Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Dariun]

Without any data to back it up, I'm willing to venture a guess from my experience at playing this game and say that most people prefer to group with others and play the game in the manner it seems to have been intended. If they had intended for solo play to be viable and a way for players of ALL skill level to play, they'd have included it on release.

Ciaran,

The developers have said that they were getting a lot of negative feedback about the XP debt mechanic. They didn't say explicitly, but I think they were getting this data from people who took the trial and didn't sign up or from people leaving the game.

I don't know -- but my guess is they feel they are having trouble retaining new customers and that this game mechanic is part of the problem.

I seriously doubt they are actually trying to help players like me, because, let's face it, despite my complaining, I've been paying them steadily for almost 2 years, so obviously I like the game.

I do, however, think the equipment damage on death mechanism needs to be scaled back or dropped entirely. Primarily because it is really really annoying. I honestly don't care if I have to bind items or replace them periodically (although I think most people will care more than I do); I just find repairing to be a "chore", and I have enough chores in real life (that stupid shelf in the office is falling down again because I used the wrong kind of anchors for the wall grumble... grumble...).

Cheers,
Dariun

P.S. This is the more than one word explanation for my flippant "money" answer.

[ArkoHighStar]

You don't have to... Bind the item to you and it doesn't get permanent damage. Now you might have to farm for another copy of that item for another character(instead of just passing it on) you create, but that is a different argument.

and that is the point, now you are forcing me to farm quests to be able to play. Again all this solution does is switch dissatisfaction from one group to another. The debuff at least seems to be tolerated by most, even by thsoe who prefer xp debt myself included. Item damage is proving to be an extremely polarizing penalty and only a few think it is a great idea.

[stockwizard5]

Not sure how much this has been mentioned but this really REALLY sucks for the dragon armors.

[MysticTheurge]

and that is the point, now you are forcing me to farm quests to be able to play.

Your logic assumes that you need amazing items in order to be able to play.

[Hendrik]

Not sure how much this has been mentioned but this really REALLY sucks for the dragon armors.

Not so bad with a repair cost of 3 scales now.

One, maybe two runs of the proper relic quest, you got your repairs and then some.

[totmacher]

I just did a test on Risia, it was 20 times of: Run into orchard, /death, type "death x" in General Chat, wait for Touched by Dollurh to go away, drink exactly 2x csw pots so I can make a fall off the SW corner, add all, repair (3978gp 8sp 6cp, kept fluctuating, but around that number), tick on sheet for any perm damage, repeat.

These are the stats I recorded for my items before I started the run, (B) indicates it is a bound item:

name: initial durability -- end durability (after repairs x20)
goggles: 48 -- 46
(B) helmet: 69 -- 69
necklace: 67 -- 64
trinket: 49 -- 47
(B) cloak: 90 -- 90
belt: 68 -- 68
right ring: 58 -- 58
(B) gloves: 69 -- 69
boots: 67 -- 64
left ring: 58 -- 58
bracers: 79 -- 79
robe: 73 -- 68
(B) weapon right: 108 -- 108
weapon left: 120 -- 120

Items / Non-bound:
14 / 10

End Cost in repairs: 80113 GP

I think you all might be interested in the results:

[Hendrik]

Your logic assumes that you need amazing items in order to be able to play.

We all like the flashy items!



But I would think the items one owns are a very small percentage of the characters ability in combat.

[xman26]

Not so bad with a repair cost of 3 scales now.

One, maybe two runs of the proper relic quest, you got your repairs and then some.

Right, its obvious you dont do many scale runs. I've done 5 runs in one night and walked away with a total of 3 scales, 1 of each make. Scales should be an automatic static reward.

[ArkoHighStar]

Your logic assumes that you need amazing items in order to be able to play.

even semi decent items do not drop at a great rate, most often the randomly generated loot tables produce garbage not even fit for the vendor. It takes good luck and repeated efforts to get decent loot, sometimes your hot and pull great stuff over and over again, and then you pull squat for weeks.

[jjflanigan]

Right, its obvious you dont do many scale runs. I've done 5 runs in one night and walked away with a total of 3 scales, 1 of each make.

You don't need scales to do repairs, you use relics.

[MysticTheurge]

Right, its obvious you dont do many scale runs. I've done 5 runs in one night and walked away with a total of 3 scales, 1 of each make.

