Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[totmacher]

My upper cap on my cleric for the repair bill was definetly 5k gold

[Eladrin]

Now explain to me why its a good thing.

With no means of removing items from the economy, everything sticks around forever.

That may seem good, but it devalues every object and over time it creates a glut of high powered magic items that slowly filters down to lower levels. All gear is essentially "rented" for the period of time you use it, after which you'll pass it off to someone else, probably for approximately how much you acquired it for. (Likely a little bit less, due to the ever-increasing number of the items in circulation.)

In the end, everyone "borrows" things from the Auction House and returns them there once they're done with the item, and we end up in a very bad state where too many items are in the economy.

Facinating El, earlier in this thread you denied that this move was being done in order to get people to bind more things...

I can give honest insight into the way things work, or people can try to trap me in my words. Your choice.

Item Wear on death is primarily a monetary cost to dying, that very well reflects how well-off a character is. The super-twinked level six character gets charged more than a normal level six character, but the costs shouldn't be a significant burden to either.

It's not actually intended to permanently destroy your things, nor is it meant to get you to bind your things. If it was, then we wouldn't have cut the permanent damage rates, or we'd force-bind everything magical and remove permanent damage entirely. There are several lines of conversation going on in this thread, and the one I responded to was a request to remove permanent damage entirely. I was explaining that we could, if everything bound. Permanent damage exists to remove items to prevent the catastrophic meltdown of the economy that I describe at the top of this post. If items essentially couldn't be traded, it wouldn't be needed.

We're not doing that, though. We're trying to offer you the choice of the two systems. Tradable items that take permanent damage over time, or untradable items that don't... Except we're giving you control of which one you want on an item for item basis, and allow you to switch to the second pretty much at will.

[Hendrik]

My upper cap on my cleric for the repair bill was definetly 5k gold

I died a crapload, I mean more then I haver have in one playsession last night.

Avg 1-2pts per 1.75 repairs @4250gp.



**EDIT**

I'll take you honest insight Eladrin over anyone's misrepresentation of your words.

Thank you for the continued feedback.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

With no means of removing items from the economy, everything sticks around forever.

That may seem good, but it devalues every object and over time it creates a glut of high powered magic items that slowly filters down to lower levels. All gear is essentially "rented" for the period of time you use it, after which you'll pass it off to someone else, probably for approximately how much you acquired it for. (Likely a little bit less, due to the ever-increasing number of the items in circulation.)

And you could deal with the over twink (which would also make it easier for new players) by fixing the ML items on at least new items.

[Yaga_Nub]

With no means of removing items from the economy, everything sticks around forever.

That may seem good, but it devalues every object and over time it creates a glut of high powered magic items that slowly filters down to lower levels. All gear is essentially "rented" for the period of time you use it, after which you'll pass it off to someone else, probably for approximately how much you acquired it for. (Likely a little bit less, due to the ever-increasing number of the items in circulation.)

In the end, everyone "borrows" things from the Auction House and returns them there once they're done with the item, and we end up in a very bad state where too many items are in the economy.


I can give honest insight into the way things work, or people can try to trap me in my words. Your choice.

Item Wear on death is primarily a monetary cost to dying, that very well reflects how well-off a character is. The super-twinked level six character gets charged more than a normal level six character, but the costs shouldn't be a significant burden to either.

It's not actually intended to permanently destroy your things, nor is it meant to get you to bind your things. If it was, then we wouldn't have cut the permanent damage rates, or we'd force-bind everything magical and remove permanent damage entirely. There are several lines of conversation going on in this thread, and the one I responded to was a request to remove permanent damage entirely. I was explaining that we could, if everything bound. Permanent damage exists to remove items to prevent the catastrophic meltdown of the economy that I describe at the top of this post. If items essentially couldn't be traded, it wouldn't be needed.

We're not doing that, though. We're trying to offer you the choice of the two systems. Tradable items that take permanent damage over time, or untradable items that don't... Except we're giving you control of which one you want on an item for item basis, and allow you to switch to the second pretty much at will.

