhammer army
• 3 different paints for my Warhammer army
• a new paintbrush
• a cheap lunch for my fiance and I
• Movie... at the cheap theater maybe with popcorn
• 2 days driving to work and lunch
• 2 new paperback books
• 1 new hardcover book, on sale
• new army book for Warhammer
• enough socks to last half a year
• less than my subscription to CoX, which I play less often

If you are capped and bored you have a third option, turn off the stupid game.

[Mercules]

So how about making the death penalties optional? Most people probably wont want them. But for those who think it's more fun, let them choose the penalties. Hell, give them a permadeath option too if they really want to go crazy. But just because some fool wants to play that way shouldn't mess up my (and most people's) enjoyment of the game.

So how about only playing solo games with the GodMode cheat enabled... that way you won't mess up my and most people's enjoyment of the game. Works both ways.

[bellack]

I should calrify.

I absolutely meant MMO's.

What happens in a Single player game on your own personal desktop is up to you. In those kinds of games, if youdotn want a challenge, you can ususally just turn onteh developer "God Mode" and walk through it even.....

Most MMO's have very light to no death penalty to speak of.

[ArkoHighStar]

you know the funny thing is Turbine could have just upped the overall damage from wear and tear, and not said anything, and we probably would never have noticed. And if we did, Turbine could have just as easily said "what? these are level 16 dungeons, did you expect devils to be made of pudding, I mean their beard alone does 1d8+2 dmg, expect your stuff to take a bit of a beating"

[Mercules]

my playtime is my relaxation time

when it turns into frustration time, i do not want to play

I agree 100%... and playing with some idiot that thinks, "So what if you die... XP is easy to come by, just run Stormcleave 10 times and you are level 8." is frustrating.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

So how about only playing solo games with the GodMode cheat enabled... that way you won't mess up my and most people's enjoyment of the game. Works both ways.

"most" huh... you have that scientifically. Funny how both sides think they are the "most".

On your actual point, not wanting overly punative penalties is not the same as saying that someone wants a godmode/cheat button.

[ArkoHighStar]

Most MMO's have very light to no death penalty to speak of.

not sure which MMO's you played? please give some examples

[Mercules]

Tihocan has a good page on the DDOWiki that shows that it doesn't really matter when you repair for taking permanent damage on your gear.

I was part of the debate. I'm aware of the math. Statistics are all good and fine, but prove nothing in the end. I still repair items at 1 point of temp damage and have taken considerably less than those calculations have shown I should... almost to the point of NO damage.

[ArkoHighStar]

So how about only playing solo games with the GodMode cheat enabled... that way you won't mess up my and most people's enjoyment of the game. Works both ways.

and one could argue the same, by saying want pnp style play with a really harsh death, go play pnp, or nwn without saving while you play

[GrayOldDruid]

How truly prevalent are all those Smiters, Vorpals, Disruptors, Paralyzers that many of the most vocal on here insist that everyone and their mother has ten of each gathering dust in the bank??

I just hit level 14 and I have pulled ONE Strength-Sapping Longbow of Enfeebling as an end-reward in Gianthold. I have traded for a Disruptor and a Paralyzer. I have not pulled any of the 'awfully overabundant' uber-items. I have not seen the uber-items on the auction house all that much - and I have looked.

Can a Dev pull some kind of report of how many Vorpals are in existence compared to how many characters there are on one or two servers? Is it really going to be 10 vorpals for each character?? or more like 50 characters per 1 vorpal? 100 characters to 1 vorpal?

Because in Actual play, I still hear the occasional, "What is that?" "That is a vorpal" "Wow, awesome." - and occasional because I have not seen that many people with a vorpal. and i have never, in game, heard "Oh, I have like six vorpals and I never use them..."

I've read such on these forums.. but never in game.

If these items are truly overabundant, can someone give me a Paralyzing Composite Longbow (not just longbow, composite) of Pure Good? And a Disruption Composite Longbow with Holy or even Holy Burst? You know, since they are all over the place.

[Mercules]

that your playstyle is a minority in this thread, probably less than 1%

i do not play that much compared to some in my guild & others that i run with

i have been capped for months with my sor & all i do when i play her now is loot, i.e., i loot the stormreaver every 3 days, desert chests in search of the elusive bloodstone, & loot certain gianthold quests

i have occupied my time by building other characters so that has kept me in the game

many others are bored & do not understand why the level cap went up one time in 2007

My personality type also accounts for about 1% of the U.S. population, maybe that accounts for it?


In any case you noted that you occupy your time building other characters. That would be the 95% other part of the game I spoke of. Yes Turbine stuck it's foot in an uncomfortable place by having a level cap and not getting it increased as quickly as many would like, but they only have themselves to blame for being bored. If you gorge yourself on anything it either becomes an addiction or looses it's appeal. Moderation is the key to everything, as you yourself showed with how you approach the game.