Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Dariun]

This system wil be a big hit with one segment of the population, and loathed by the other

I don't think the new system will be a big hit with any large segment of the game population.

Yes, eliminating the XP debt will make some people happier (myself included), but the item damage will be considered a negative by the vast majority of the population ranging from "it doesn't really matter, but it is a nuisance to repair stuff all the time" (me) to "I hate this, I quit".

Some people on the forum are "defending" it, but I don't think anyone is honestly excited about this change (or, if they are, I suspect they've just gotten worked up defending it to the point where they can't help but like it...).

[ArkoHighStar]

Yep, I agree 100%. These are the big questions. Only time will tell, I suppose, heh.

Although just to clarify. I don't think people left *because* of the xp debt. They left because xp debt is meaningless at the cap, and therefore death is meaningless, which results in boredom, which THEN results in them leaving the game.

no running the same quest over and over again, when you already have all the loot you need because you already ran it into the ground during 2 +1 weekends, is why people left. Death being meaningless has very little to do with it, as xp debt to those players was not the obstacle when they were leveling. Their only options to keep things fresh are to try things in new ways and the death penalty as it stands encourages people to do that. The other option is to start a new character. Many players went from 1 or capped chracters to 5-6 during the last nine months, because we were waiting for the new content

[totmacher]

Yes, casual players will be hurt most by this, the perception of nerfing for game balance's sake is a common topic in MMOs.

You really have to sell this to the community before you implement, otherwise many will construe it as taking away the rights and privileges they enjoyed before arbitrarily. This is seen as cruel and imposed... the same things you hated about those jerk GMs you used to play with.

That's why a vote would be the best way to get public perception on this and a need for re-balancing it.

[ArkoHighStar]

I don't think the new system will be a big hit with any large segment of the game population.

Yes, eliminating the XP debt will make some people happier (myself included), but the item damage will be considered a negative by the vast majority of the population ranging from "it doesn't really matter, but it is a nuisance to repair stuff all the time" (me) to "I hate this, I quit".

Some people on the forum are "defending" it, but I don't think anyone is honestly excited about this change (or, if they are, I suspect they've just gotten worked up defending it to the point where they can't help but like it...).

I truly believe that if item damage makes it to production, it will be universally loathed, even by those who think it is a good idea now.

[Justicesar]

Item damage is garbage. Try this on one server with the option of leaving and see how many flee like rats from a sinking ship.

[Ron]

Some people on the forum are "defending" it, but I don't think anyone is honestly excited about this change (or, if they are, I suspect they've just gotten worked up defending it to the point where they can't help but like it...).

To quote one of the devs somewhere, "You're not supposed to like it". It's a penalty. You died. It's supposed to hurt. This is what keeps you from using death as a tactic, or a transport system, or being just plain lazy about it ("Ah, it's been seven deaths against the big bad foozle, but we've taken him down to 15% HP, we should be able to kill him in only three or four more deaths, let's go!").

The penalty we have now (xp debt) is horrendously broken. This is the best alternative I've seen. It hits players where they will fee it the most, in their equipment. The rest of it (the debuff part) is, in my opinion, meaningless. It won't prevent casuality toward death, because you can just wait it out.

As a side effect, the item damage/binding thing may even help a bit to fix our (also horrendously broken) game economy. It also may not, it's hard to say, but at least it can't make it any worse (if it COULD be any worse, which is sincerely doubt).

And that, in a nutshell, is why I like it.

[KoboldKiller]

My question is, has this been implimented on Risia yet and if so can someone who has experienced this new change give your opinion of it? I would read through the other posts but this thing is on fire right now and leaves too much to read.

[xman26]

Very true Tek.

But so far only a few people seem to have interest to take the new system that IS comming and work with it and the community to make it into something that is better.

But who will the DEV's listen to? Those that take an idea and try to make it better and debate the pros and cons or those that yell, kick, and scream "I hate it and you too DEVs", "If you do this I quit and make sure I make such a stink about it".

I still give props to just about everyone in this thread that contributed. It was those people that contributed that allowed for a few members to take that input and modify the DP to be something a little better. And even a DEV took notice. Sounds like this discussion was productive and will show results - based on the feedback from those that are interested enough in DDO to care.

