Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[totmacher]

Given that Eladrin has strongly suggested he likes a system that ramps up item damage over multiple deaths, is that going to mitigate the disastrous new system for a lot of you nay-sayers?

If the first death between resting only does 2% item damage, and the second does 4% and so on up to the fifth death (and any subsequent deaths) doing 10%, how is that going to affect people's perception of the system.

I would be perfectly fine with this system and in fact prefer it to the system we have now. It makes sense that Touch of Dollurh, etc., would go up as you died a lot instead of hitting you with its hardest penalty the first time (at cap).

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I'm currently also looking at a way of integrating item hardness into the formula.

You know I was discussing this with friends that prefer playing squishies and they had a concern that this system already was worse for them and adding hardness would make it worse.

Squishy robes tend to have less total points they can take before being destroyed and a lower hardness than say FP. That makes sense being cloth and all and generally squishies get hit less so its ok.

But if you can take 10% damage without getting hit at all then squishies may find their repair costs rising an dtheir equipment, because it has less max durability, will actually die first.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I just did a test on Risia, it was 20 times of: Run into orchard, /death, type "death x" in General Chat, wait for Touched by Dollurh to go away, drink exactly 2x csw pots so I can make a fall off the SW corner, add all, repair (3978gp 8sp 6cp, kept fluctuating, but around that number), tick on sheet for any perm damage, repeat.

Nice data totmacher. 20 deaths with 10 items repaired averaging 4000gp,
5 of the 10 items took some perm damage totalling 15 pts across 20 repairs.

The only thing we don't know is if any of those items had prior permanent damage (meaning they possibly took more than 1 point of perm damage on any one of the botched repairs).

[Hendrik]

Given that Eladrin has strongly suggested he likes a system that ramps up item damage over multiple deaths, is that going to mitigate the disastrous new system for a lot of you nay-sayers?

If the first death between resting only does 2% item damage, and the second does 4% and so on up to the fifth death (and any subsequent deaths) doing 10%, how is that going to affect people's perception of the system.

Still in favor of it MT.

Succeeds in achieving what the DEV's wanted.

And as a capped player, I would much rather face 2% damage at my first death then 10%.

[Ciaran]

Ciaran,

The developers have said that they were getting a lot of negative feedback about the XP debt mechanic. They didn't say explicitly, but I think they were getting this data from people who took the trial and didn't sign up or from people leaving the game.

I don't know -- but my guess is they feel they are having trouble retaining new customers and that this game mechanic is part of the problem.

I seriously doubt they are actually trying to help players like me, because, let's face it, despite my complaining, I've been paying them steadily for almost 2 years, so obviously I like the game.

I do, however, think the equipment damage on death mechanism needs to be scaled back or dropped entirely. Primarily because it is really really annoying. I honestly don't care if I have to bind items or replace them periodically (although I think most people will care more than I do); I just find repairing to be a "chore", and I have enough chores in real life (that stupid shelf in the office is falling down again because I used the wrong kind of anchors for the wall grumble... grumble...).

Cheers,
Dariun

P.S. This is the more than one word explanation for my flippant "money" answer.

I appreciate that, and see better where you are coming from.

Since I don't have the data they are quoting, I have no choice but to take their word for it. Still, I just have a really hard time understanding how, especially at low levels the death penalty system was so harsh.

I don't see why a trial account or the first 30 days doesn't include a reduced death penalty. Why should veterans who've learned how not to die so frequently be forced to accept a system that is ostensibly intended to be easier for new players to swallow? In truth I think item damage to equipped items is going to really bother new players who get luck and pull their first muckbane or +1 elemental sword. They're still dying just as much, but now they have to run around and repair their gear more often. It's just shifting the sting from one place to the next, and both are annoying.

I agree with you about the equipment damage penalty however. I think it should scale and/or cap at a certain point.

[Hendrik]

I'm currently also looking at a way of integrating item hardness into the formula.

+5 Adamantine armor should indeed be sturdy.

Then that just makes it even better!

[Serpent]

For a minute lets pretend that the proposed Death/damage idea is not even in existence. SO therefore how do we make death more of a hinderance as well as increase the monetary costs to help give the economy a little balance.

Everyone has voiced their outrage or support at the proposed system. So lets come up with a new way.

XP debt, lets get rid of this. It apparently too much of a deterrent to new players.

SO in exchange lets give the players a debuff, say one negative level. This level can be removed by shrining, casting restoration or what not. This will do several things.

1) it can not lower you below first level. Saves all the low level players.
2) it affects SP and cash money of clerics and other players (bards, etc), who now have to remove this debuff.
3) It would hopefully increase greater party tactics when fighting end bosses near a shrine. No more death rez, death rez.

Now what about the actual death itself.

