Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Dariun]

XP debt stopped being permanent when they allowed regen.

I see this all the time and it really bugs me, so I'll add another post to this thread:

If you die and then complete a quest, the XP debt has cost you permanent XP.

The only time XP regeneration does you any good at all is if you die and then log off without completing the quest. This encourages people to quit playing DDO. A game that includes a mechanic that encourages people to quit playing is a game trying to slit its own throat...

[MysticTheurge]

Not true, I've done the reaver raid before and even after finishing it, was still 60k in the hole.

And you still lost experience that you would've otherwise gotten. Let's say that the Reaver Raid gives 5,000 XP.

You have 100,000 XP towards your next level. You die a bunch and get 65,000 in XP debt. You finish the quest. You still have 100,000 XP towards your next level and 60,000 in debt. Even if you log out and all that debt goes away, you still only have 100,000 XP towards your next level.

Your friend who was also 100,000 XP towards his next level and went on the raid but didn't die at all ends the night with 105,000 XP towards the next level.

You permanently lost 5,000 XP that you would've otherwise had.

[ArkoHighStar]

Excellent example of how XP debt is harmful and a negative impact on lower levels.

Emphasized Eladrin thoughts;

"If you're looking for a hidden agenda, it's "Make DDO more palatable to new players, try to bring back those that left after ending a night at a lower XP total than they started at, and prevent people in the future from having similar experiences."

Death has a (monetary) cost when capped now, true, but essentially having no death penalty at cap really wasn't healthy for the game."

I think this has nothing to do with lower levels, Hendrik, it has everything to do with playstyle, and play frequency. Those like Dariun who play with a static group see xp debt as stunting their progress, and he sees himself slipping behind his firends due to a few more deaths. This is a totaly logical view and he is absolutely right in saying that xp debt is bad for him. But it has nothing to do with lower levels, as he will have th same complaints at lvl 12-13 as he does at lvl 9.
Those who liked xp debt tend to be those who play more and be part of guilds with a varied set of players they can play with. Call them hardcore or more active. I wouldn't call them any better at playing the game, they just play it a lot more. For them xp debt is an acceptable deterrent as it delays progress, but not enough for them to stop. All they have to do is play some more to make it up, which they would do anyway because they like playing a lot.

Ironically if we look long term and not even Tekno can argue this, if we continue with xp debt, it will come to a point where the penalty per death will be such that everyone will freak out and we have the president for it already with the mod 3 fiasco. And Ron this where I think you will realize you are in th minority in liking a harsh penalty. When peole started complaining about the penalty as being way too harsh, David Ecklebarry echoed your sentiment saying "death should hurt", well the playerbase responded to t hat in force and it was changed shorty thereafter, with the Turbine team spending a lot of resources undoing Mr.Ecklebarry's work.

If xp debt has to go sooner or later so be it, but the proposed solution is much more harsh and just shifts dissatisfaction from one part of the playerbase to another, which is no solution.

It is obvious that the breaking point for many is the item damage, as even among those who have been testing the debuffs are not all that bad. So Turbine scrap the item damage and leave the debuffs, it will make the game easier for nwere players as you intended and will not alienate your veteran players who have stuck with you through many changes.

[xman26]

Nope. Not when you log back in a huge chunk of it is gone.

Remember the huge outcry against offline regen? Maybe we should have gone that route instead and we might not be looking at another revisit to death....

But the XP hit was to much to take and had to have offline regen as well.

What once was a serious hit was lessened to the point where it was a slight annoyance at best. Became comfortable knowing that the punishment for death would go away and we didn't even have to play. This became unhealthy for the game as a whole for all players of all playstyles.

Now to heal the game, we are back to where we started at, again. Revisiting death. Maybe we can get it right this time and will not have to revisit this topic again late next year.

Be interesting to read that old death thread - bet there are a TON of similar posts.

Lets not let history repeat itself this time?

If there is game to come back to in a year. The way the devs keep going with this, the only ones playing it will be those who played WOW as this game is going more and more away from being DnD to being WOW. Last I looked, we are paying to play DDO not WOW.

[totmacher]

again, "permanently losing xp" is assuming you're not capped. you all arguing from a not capped perspective.

if you're capped, then you've lost and gained nothing.

but, items not being an easily replenishable resource like XP is, can be lost.

a +6 con ring cannot be gained consistently from grinding prison of the planes (like xp can). it can only be gained after 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, ?? runs of prison, a factor that scales based on luck, not skill, thus make it not as easily attainable as XP.