I actually applaud the fact that you're giving us a choice. For me though I just hate the fact that I only have two choices. It's the lesser of two evils for me. I either bind everything and keep that one item that I really feel is uber on one character for the rest of the life of the game or I don't bind it but I can give it to guildies, new characters (my biggest hang up because I reroll ALL the time) or sell it on the auction house but the item could permanently be destroyed.

I could also put it in my bank and choose not to use it until I build a new character that could use the item. This isn't a fun solution for me. I want to use cool items.

I know that we, the devs and the players, are never going to agree on the perfect system but at least we're getting some input into this. I really feel as if the devs are listening to us this time as compared to MOD 5 when we pointed out all kinds of issues and nothing was done about them.

[Ron]

1) Because its not fun.
2) Because it will cause inflation and thus force more people to plat & item farmers.

Now explain to me why its a good thing.

Already did. See post 1109.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I can give honest insight into the way things work, or people can try to trap me in my words. Your choice.

Your honesty is appreciated and I wasn't trying to twist your words. I simply found fresh understanding in them. In your earlier statement it appeared that the binding and damage was a secondary impact of a change that was focussed on the needs of new lowbie players. Your more recent statement seems to indicate that control of the economy is also a motivating factor for you in this new death penalty.

[Ron]

In the end, everyone "borrows" things from the Auction House and returns them there once they're done with the item, and we end up in a very bad state where too many items are in the economy.

I think we're already in that state, and we've been there for some time

[Mercules]

I can give honest insight into the way things work, or people can try to trap me in my words. Your choice.

I for one appreciate your frankness.

I will also back you up on the need for items to eventually leave the game. I recently dug into my bank account and found out I had a +1 Acid Club of Pure Good that my first character used at level 4. My second character used it as well. My rerolled Fighter used it in Delera's at level 6 lacking another Pure Good weapon for the Ghostlies. It also went through my Sorcerer twice because of a re-roll. That little club saw a lot of use against Rust Monsters on a -LOT- of my characters. It has about 2 points of permanent damage.

I have one set of +1 Adman FP that has been through about 30 starting characters all told between myself and my friends.

I see people pull +2 Elemental weapons from level 7 quests and grumble about getting ****... It used to be good... what happened? We have too many items.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I think we're already in that state, and we've been there for some time

You must have more money than me Ron

[Eladrin]

Your honesty is appreciated and I wasn't trying to twist your words. I simply found fresh understanding in them. In your earlier statement it appeared that the binding and damage was a secondary impact of a change that was focussed on the needs of new lowbie players. Your more recent statement seems to indicate that control of the economy is also a motivating factor for you in this new death penalty.

The items you have equipped are the best indicator of your character's "net worth" of sorts.

It scales very well from the newbie to the twink, from the casual roleplayer to the hardcore powergamer.

The item damage inflicted by death is meant to function as a monetary penalty that scales with level and gear without being too much of a burden. (In general, the costs ends up being a quarter to half of a level appropriate chest, if that.)

Early in experimentation, we realized that permanent damage is a major issue with this system, and took steps to try to alleviate that. (First, by making bound items no longer take permanent damage, then by reducing permanent damage across the board.) As soon as I started playing with my bound items not taking damage, I realized that I wanted the option to make the rest of my objects bound. We realized that wasn't for everyone though, and thus we're not forcing that.

Currently, it's very likely that the next iteration with have dramatically lowered damage on the first few deaths, similar to MT's proposal with some adjustments.

The "We could get rid of permanent damage if all items bound on equip" comment was simply meant to be a comment unrelated to the death mechanics. We could get rid of permanent damage, if all items bound on equip. The permanent damage mechanic wouldn't be needed.

[Yaga_Nub]

And you could deal with the over twink (which would also make it easier for new players) by fixing the ML items on at least new items.

I have to agree with Lorien on this one, even though it might conflict with another post that I made in another thread.

A +1 weapon should be ML 4.
A +2 weapon should be ML 6.
A +3 weapon should be ML 8.
A +4 weapon should be ML 10.
A +5 weapon should be ML 12.

Or something like that. I think you get my drift that if you are going to fix part of the economy, you have to fix it all. The loot tables across the board need to be revamped and brought in line with an economy that is permanent.

I'm not an economist, I just play one at home, but piece meal fixes to an economy rarely have 100% of the desired effect.

