Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[ArkoHighStar]

Why don't you explain to me what I'm overlooking instead of just saying "Wrong"?

To review relevent portions of Eladrin's post on the changes:

Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.

Are you confused by what I meant? I'm saying that, overall even though items are taking the same amount of damage (in other words the damage they take isn't changing), the chance for unbound items to be permanently damaged when repaired is being halved, so therefore they will be taking less permanent damage overall.

Is this not working as intended on Risia? I'm sure you can understand how your one line response solves nothing and just brings more questions.

the reasin itis not working is that items are taking more damage per quest and thus the chance is still the same

[Baron]

The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.

You take much more damage every time you die on every equipped item, no saves, no reductions because of damage reducing enhancments because toy are dead.

Even with that quote above non bound equipment takes much more permant damage more quickly when you die and you die more easily in a fight after the first death. When your bound equipment falls off because it is broken, like the dragon armor what do you wear then or do you recall and do another quest?

The quote above is because the DEVS know how much permant damage is going to happen and they halved it and it still is much more that folks are used to on the production servers.

[Hendrik]

I did a trial of 20 deaths if you all would bother to click back a couple of pages to solve this argument earlier, sheesh.

hehe

I did the same test as you Tot, got 1 more point in the end. I got 16pts out of 20 deaths, total of 200 items repaired.

[Dariun]

How so?

Less chance of permanent damager per repair, but many many many many more repairs.

Remember, each death is 14 items needing repair so 14 chances for permanent damage. Even if that chance is lower than before, you are risking it more often.

I rarely have more than 3 items needing repair after a tough mission in the current system.

Also, after multiple deaths on Risia, I had 6 of the 14 items take permanent damage (and not just 1 tick either, it was 5 or 6 ticks).

[moorewr]

Died/Repaired much?

I've seen perm dmg EVERY time I have repaired after testing the death penalties on Risia, and have heard the same from alot of guildies..

I've died maybe 50 times. Perm damage is likely, but I can attest that it is not a given.
(I'd love to see some feedback from someone who has enough favor on a Risia character for the desert repair shop.)

Okay buh-bye. Have fun trying to find a game without a death penalty.

Hey, be nice to Prinstoni. He's just one of those addicts who has over-committed & played the life out of this game - all those capped characters are over 1750 favor!

[ccheath776]

We have a death penalty it is called XP debt, and that is what you get when you die in D&D not permanent item damage for death.

Depends on the DM.
In DND you do get permanent item damage. Its called your body, by the way that you lose a level and up to 2 points constitution. But Darnit you still got that +3 mace right?
Besides if I was a dm, and I am, I would assume that your robe or weapon, or armor took damage if you died. There would be no other way to explain it away.

Also in DND vorpals didn't flow like water and paralyzers were not in every chest. You were lucky to get a +3 wep by the time your were 10, and things like elemental damage weapons were so hard to find that aquiring them would be an entire campaign on its own.

There is a problem with that argument though. PSSSSt. This is not DND. this is DDO. And DDO had a problem. Continue with the mechanic they had and continue to lose new players or implement something new that would attract new players.
I know people will leave over the new system. So be it, bye and good luck finding a different system because most MMO's use the system we are getting.
We may lose a few but we will gain many more.
I seeeeee about 4 people who have said they will leave.
No problem I just referred 6 of my friends who did not upgrade to a full sub because of the xp mechanic so they will be taking your seats. Thanks for playing.

[DaveyCrockett]

Yep.

1pt for every 14-16 items- general repairs on avg.
1pt for every 26-28 items- expert repairs on avg.

200 items repaired - 16pts total

4200gp bill on avg.

What are your findings?

Posted my findings. Perm dmg on every repair. Didn't break it down, not a nerd.

so 200 items repaired=20 repair sessions=16 perm damages in 20 repair sessions? Does that seem reduced to you?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Yep.

1pt for every 14-16 items- general repairs on avg.
1pt for every 26-28 items- expert repairs on avg.

200 items repaired - 16pts total

4200gp bill on avg.

What are your findings?

That % seems less than what I got but still not quite the 50% reduction we had been told to expect. Even in your testing, it basically means on almost every run you can expect to see perm damage with the general repairs and every other run on expert repair.