When you die you must pay gold to the gods. In other words, to receive a raise dead it is 5000 gold, 10000 gold for a resurrection. So what would this do.

1) it would reduce cash in circulation. Help to balance the economy.
2) This is big money for every player, so death would become a concern over time.

What about recalling from quest when dead? This is were I agree with item damage. The stress on your body and soul is very great and it affects your physical being.

All items take 5% durability in damage, that must be repaired at the vendor. With the possible chance for perma damage. What does this do.

1) You still take the gold piece penalty for receiving a raise dead.
2) item damage becomes priority. so more thought would be done by players.
3) no more recalling for sp or to get rid of debuffs.
4) take an xp hit for reentry into quest.

I believe this addresses all of the concerns of all parties, from multiple threads. It removes money from the game, it promotes party cohesiveness, and it adds threat of damage for exploitive tactics.

I believe anyone and everyone can support this system.

[Ciaran]

Still in favor of it MT.

Succeeds in achieving what the DEV's wanted.

And as a capped player, I would much rather face 2% damage at my first death then 10%.

Same here. It's not so much the item damage penalty that bothers me, but the fact that at higher level where death is much easier to have happen and to have happen repeatedly the penalty is so harsh. They've shifted the pain to the higher level, most likely more experienced (but not always) players.

To that last point, I've run with more level 14's that had only been playing the trial or only been playing for a few weeks than new people frustrated and inhibited by the current death penalty. How they did I have no idea, because they zerg and otherwise do annoying things in group. Obviously as new players they were able to overcome the crippling XP debt penalty...

[Dariun]

Given that Eladrin has strongly suggested he likes a system that ramps up item damage over multiple deaths, is that going to mitigate the disastrous new system for a lot of you nay-sayers?

If the first death between resting only does 2% item damage, and the second does 4% and so on up to the fifth death (and any subsequent deaths) doing 10%, how is that going to affect people's perception of the system.

I think it will be better, but it will be the difference between people being really really really angry and just really angry.

The intensity of the anger will be less but it will be just as widespread.

People don't like their stuff getting broken. And, let's face it, DDO has made "acquiring stuff" a big, big part of the game (primarily due to static dungeons, since everything is the same *except* the stuff, but that's a whole other thread...).

[xman26]

That's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Getting the dragon armor in the first place is not changing in any way. In fact, it's getting better in that you'll never need to worry about replacing dragon armor again.

In fact, over all dragon armor is getting better.

Since dragon armor binds, you no longer risk permanent damage whenever you repair it. This means you can wait until it's completely damaged (or really close) in order to repair it, which is now only going to take 3 relics.

Not sure if we are talking about the same type of armour or maybe I'm unaware of a change made, But i'm referring to dragon scale armour and last time I repaired it, it could only be done by the guy who crafts it and it cost me dragon scales.

[Mad_Bombardier]

I'm currently also looking at a way of integrating item hardness into the formula.

+5 Adamantine armor should indeed be sturdy.

I agree that it should be sturdy. But, I think a hardness-based system might be unnecessarily biased against non-weapons and armor. As it is now, higher Hardness weapons and armor are already less likely to take permanent damage on botched repairs.

[totmacher]

Nice data totmacher. 20 deaths with 10 items repaired averaging 4000pp,
5 of the 10 items took some perm damage totalling 15 pts across 20 repairs.

The only thing we don't know is if any of those items had prior permanent damage (meaning they possibly took more than 1 point of perm damage on any one of the botched repairs).

I put their initial durability and then their end durability in the table there. Some of them did have item damage on them to start, which is why some are like 58.

[Yaga_Nub]

You know I was discussing this with friends that prefer playing squishies and they had a concern that this system already was worse for them and adding hardness would make it worse.

Squishy robes tend to have less total points they can take before being destroyed and a lower hardness than say FP. That makes sense being cloth and all and generally squishies get hit less so its ok.

But if you can take 10% damage without getting hit at all then squishies may find their repair costs rising an dtheir equipment, because it has less max durability, will actually die first.

I completely agree Lorien. Adding equipment durability will affect the robe-wearers more than anyone else. And the answer from the devs shouldn't be, "BIND YOUR ITEMS!"

[Hendrik]

I agree that it should be sturdy. But, I think a hardness-based system might be unnecessarily biased against non-weapons and armor. As it is now, higher Hardness weapons and armor are already less likely to take permanent damage on botched repairs.

It would be tricky. I hate to see this 'unfairly' effect the characters that have how Hardiness items. Some are downright low; Gems(8), Leather(15), Flesh(1)!. Be nice to increase that.

Binding could fix my concern I guess....



Who is the crafting DEV? Gots an idea!

