Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Baron]

Existing items are going to take LESS permanent damage than they currently do, even though they might get damaged more often

Wrong.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Penalty:

1. a punishment imposed or incurred for a violation of law or rule.
2. a loss, forfeiture, suffering, or the like, to which one subjects oneself by nonfulfillment of some obligation.
3. something that is forfeited, as a sum of money.
4. a disadvantage imposed upon one of the competitors or upon one side for infraction of the rules of a game, sport, etc.
5. consequence or disadvantage attached to any action, condition, etc.

Yeah... I can't imagine a Death Penalty would be punitive.

Now you are just being a smart alec. Would your wordsmithing argument be solved if I have said "unnecessarily punitive"? That's kind of understood by most people, especially when I also said penalities are reasonable, just not this one, but I guess you missed that. Sort of like death would be a penalty that could be imposed for theft but some would think it was overly punitive.

[Hendrik]

Wrong.

How so?

[Ron]

which is why I proposed it, even though I think the item damage should go away altogether, if i am stuck with it I am going to at least try to make it tolerable

level 1-2 no death penalty
level 3 up
Normal
1st death death debuff 1 -2% item damage
2nd death death debuff 2 -4% item damage
3nd death death debuff 3 -6% item damage
Hard
1st death death debuff 1 -2% item damage
2nd death death debuff 2 -4% item damage
3nd death death debuff 3 -6% item damage
4th death death debuff 4 -8% item damage
Elite
1st death death debuff 1 -2% item damage
2nd death death debuff 2 -4% item damage
3nd death death debuff 3 -6% item damage
4th death death debuff 4 -8% item damage
5th death death debuff 5 -10% item damage

incorporate with field repair at shrine allowing you repair your items based on repair skill and a item repair kit(0-+5), that would based on the repair skill allow you to repair up to almost full repair leaving about 3% in all cases so you ahave to go to a vendor to repair after, but at a much reduced cost and a reduced chance at perm damage.

Iagree with this post 100% (except for the parenthetical in the first sentence). After some thought, I've decided I prefer this method over the character level method of capping it (sorry MT, heh). I think Arco has a very good point that systems we have based on character level tend not to scale so well. As I said before, I'd be good with either one, but I marginally prefer this way.

[DaveyCrockett]

How so?

Get on Risia, and you shall see..

[ccheath776]

You misunderstand. I'm actually fine with the re-entry penalty, to an extent. It didn't use to be fair to casters, but that's why they did things like add shrines in VON5.

People, myself included are saying they don't like the item damage penalty, why they don't like it and suggesting alternatives. Some of those alternatives include mixing the Touch of Dolurrh penalty with XP loss, either as is or halved. Other alternatives, such as ones I've suggested, along with others, is to have the item damage scale and/or cap. I've said all of these things in other posts, so please don't tell me how I should be presenting my argument.

You still have yet to give me a convincing reason why XP debt is so bad besides "time lost" without proposing an idea that doesn't also fall under the "time lost" category. If you have as many reasons as you say surely you should have no problem coming up with more examples.

Well there are many. too many to list.
the biggest reason, and the one that seems to be why the devs chose that was that it effected newer players. To the point that many were not upgrading to full subs because of it.
It was a real sticking point, especially when I mentored new people. I tried to make all the excuses I could about it but it never replaced the fact that instead of getting 2k xp they were getting 1700 or lower because they died. It never made sense. It still doesn't make sense to me.

The other is that there are very few MMO's out there that do xp loss. The major titles with millions of players dont have an xp loss mechanic at all. Like guild wars, like WOW, like LOTRO.
Those games are doing it right and bringing in the subs. While DDO lingers and can't get new players because they have a system that discourages new players to come in.
If WOW or LOTRO have got millions of subs while ddo has much less than that, is DDO to keep doing what its doing and think things are ok as is? No they need to draw in new players and do it how the successful MMO's are doing it. thats the mistake DDO has been making all along was trying to be "different" and loyal to DND without realizing that there are some aspects that ALL mmo's have because they have been working and are desired so much in the industry. Like crafting, like core classes, like death penalty system that doesn't include xp loss.

I know people say "WELL IM GOING TO LEAVE.." ok where are you going to go?
WOW? Wow has the same death penalty system as we are getting. You die, you get item damage.
Guild wars? They have a debuff system and slight item damage.
AOC? Aoc will have a stiff penalty system where if you die too much you get sent to haites and have to fight your way out.
Tabula Rasa? Item damage, dread mechanic, similar to a debuff.

So tell me where are going to go then?
DDO is getting in line with how the successful MMO's are doing it and its a good thing.
I know people scream and holler. I can tell you xp loss being eliminated is such a good thing.
Maybe the item damage can be changed but XP loss should never be returned. Its gone and good riddance I say.

[Ron]

XP debt is better than item damage and anyone who syas different doesn't have the equipment that I spent 2 years searching for. Double or tripple xp debt is 500X better. Item damage is insane, and touch of dolurth effects could be potentially brutal in quests like the Reaver where there is always 5-6 people who get sucked up the middle). They will be taken out of the quest, nerfed when they go to loot, and that is just ********.

I will cancel my account if they implement this system. It is a stupid idea.

By the way the reason most people stopped using Risia is because the devs DO NOT LISTEN TO OUR SUGGESTIONS!

Okay buh-bye. Have fun trying to find a game without a death penalty.

[Prinstoni]

I notice all your characters listed are capped... would this be why you wouldn't mind "Double of tripple xp debt is 500X better."?