I trust that none of the items you tested with were bound? (since obviously that would decrease the % of items taking perm damage)

I'm still hoping either we have either been unlucky or the foruma isn't working as intended and needs a little tweak.

[Warrax23]

All in all I think this idea is bad, it's going to start forcing people to rely on guild members rather then pugs, I know I won't be joining pugs when I test the new stuff when it goes live, SOOO since we merged servers to increase PuGs and LFMs this idea is going to reduce those single handedly. I will not EVER EVER EVER play my cleric in a non guild party because I don't wanna hear people whine that they died. Sometimes an idea is good on paper but horrible in actualitly and application, I think this is one of those time. Great idea and has some merit but the negitives are too much for people to take in stride, what's the point of attracting new players when alot of us who've been here since beta will be leaving? I'm not try'n to be dramatic but this is going to be the breaking point added with all the resent downtimes, all of my other friends play WoW but I play this. Least for a little longer...

[ccheath776]

In some of our testing on Risia (granted probably only 200-300 deaths in total that people have posted about) it appears that the perm damage rate is still at about 10% after 1 death. That's consistent with the current percentage so either everyone is rolling poorly or it isn't working as the devs have stated.

Also the number of times you repair will result in additional damage. For example, I have one paritcular short sword that I found for my rogue right as she hit L10. I love it. It's still her best weapon at L14. I used that sword for 80% of the content as I levelled from L10 to L14. It's taken 1 point of perm damage in that time. I've probably died 20 times in that same 4 levels (ya I know, I'm squishy but I like to lead the charge with her sometimes..zerging can be fun sometimes). That of course seriously slowed my progression from L10 to L14 but in the new system it would have mean 20 extra repairs and if the current testing is any example, that would mean another 2 points of damage. Even assuming the reduction of chance meant I would have not earned that 1 I did get the old way, that still means 2 points of damage instead of 1. Not earth shattering, but certainly not a reduction.

Then you should consider binding that item if it is a weapon you enjoy using so much. It only makes sense.

[Vhlad]

Any way to limit the item damage when the quest is giving you a first time completion bonus?

I just don't see this being good at all for encouraging people to enjoy new raids and new content. It is probably fine for old stuff, but I imagine most people are going to want to wait until a safe method of beating the quest/raid is available, rather than figure it out themselves and risk needless damage. It usually takes many deaths to figure raids out. The proposed system penalizes the fronteir players, the ones who work their butts off to figure out a raid, more than anything. There's already a problem with getting players to test out things themselves before a guide is available. This will just make it worse.

[Dariun]

Then you should consider binding that item if it is a weapon you enjoy using so much. It only makes sense.

It doesn't really make sense to bind an item with less than 60% permanent damage.

[Ciaran]

DDO is getting in line with how the successful MMO's are doing it and its a good thing.
I know people scream and holler. I can tell you xp loss being eliminated is such a good thing.
Maybe the item damage can be changed but XP loss should never be returned. Its gone and good riddance I say.

Well, we're crystal clear that you think it's a good thing.

I'm not planning on leaving this game, even if the proposed system goes in as is, which I pray it does not.

COH/COV, to my understanding has an XP penalty mechanic and still is a popular game.

At any rate, I'm not necessarily trying to argue for keeping the XP loss system per se, if I was I wouldn't be proposing slightly modified ways of implementing this new death penalty system which involves the removal of XP loss, would I?

I'm just saying I don't understand how it is that terrible of a thing for new players. Okay fine, it was, so come up with a system that reduces or removes that penalty (and be upfront with the new players about that) for a set period of time. I really don't see how it's such a terrible thing for veteran players. Okay, fine, it is. Why not cap how much XP can be lost instead of being able to accrue ever increasing amounts of debt?

There are other ways to solve the problem aside from targetting gear with a 10% penalty everytime you die.

[ArkoHighStar]

Depends on the DM.
In DND you do get permanent item damage. Its called your body, by the way that you lose a level and up to 2 points constitution. But Darnit you still got that +3 mace right?
Besides if I was a dm, and I am, I would assume that your robe or weapon, or armor took damage if you died. There would be no other way to explain it away.