[xman26]

And you still lost experience that you would've otherwise gotten. Let's say that the Reaver Raid gives 5,000 XP.

You have 100,000 XP towards your next level. You die a bunch and get 65,000 in XP debt. You finish the quest. You still have 100,000 XP towards your next level and 60,000 in debt. Even if you log out and all that debt goes away, you still only have 100,000 XP towards your next level.

Your friend who was also 100,000 XP towards his next level and went on the raid but didn't die at all ends the night with 105,000 XP towards the next level.

You permanently lost 5,000 XP that you would've otherwise had.

Very true, but if they killed off the XP regen tool, then I'd be at 100k to nexxt lvl with a 60k hole to make up for first. Soemthing I see no problem with.

[Ciaran]

The XP loss punished marginal players. By "marginal" players I mean players who, for whatever reason, do not find getting XP to be "easy". They might be new, they might be inexperienced, they might like soloing, they might suck.

In my case, I've had problems with XP for a variety of reasons: (1) not enough time so I avoid long chain quests (STK, TR, Deleras, CO6, Threnal), (2) don't PUG often because I'm often not sure if I have 20 minutes to play or 3 hours to play, (3) like to explore and solo a lot of stuff, which is risky and leads to deaths, and (4) most serious questing done with a static group of 4 who avoid having pre-knowledge of the quests.

#3 and #4 lead to more deaths, and this is where XP debt hurts. My first and primary character is a rogue, so, over time he has died much more than the rest of the group (fighter and cleric have much better survivability, wizard is smarter with aggro and a better twitch player).

BTW, soloing explorer areas (Atraxia, Desert, GH) to make up for lost XP has turned out to be a great way to rack up additional XP debt for me.

This all sounds like it's a result of your particular situation and playstyle. Why would you expect an MMO to cater to a more single-player mentality and playstyle? The rules have to be broad enough to be meaningful across all levels.

First of all, while I commend people who like to solo, this game was never built with the intention of being overly friendly to solo playstyles. This game was built from the perspective of grouping together. If you are playing outside of the intended purpose of a game, you are going to find it's rules frustrating.

If you like to solo you are making the decision to put yourself at risk for death. In fact, it is very likely in many quests that you will die.

Really, most of your complaint stems from the way you are choosing to play a game, that is you are choosing to solo material that is intended for a group of 4 to 6, with the odds favoring a full group of 6. You are also choosing to do this with a class that is harder to achieve this with.

I'm curious why you think everybody else should be held accountable for your choice to play the game in a way it wasn't intended.

Every game has limits on what you can and cannot feasibly do. No game is so open ended as to accomodate every conceivable playstyle.

[MysticTheurge]

again, "permanently losing xp" is assuming you're not capped. you all arguing from a not capped perspective.

if you're capped, then you've lost and gained nothing.

Yes, which actually only compounds the problem, by creating a penalty which is unavoidably permanent up to a certain stage of the game and then totally irrelevant past that.

[xman26]

again, "permanently losing xp" is assuming you're not capped. you all arguing from a not capped perspective.

if you're capped, then you've lost and gained nothing.

but, items not being an easily replenishable resource like XP is, can be lost.

a +6 con ring cannot be gained consistently from grinding prison of the planes (like xp can). it can only be gained after 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, ?? runs of prison, a factor that scales based on luck, not skill, thus make it not as easily attainable as XP.

If they ditch the XP regen, this wouldnt be the case as I would have to wrok even harder to get where want to. I also shouldn't have to be forced to repeat quests upto 60 times to replace an item lost because of a dumb idea like this one they are proposing.

[totmacher]

Yes, which actually only compounds the problem, by creating a penalty which is unavoidably permanent up to a certain stage of the game and then totally irrelevant past that.

but also defeats your all encompassing statement of XP loss being permanent and items being temporary. items become permanent at cap, or rather, more permanent than something that doesn't matter anymore.

you can't have your argument go both ways at end game and mid game

[Dariun]

Why would you expect an MMO to cater to a more single-player mentality and playstyle?

Money, money, money, money, and money.

[Mercules]

If they ditch the XP regen, this wouldnt be the case as I would have to wrok even harder to get where want to. I also shouldn't have to be forced to repeat quests upto 60 times to replace an item lost because of a dumb idea like this one they are proposing.

You don't have to... Bind the item to you and it doesn't get permanent damage. Now you might have to farm for another copy of that item for another character(instead of just passing it on) you create, but that is a different argument.