That's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Getting the dragon armor in the first place is not changing in any way. In fact, it's getting better in that you'll never need to worry about replacing dragon armor again.

In fact, over all dragon armor is getting better.

Since dragon armor binds, you no longer risk permanent damage whenever you repair it. This means you can wait until it's completely damaged (or really close) in order to repair it, which is now only going to take 3 relics.

[Hendrik]

I just did a test on Risia, it was 20 times of: Run into orchard, /death, type "death x" in General Chat, wait for Touched by Dollurh to go away, drink exactly 2x csw pots so I can make a fall off the SW corner, add all, repair (3978gp 8sp 6cp, kept fluctuating, but around that number), tick on sheet for any perm damage, repeat.

These are the stats I recorded for my items before I started the run, (B) indicates it is a bound item:

name: initial durability -- end durability (after repairs x20)
goggles: 48 -- 46
(B) helmet: 69 -- 69
necklace: 67 -- 64
trinket: 49 -- 47
(B) cloak: 90 -- 90
belt: 68 -- 68
right ring: 58 -- 58
(B) gloves: 69 -- 69
boots: 67 -- 64
left ring: 58 -- 58
bracers: 79 -- 79
robe: 73 -- 68
(B) weapon right: 108 -- 108
weapon left: 120 -- 120

Items / Non-bound:
14 / 10

End Cost in repairs: 80113 GP

I think you all might be interested in the results:

15 pts of perm damage in 20 deaths?

I was averaging 1-2pts per death with normal repairs myself. My repair costs were slightly higher, 4200gp rounded, per death.

I plan to hit up the desert and see about any reduction in perm dam next.

[Ciaran]

Because its all about time.
If I play for 4 hours I expect to get say 4k xp.
I shouldn't have the limitation that if I die once I lose 1k xp and that is permanently gone. I can't gain that 1000 xp back. IN other words my time is now lost. Its like someone paying you 10$ an hour for 3 hours but only paying two of those hours.
I dont know how anybody can say "Well you lose 3k xp but you gaine 10k xp so your still ahead..." Give me a break. So if I lose 2 cars but gain 3, thats ok when I could have had all 5 right? I lose 10 million dollars but gain 1 million when I could have had the whole 11 million, thats ok as well right? What kind of thinking is that?
Dont take my words harshly but honestly, does that kind of mentality make any sense to you?

Don't ever play PnP then because if you die the penalty is much harsher and you've lost what could amount to MONTHS worth of time.

And really, you are comparing apples to carrots...you're not even in the same food group here.

You're comparing time willingly invested in a video game that is played for fun to costly material possessions or hourly wages? The two things aren't even close to being similar.

However, to use your mentality and reasoning, if you gamble in Las Vegas and hit it big or win the lottery for 60 million dollars you're not getting the full amount of what you won because Uncle Sam takes his piece. Are you going to complain about only winning 45 million dollars instead of 60 million? Didn't think so.

YEAH your ahead but not as much as if you would have had with NO xp penalty. you complete a quest for 10k xp, no matter how many times you die you still get that 10k xp.

That's the risk you take for playing the game. If you are constantly finding yourself so far behind in XP debt that it is hard for you to advance your character and you are losing a lot of time invested, you might consider doing things differently. XP is how your character advances. In order to advance, you have to improve and overcome greater challenges. If you fail, XP is deducted.

So what your down a couple thousand gold and some item damage. Big deal. Its not like earning it is not easy.
Id rather lose the gold and get item damage than have to go back in time and try to recover the xp debt. Its 1 step forward and 3 steps back.
Its like your in a 100 meter dash about to win and someone walks up and moves you back 50 meters.
Its like someone rolling a boulder up a hil and as you get to the top it tumbles down and you have to do it all over again.

That's all a matter of perspective. How am I not losing time invested to the game, as you say, if I have to grind loot runs to make money to repair my gear? I give away items other people can use but sometimes I sell them if I'm low on funds. None of my characters keep 10k p for long because I'm buying stuff to help out guild runs and buying potions. Having to make sure I do something that brings in enough gold for me to keep my items repaired takes me away from doing other, more pleasurable stuff in the game. Going by your "time lost" reasoning, how is this any different?