Also in DND vorpals didn't flow like water and paralyzers were not in every chest. You were lucky to get a +3 wep by the time your were 10, and things like elemental damage weapons were so hard to find that aquiring them would be an entire campaign on its own.

There is a problem with that argument though. PSSSSt. This is not DND. this is DDO. And DDO had a problem. Continue with the mechanic they had and continue to lose new players or implement something new that would attract new players.
I know people will leave over the new system. So be it, bye and good luck finding a different system because most MMO's use the system we are getting.
We may lose a few but we will gain many more.
I seeeeee about 4 people who have said they will leave.
No problem I just referred 6 of my friends who did not upgrade to a full sub because of the xp mechanic so they will be taking your seats. Thanks for playing.

and good luck ever completing a raid because most of the people threatening to quit are the ones who jump in first and make it easier for the go slow crowd

[Lorien_the_First_One]

. And DDO had a problem. Continue with the mechanic they had and continue to lose new players or implement something new that would attract new players.
I know people will leave over the new system. So be it, bye and good luck finding a different system because most MMO's use the system we are getting.
We may lose a few but we will gain many more.
I seeeeee about 4 people who have said they will leave.
No problem I just referred 6 of my friends who did not upgrade to a full sub because of the xp mechanic so they will be taking your seats. Thanks for playing.

Nice made up numbers there...

But on your point, if I leave it won't be for another MMO. I've never made it past trial membership on any MMO besides this one. It had something unique I liked, if I leave its to go back to stand alone games. Heck, I can buy a new game a month and never get bored instead of spending $15/month here so there are alternatives even if you don't see them.

And even more importantly... even if everyone were to agree that the old xp mechanic was a problem for new players, there are plenty of ways to fix it besides this overly punative one. Waiving XP debt at low levels, or just removing it entirely, solves the problem. The debuff then becomes the penalty for dying.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

It doesn't really make sense to bind an item with less than 60% permanent damage.

Depends how many times you want to be able to die in quest

But ya, I agree, if I bound something I'd do it somewhere between 30-50% remaining I think. That gives you 2-4 deaths plus normal in quest wear & tear.

[Ron]

Depends how many times you want to be able to die in quest

But ya, I agree, if I bound something I'd do it somewhere between 30-50% remaining I think. That gives you 2-4 deaths plus normal in quest wear & tear.

Huh? I think you are confusing item wear and permanent damage. It would take a heck of a lot more deaths than 2-4 to reach 60% permanent damage on an item. Unless I am missing what you are saying, which is entirely possible.

[ArkoHighStar]

Depends how many times you want to be able to die in quest

But ya, I agree, if I bound something I'd do it somewhere between 30-50% remaining I think. That gives you 2-4 deaths plus normal in quest wear & tear.

I woudl say that the 10% on first death is as good as gone from the next revision based on eladrin's comments, now itsjust a matter of whether it is gone altogether(my preference #1), whether it scales like I suggested(preference #2), or just drops to a lower number(meh!)

[Ciaran]

You take much more damage every time you die on every equipped item, no saves, no reductions because of damage reducing enhancments because toy are dead.

Even with that quote above non bound equipment takes much more permant damage more quickly when you die and you die more easily in a fight after the first death. When your bound equipment falls off because it is broken, like the dragon armor what do you wear then or do you recall and do another quest?

The quote above is because the DEVS know how much permant damage is going to happen and they halved it and it still is much more that folks are used to on the production servers.

Ah, thanks for elaborating Arko and Baron.

Man, that really bites. That makes the death penalty much harsher and much more annoying and off putting than XP debt ever thought about being.

Although, you don't have to die easier in the quest with the debuff, but I can see how getting raised in a quest and having to wait a minute to five minutes to get back into action is annoyingly painful. Raise dead and Resurrection should mitigate the length of time on the debuff since, with the removal of the XP debt system Resurrection no longer mitigates XP loss.

[Ciaran]

Then you should consider binding that item if it is a weapon you enjoy using so much. It only makes sense.

Unless you happen to be altruistic and would like to pass it on to a guildmate or gods forbid, an alt! Or even a new player!