[Laith]

but also defeats your all encompassing statement of XP loss being permanent and items being temporary. items become permanent at cap, or rather, more permanent than something that doesn't matter anymore.

you can't have your argument go both ways at end game and mid game

after becoming capped, i've changed items SEVERAL times. When caps raise or new mods come out, undoubtedly EVERYONE will go through a major item overhaul.

When the items change, i generally pass down the old ones to lesser toons or sell them.

With the new system, i either:
1) lose the old items because i bound them (assuming they'd be permanent)
or
2) risk losing the new items because i don't bind them.

items aren't permanent: even at cap. the death penalty remains standard regardless of cap/non-cap.

[MysticTheurge]

but also defeats your all encompassing statement of XP loss being permanent and items being temporary. items become permanent at cap, or rather, more permanent than something that doesn't matter anymore.

you can't have your argument go both ways at end game and mid game

Yes, this is an accurate assessment.

Item damage is more "permanent" than XP is at the cap and less "permanent" than XP before the cap.

[Ciaran]

Yes, which actually only compounds the problem, by creating a penalty which is unavoidably permanent up to a certain stage of the game and then totally irrelevant past that.

Just because you keep repeating that it's permanent and therefore undesirable, that doesn't make it so.

In reality this kind of thing really only applies to people such as Dariun who make the choice to either solo a game that is still trying to catch up by revamping existing content with a solo setting but still was never intended to be overly solo friendly or to only group with a static group. He also only has a certain amount of time he's willing or able to devote the game, and given that situation, of course he isn't going to progress in the same way as others.

Without any data to back it up, I'm willing to venture a guess from my experience at playing this game and say that most people prefer to group with others and play the game in the manner it seems to have been intended. If they had intended for solo play to be viable and a way for players of ALL skill level to play, they'd have included it on release.

[xman26]

You don't have to... Bind the item to you and it doesn't get permanent damage. Now you might have to farm for another copy of that item for another character(instead of just passing it on) you create, but that is a different argument.

And here in lays on of the games biggest issues. Either everyone has the same luck in getting items, or they should make a static items list for all chests as there are people playing this game that have not gotten a vorpal, disruptor, banisher or smiter as an end reward, wile others have already recieved up wards of 6 of just 1 of those i listed above. This is nuts aswell.

[Mercules]

And here in lays on of the games biggest issues. Either everyone has the same luck in getting items, or they should make a static items list for all chests as there are people playing this game that have not gotten a vorpal, disruptor, banisher or smiter as an end reward, wile others have already recieved up wards of 6 of just 1 of those i listed above. This is nuts aswell.

Everyone has the same CHANCE(luck) of getting the item. Some of those people who have more items have given themselves more chances at pulling the items by ransacking certain quests every week. I find this incredibly dull and refuse to do it so I have fewer "power 5" items.

[ccheath776]

Can you point me to something that spells out how losing -50, -150, -200, etc XP in quests that give 1.5k, 2k, 3k, and more has a significant impact on character progression? Also, if you're a new player your are going to die a lot...I dare say you're "supposed" to! We all went through that and guess what, we got better! We stopped dying as frequently as we did (off days/nights excluded). .

Because its all about time.
If I play for 4 hours I expect to get say 4k xp.
I shouldn't have the limitation that if I die once I lose 1k xp and that is permanently gone. I can't gain that 1000 xp back. IN other words my time is now lost. Its like someone paying you 10$ an hour for 3 hours but only paying two of those hours.
I dont know how anybody can say "Well you lose 3k xp but you gaine 10k xp so your still ahead..." Give me a break. So if I lose 2 cars but gain 3, thats ok when I could have had all 5 right? I lose 10 million dollars but gain 1 million when I could have had the whole 11 million, thats ok as well right? What kind of thinking is that?
Dont take my words harshly but honestly, does that kind of mentality make any sense to you?

YEAH your ahead but not as much as if you would have had with NO xp penalty. you complete a quest for 10k xp, no matter how many times you die you still get that 10k xp.

So what your down a couple thousand gold and some item damage. Big deal. Its not like earning it is not easy.
Id rather lose the gold and get item damage than have to go back in time and try to recover the xp debt. Its 1 step forward and 3 steps back.
Its like your in a 100 meter dash about to win and someone walks up and moves you back 50 meters.
Its like someone rolling a boulder up a hil and as you get to the top it tumbles down and you have to do it all over again.

You say the xp penalty was not harsh, I can make a thousand arguments as to how I think it was.
This mechanic once put in is in line with all of the DND rules. If I was DM and you got bludgeoned to death with an ogr club, I dont care what kind of armor you got, it took damage. You stand in the line of a dragons breath weapon, your stuff is going to be damaged.