[Jondallar]

In regards to new players having difficulty playing and getting hit and discouraged by XP debt let me share my first (Sort of) hand experiences. I have a good friend new to the game (signed up the day before the refer a friend program ). He did not want me to twink or power level him (which I did not want to do either ... the excitement and aw as well as the learning curve of running the harbor quests for the first character is priceless) how ever he was learning the game play and user interface as well as not having super good graphic card lead to frequent deaths. I run with him occasionally, and share my lowbie chest loots (more than I would with a pug, but not a rediculous twinking amount) and I try not to lead him through quests until he gets a handle on how to play. If I did not send him a candy cane to preserve his life and self heal a little bit he would take forever to level and would have still been level 2 by the time the trial account expired, and never upgraded because it was to hard to level. Instead I ran him through a few quests like WW very quickly one evening and got his level up to 3. This made a big difference to him and so he decided to upgrade his acct.
Now this long winded story leads me to my point if he did not have a friend to help him along the way he would have been very discouraged from all the early deaths and not being able to increase in Leveland would have quit. No EXP Death Penalty will help new players much more than experienced players, and the permanent damage will curb the ue of death as a strategic tactic.

[Ciaran]

I completely agree Lorien. Adding equipment durability will affect the robe-wearers more than anyone else. And the answer from the devs shouldn't be, "BIND YOUR ITEMS!"

Wow, I hadn't thought about this but that's right on.

Even bound it will take less deaths for a robe wearer to have to repair their items, and this just adds frustration to the game. Let's face it, unless you are a very experienced and skilled twitch player when it comes to playing robe wearers, when the party loses it's main fighter and cleric things tend to go bad quickly. That means that squishies die shortly afterwards. Sure there are several robe wearers who can turn around a bad situation, but especially if pugging at lower levels before you get really good defensive and offensive spells (PK, FoD) and items, death is a single crit, sometimes a single hit away.

Again, this stands to hurt the same new players they have quoted as being a deciding factor behind this new death system.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Not sure if we are talking about the same type of armour or maybe I'm unaware of a change made, But i'm referring to dragon scale armour and last time I repaired it, it could only be done by the guy who crafts it and it cost me dragon scales.

It cost you relics, not scales.

[kruggar]

hmm its not that hard..

give a discount based in a formula like that.

((<hardness> - <base hardness>)/<base hardness>)*<modifier>

<hardness> - hardness of the item
<base hardness> - hardeness considered to be the default less then that is fragile, over is tought
<modifier> - a x% modifier applied to the dmg modifier by lvl

a table considering 2% as <modifier> and 14 as <base hardness>

modifier 2%
base hardness 14

hardness discount/penaltie
5 -1,29% (penaltie to dmg per death)
6 -1,14%
7 -1,00%
8 -0,86%
9 -0,71%
10 -0,57%
11 -0,43%
12 -0,29%
13 -0,14%
14 0,00%
15 0,14% (discount from dmg per death)
16 0,29%
17 0,43%
18 0,57%
19 0,71%
20 0,86%
21 1,00%
22 1,14%
23 1,29%
24 1,43%
25 1,57%
26 1,71%
27 1,86%
28 2,00%
29 2,14%
30 2,29%

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Now this long winded story leads me to my point if he did not have a friend to help him along the way he would have been very discouraged from all the early deaths and not being able to increase in Leveland would have quit. No EXP Death Penalty will help new players much more than experienced players, and the permanent damage will curb the ue of death as a strategic tactic.

Thanks for the story, it does back up with we heard from El as a key reason for the change. Here's the thing though...they don't need to damage our stuff to fix this.

They could also solve the problem by eliminating xp debt below L5 or 6 (by which time they are hooked ) instead of the current system of just not having a penality at L1. Adding the debuff planned would also be a good replacement penalty across the board.

Not sure if we are talking about the same type of armour or maybe I'm unaware of a change made, But i'm referring to dragon scale armour and last time I repaired it, it could only be done by the guy who crafts it and it cost me dragon scales.

Hey X, I think you might be a bit confused.... the guy who makes it takes relics to repair the scale armor. And one of the smart moves that is coming from the new system is that you will need less relics and the guy won't be able to perm damage it anymore. That means you don't have to repair until its at something like 20 or 30% remaining durability.

[Ciaran]

Now this long winded story leads me to my point if he did not have a friend to help him along the way he would have been very discouraged from all the early deaths and not being able to increase in Leveland would have quit. No EXP Death Penalty will help new players much more than experienced players...

What you say applies to all of us who ever started playing this game. If I didn't have friends to run content with and help me out I would've been very discouraged. That's kind of the fundamental design behind the game...grouping and making friends and running with them...hence the friends interface, ability to make guilds...etc, etc.

If I was expected to play the game alone as it is, I'd never have upgraded my account either. We all need friends and help as we learn to play.