When I started playing the XP debt meant a lot more. It took us months to get our characters to level 10. Those players who have joined in the last year or so have had an advantage of being able to level up in a matter of weeks (to L14). We also used to see new content every month, and we loved it. Now we wait for 6 months and get ****, bad "fixes", and no new content. That is why

I have a few L5-L10 chars, but I have no desire to play them. They are the same basic characters as the other 5 I have.

The 5 capped characters I have ran everything in the game elite (except the Abbott), and they were all rerolled no less than 3-4 times before I was happy with their build. I deleted more characters with raid loot and +2 tomes than most people ever played. I just got tired of rerolling about 8 months ago. Perm item damage means losing or binding items, and that is just a bad idea.

[Ciaran]

Wrong.

Why don't you explain to me what I'm overlooking instead of just saying "Wrong"?

To review relevent portions of Eladrin's post on the changes:

Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.

Are you confused by what I meant? I'm saying that, overall even though items are taking the same amount of damage (in other words the damage they take isn't changing), the chance for unbound items to be permanently damaged when repaired is being halved, so therefore they will be taking less permanent damage overall.

Is this not working as intended on Risia? I'm sure you can understand how your one line response solves nothing and just brings more questions.

[Hendrik]

Get on Risia, and you shall see..

I have been. Why I asked.

[DaveyCrockett]

I have been. Why I asked.

Died/Repaired much?

I've seen perm dmg EVERY time I have repaired after testing the death penalties on Risia, and have heard the same from alot of guildies..

And btw - **** YOU ARKO!! When did you get a brain? Why don't you ever bring it when we're blazing new content?

[Ciaran]

Okay buh-bye. Have fun trying to find a game without a death penalty.

Wow, that just isn't helpful at all, and from what I understand is against the forum guidelines.

I expected better from somebody who created a great community tool for the game.

[Prinstoni]

Okay buh-bye. Have fun trying to find a game without a death penalty.

We have a death penalty it is called XP debt, and that is what you get when you die in D&D not permanent item damage for death.

[Ciaran]

Died/Repaired much?

I've seen perm dmg EVERY time I have repaired after testing the death penalties on Risia, and have heard the same from alot of guildies..

And btw - **** YOU ARKO!! When did you get a brain? Why don't you ever bring it when we're blazing new content?

Wow, really? That sucks. I'm sure you've bug reported it. I'll log on tonight and test it myself and report it if I see it too.

[ArkoHighStar]

Died/Repaired much?

I've seen perm dmg EVERY time I have repaired after testing the death penalties on Risia, and have heard the same from alot of guildies..

And btw - **** YOU ARKO!! When did you get a brain? Why don't you ever bring it when we're blazing new content?

its all part of my master plan sit back and enjoy the ride
oh wait did I say that out loud

[totmacher]

I did a trial of 20 deaths if you all would bother to click back a couple of pages to solve this argument earlier, sheesh.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Why don't you explain to me what I'm overlooking instead of just saying "Wrong"?

To review relevent portions of Eladrin's post on the changes:

Bound items will no longer have a chance of taking permanent damage when repaired.
The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.

Are you confused by what I meant? I'm saying that, overall even though items are taking the same amount of damage (in other words the damage they take isn't changing), the chance for unbound items to be permanently damaged when repaired is being halved, so therefore they will be taking less permanent damage overall.

Is this not working as intended on Risia? I'm sure you can understand how your one line response solves nothing and just brings more questions.

In some of our testing on Risia (granted probably only 200-300 deaths in total that people have posted about) it appears that the perm damage rate is still at about 10% after 1 death. That's consistent with the current percentage so either everyone is rolling poorly or it isn't working as the devs have stated.

Also the number of times you repair will result in additional damage. For example, I have one paritcular short sword that I found for my rogue right as she hit L10. I love it. It's still her best weapon at L14. I used that sword for 80% of the content as I levelled from L10 to L14. It's taken 1 point of perm damage in that time. I've probably died 20 times in that same 4 levels (ya I know, I'm squishy but I like to lead the charge with her sometimes..zerging can be fun sometimes). That of course seriously slowed my progression from L10 to L14 but in the new system it would have mean 20 extra repairs and if the current testing is any example, that would mean another 2 points of damage. Even assuming the reduction of chance meant I would have not earned that 1 I did get the old way, that still means 2 points of damage instead of 1. Not earth shattering, but certainly not a reduction.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Wow, really? That sucks. I'm sure you've bug reported it. I'll log on tonight and test it myself and report it if I see it too.

I had the same experience. All but one incident resulted in a point of damage (starting with undamaged equipment to start, straight /death so that I only had 10% on each piece - so a best case senerio).

I bugged it and reported it on the risia forms.

[DaveyCrockett]

I did a trial of 20 deaths if you all would bother to click back a couple of pages to solve this argument earlier, sheesh.

Lots of people are testing. I would imagine they should post their results as well, instead of just looking at yours and saying 'oh'.

[Hendrik]

Died/Repaired much?

I've seen perm dmg EVERY time I have repaired after testing the death penalties on Risia, and have heard the same from alot of guildies..

And btw - **** YOU ARKO!! When did you get a brain? Why don't you ever bring it when we're blazing new content?

Yep.

1pt for every 14-16 items- general repairs on avg.
1pt for every 26-28 items- expert repairs on avg.

200 items repaired - 16pts total

4200gp bill on avg.

What are your findings?