PS: I know this isn't fair to new players that might join or are low level when they made the change to the loot tables but that's one of the benefits of being an early adopter, you get advantages that others don't.

[ccheath776]

With no means of removing items from the economy, everything sticks around forever.

That may seem good, but it devalues every object and over time it creates a glut of high powered magic items that slowly filters down to lower levels. All gear is essentially "rented" for the period of time you use it, after which you'll pass it off to someone else, probably for approximately how much you acquired it for. (Likely a little bit less, due to the ever-increasing number of the items in circulation.)

In the end, everyone "borrows" things from the Auction House and returns them there once they're done with the item, and we end up in a very bad state where too many items are in the economy.


I can give honest insight into the way things work, or people can try to trap me in my words. Your choice.

Item Wear on death is primarily a monetary cost to dying, that very well reflects how well-off a character is. The super-twinked level six character gets charged more than a normal level six character, but the costs shouldn't be a significant burden to either.

It's not actually intended to permanently destroy your things, nor is it meant to get you to bind your things. If it was, then we wouldn't have cut the permanent damage rates, or we'd force-bind everything magical and remove permanent damage entirely. There are several lines of conversation going on in this thread, and the one I responded to was a request to remove permanent damage entirely. I was explaining that we could, if everything bound. Permanent damage exists to remove items to prevent the catastrophic meltdown of the economy that I describe at the top of this post. If items essentially couldn't be traded, it wouldn't be needed.

We're not doing that, though. We're trying to offer you the choice of the two systems. Tradable items that take permanent damage over time, or untradable items that don't... Except we're giving you control of which one you want on an item for item basis, and allow you to switch to the second pretty much at will.

Makes sense to me.
If too many overpowered items are in the populace. The game becomes too easy since everyone has a vorpal or a paralyzer or a banisher.

[Deragoth]

So far, I'm warming up to the idea. You need some way to penalize us level 14come16s for dieing beyond theoretical XP debt. I may come back crying a week after mod 6 goes live, but then again, I may not. I'll give it a shot. I just hope the Devs are willing to listen to us and implement an immediate change if required. So on that note, just remember folks...

When it's time to take one for the team, remember to do it in your skivvies . That sounds kinda bad, lol.

[Ciaran]

Can you post a complete list of the gear you're wearing? You're taking ten times the amount of repair costs as expected. Most level 16 characters have repair costs from one death at around 2.5k - 4k gold. (250-400 platinum.)

My Sword of Shadows cost 4k gold to repair all by itself. Of course, that was after letting it get worn.

[Eladrin]

My Sword of Shadows cost 4k gold to repair all by itself. Of course, that was after letting it get worn.

That's not from one death then.

[gpk]

Without going into any specifics, won't different classes be affected differently? Classes that are more gear dependant and place themselves more in harm's way are more likely to get item damage, lose money and lose hard to replace gear over time.

[Hendrik]

My Sword of Shadows cost 4k gold to repair all by itself. Of course, that was after letting it get worn.

But on Risia or LIVE?

We need to make that distinction so El can see what the costs are and where they are happening.



**CURSES! Foiled again! 1201!!**

[Wulf_Ratbane]

DDO has an economy? That's driving the decision?

Egads.

I've never had an item destroyed from use. (I've been playing since pre-launch.)

The only limiting factor on my gear is storage space. If I have room on a mule, and it's a nice item, sure I might mail it around, store it as long as possible. If I don't, or if I just get tired of it, I sell it to a barkeep.

Because I have all the money I need, and I don't feel like running all over town to sell things at 5 different vendors.

I would be willing to bet that a preponderant majority of the items in "the economy" are removed in a manner similar to my experience than through excessive wear.

[Yaga_Nub]

Makes sense to me.
If too many overpowered items are in the populace. The game becomes too easy since everyone has a vorpal or a paralyzer or a banisher.

Well it doesn't fix that because you can just bind the items. The problem is the loot tables. As we approach level 18 and above quests we're going to have incredible loot dropping as it stands. There probably should be a complete revamping of the loot tables.

I know we are in a Monty Haul campaign but it might be time for Monty to go on vacation for a while.