You say the xp penalty was not harsh, I can make a thousand arguments as to how I think it was.
This mechanic once put in is in line with all of the DND rules. If I was DM and you got bludgeoned to death with an ogr club, I dont care what kind of armor you got, it took damage. You stand in the line of a dragons breath weapon, your stuff is going to be damaged.

Okay, why don't you start with making one?

Also, XP debt is in line with PnP rules. Except you lose a level and are placed between the XP you needed for current level and the XP you need for the next level. That's far too harsh for DDO.

I am a mentor I welcome new players all the time.
3 out of 4 people hated the xp penalty and said it would just take them too long to level with that mechanic and therefore did not purchase the full game. I know it sounds strange, dumb, or outlandish, but the xp penalty was putting a wedge in this game for new players. Without it, I think that wedge will be lifted and newer players will come now. Its the truth. The question is, is it already too late? Have we already lost too many potential customers because of the xp penalty? Whos to know.

If that's true, then wouldn't a better solution be to have a grace period that ends after a certain period of time in which death penalties are much lighter for new players so they can learn the game?

[Hendrik]

Right, its obvious you dont do many scale runs. I've done 5 runs in one night and walked away with a total of 3 scales, 1 of each make. Scales should be an automatic static reward.

Maybe you should do the right run then.

You need relics, not scales, to repair dragon armor.

[ArkoHighStar]

That's irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Getting the dragon armor in the first place is not changing in any way. In fact, it's getting better in that you'll never need to worry about replacing dragon armor again.

In fact, over all dragon armor is getting better.

Since dragon armor binds, you no longer risk permanent damage whenever you repair it. This means you can wait until it's completely damaged (or really close) in order to repair it, which is now only going to take 3 relics.

yes but you are rep[airing more often, as nobody wants to let ther armor get so low that in a quest they are suddenly naked. In my opinion keeping the option to bind items and having bound items not take perm damage is still a good idea

[Mad_Bombardier]

Not sure how much this has been mentioned but this really REALLY sucks for the dragon armors.

No, it's really quite GOOD for dragonscale armors. Bound items never take "permanent" damage with botched repairs. And the relic cost dropped again from 5 to 3. So, you can repair dragonscale armor less frequently (no chance for perm damage) and for lower relic cost. It's a win-win for dragonscale armor!

[totmacher]

actually, with dragon armor, yes, technically it's just much easier to let it go to 10% and then repair it... because you don't have to worry about permanent damage. lessening the cost of overhead to repair makes it easier. so yes with dragon armors there is a benefit to this whole system.

[MysticTheurge]

Given that Eladrin has strongly suggested he likes a system that ramps up item damage over multiple deaths, is that going to mitigate the disastrous new system for a lot of you nay-sayers?

If the first death between resting only does 2% item damage, and the second does 4% and so on up to the fifth death (and any subsequent deaths) doing 10%, how is that going to affect people's perception of the system.

[Ron]

Ironically if we look long term and not even Tekno can argue this, if we continue with xp debt, it will come to a point where the penalty per death will be such that everyone will freak out and we have the president for it already with the mod 3 fiasco. And Ron this where I think you will realize you are in th minority in liking a harsh penalty. When peole started complaining about the penalty as being way too harsh, David Ecklebarry echoed your sentiment saying "death should hurt", well the playerbase responded to t hat in force and it was changed shorty thereafter, with the Turbine team spending a lot of resources undoing Mr.Ecklebarry's work.

I think that's a different situation. The XP death penalty is already VERY harsh, as evidenced by the feedback the devs have gotten about it. Unless you're capped, in which case it is irrelevant, which I firmly believe is also not healthy for the game.

Then they took this harsh death penalty and blew it all out of proportion (in, what I honestly suspect was a desperate attempt to slow players down and make content last longer). Of course the player base rose up in anger. I was among them, as a matter of fact, hehe.

This death penalty proposal is meant to be less harsh to non-capped players than the current system, but harsher to players who are capped (because at present the capped players have no penalty, as any penalty at all will be harsher than what it is currently). Does the proposed system satisfy that goal? I think it does. But that's just me

[Eladrin]

Given that Eladrin has strongly suggested he likes a system that ramps up item damage over multiple deaths, is that going to mitigate the disastrous new system for a lot of you nay-sayers?

I'm currently also looking at a way of integrating item hardness into the formula.

+5 Adamantine armor should indeed be sturdy.