I am a mentor I welcome new players all the time.
3 out of 4 people hated the xp penalty and said it would just take them too long to level with that mechanic and therefore did not purchase the full game. I know it sounds strange, dumb, or outlandish, but the xp penalty was putting a wedge in this game for new players. Without it, I think that wedge will be lifted and newer players will come now. Its the truth. The question is, is it already too late? Have we already lost too many potential customers because of the xp penalty? Whos to know.

My opinion after this mod Turbine will have to have a welcome back weekend. Get those players to return and see how the system is now with no xp penalty. I guarantee most will stay.

[Hendrik]

I think this has nothing to do with lower levels, Hendrik, it has everything to do with playstyle, and play frequency. Those like Dariun who play with a static group see xp debt as stunting their progress, and he sees himself slipping behind his firends due to a few more deaths. This is a totaly logical view and he is absolutely right in saying that xp debt is bad for him. But it has nothing to do with lower levels, as he will have th same complaints at lvl 12-13 as he does at lvl 9.
Those who liked xp debt tend to be those who play more and be part of guilds with a varied set of players they can play with. Call them hardcore or more active. I wouldn't call them any better at playing the game, they just play it a lot more. For them xp debt is an acceptable deterrent as it delays progress, but not enough for them to stop. All they have to do is play some more to make it up, which they would do anyway because they like playing a lot.

Ironically if we look long term and not even Tekno can argue this, if we continue with xp debt, it will come to a point where the penalty per death will be such that everyone will freak out and we have the president for it already with the mod 3 fiasco. And Ron this where I think you will realize you are in th minority in liking a harsh penalty. When peole started complaining about the penalty as being way too harsh, David Ecklebarry echoed your sentiment saying "death should hurt", well the playerbase responded to t hat in force and it was changed shorty thereafter, with the Turbine team spending a lot of resources undoing Mr.Ecklebarry's work.

If xp debt has to go sooner or later so be it, but the proposed solution is much more harsh and just shifts dissatisfaction from one part of the playerbase to another, which is no solution.

It is obvious that the breaking point for many is the item damage, as even among those who have been testing the debuffs are not all that bad. So Turbine scrap the item damage and leave the debuffs, it will make the game easier for nwere players as you intended and will not alienate your veteran players who have stuck with you through many changes.

Nice holding a conversation with ya Arko, opens my eyes to things I may not have seen. Thx bud!

I made a post recently about the XP back around M3. I was in favor of keeping the big hit and not allowing off line regen. I was afraid that the offline regen would dilute the DP. I still stand by my statements and not afraid to admit to what I was in favor of. I wonder if we would have gone with the hard XP hit and stuck with it, if we would be here discussing more changes to death. Little fearful, TBH Arko, if we don't bite the bullet we will be looking at another revisit to death in the near future.

Yes Arko, I think we need a harsh penalty. I do not want to divide players into hardcore, casual, uber, noobs as that will divide us as a community and ruin all hope of us leading this game into what it can become. There are thing I do and do not like about the new DP as proposed. But I do like what you and MT have put forth and find them to be a viable solution/middle ground to what the DEVs and what we want. I do not want a harsh Dp to cause pain, grief, unhappy players, or to see Tek leave. I want to see a harsher DP because I see us diggin ourselves in the proverbial hole. And as much as people are going to hate for me to say this; IMO, we are not using death, treating death, or whatever else dealing with death as the DEV's intended - to no fault of theirs or ours. Maybe we have become a little complacent and need to be shook up some?

As many know and many will be happy for me to finally admit, I have faith and trust in the DEV's here - but my reasons are my own. They do not put forth these idea's without careful and long consideration. I believe them, and have seen for myself, how the current DP is unhealthy in many aspects. I have faith that we can find some middle ground that will suit the DEVs purpose and not sting to much.

/respect

[Ciaran]

Money, money, money, money, and money.

Riiiight...so they should try to please every conceivable playstyle and individual situation so they can chase after every single dollar they think they can get? Tell me you aren't a CFO for a company...

So they should implement a death penalty that is much harsher than the existing one for people who CHOOSE to play the game as it is intended (by grouping and devoting more than 30 minutes to an hour to it) to benefit what I'm fairly comfortable in saying is a minority so they can bring in more money?

If you upset a larger percentage of people by trying to please a lower percentage of people, you stand to lose more revenue.

Sorry, but unless you can frame your argument in more than one word, it holds no water.