If Turbine really wanted to improve things, they would work on new content and fixing bugs instead of coming up with dumb ideas like this one.

[moorewr]

My question is, has this been implimented on Risia yet and if so can someone who has experienced this new change give your opinion of it? I would read through the other posts but this thing is on fire right now and leaves too much to read.

Yes. It appears to have some serious bugs, but you can test it out. The Twelve, new village and explorer area are online too.

[Hendrik]

My question is, has this been implimented on Risia yet and if so can someone who has experienced this new change give your opinion of it? I would read through the other posts but this thing is on fire right now and leaves too much to read.

It's not as bad as the D&G make it out to be.

On average, 1-2 pts of perm damage out of 14 items.

Can mitigate that damage by;

Binding
Expert Repairs

And perm dam repair in the future.

10% damage on death to all gear is a bit high for one death. MT's suggestion of progression based on deaths is a great solution IMO.


Turbine can still achieve what they desire and we will have less damage to gear on death.

[MysticTheurge]

My question is, has this been implimented on Risia yet and if so can someone who has experienced this new change give your opinion of it? I would read through the other posts but this thing is on fire right now and leaves too much to read.

There's a thread in the Risia Test Server Discussion folder (under Server Folders) that has some hands-on feedback.

[Hendrik]

If Turbine really wanted to improve things, they would work on new content and fixing bugs instead of coming up with dumb ideas like this one.

Any idea's you care to add or just want to post more trash?

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I would argue (once again) that part of what makes a game fun is the risk involved. Yeah, it's gonna hurt to die, nobody likes to be killed and take the consequences of the risk. But that's what makes the rewards all the sweeter.)

I want a death penalty, but one that gives a temporary sting. XP worked for that, as does the debuff. If there were no permanent damage in the game, so would the equipment damage. But damaging my equipment knowing that some of it will be permanently damaged and that eventually it will become unusable...that takes the penalty to the point where the game is no longer fun.

To quote one of the devs somewhere, "You're not supposed to like it".

Interesting choice of quotes Ron... That was Q and it was part of a joke.

[xman26]

To quote one of the devs somewhere, "You're not supposed to like it". It's a penalty. You died. It's supposed to hurt. This is what keeps you from using death as a tactic, or a transport system, or being just plain lazy about it ("Ah, it's been seven deaths against the big bad foozle, but we've taken him down to 15% HP, we should be able to kill him in only three or four more deaths, let's go!").

The penalty we have now (xp debt) is horrendously broken. This is the best alternative I've seen. It hits players where they will fee it the most, in their equipment. The rest of it (the debuff part) is, in my opinion, meaningless. It won't prevent casuality toward death, because you can just wait it out.

As a side effect, the item damage/binding thing may even help a bit to fix our (also horrendously broken) game economy. It also may not, it's hard to say, but at least it can't make it any worse (if it COULD be any worse, which is sincerely doubt).

And that, in a nutshell, is why I like it.

The XP debt system works fine and IS NOT broken as you put it. This change will break the game, people will leave which is what Turbine prpably wants anyways as they drag their feet fixing bugs and making new content not to mention not raising the lvl cap. This change is going to hurt more that it benifits them. I know of 50 people, not toons, people, who will leave, IE quit/cancel accounts on the Thel server alone and none post here. Subscription levels have already fallen, why else did they merge servers and are now offering 30 days paid account time for referred new players. They are forcing people away from the game by continuely nerfing it this way.

[Ron]

The XP debt system works fine and IS NOT broken as you put it.

If you don't see how broken the xp debt system is, then you are just refusing to look, and I can't help you.

[MysticTheurge]

I want a death penalty, but one that gives a temporary sting. XP worked for that, as does the debuff.

It's interesting to see people's take on what's permanent and what's temporary. To me, XP was always permanent. You lost XP forever. You could earn other, new XP, but it's always XP you would've gotten otherwise anyway. The XP death penalty was absolutely permanent because you were always behind where you would've been if you hadn't died.

Item damage, for me, is much less permanent. Even if I get permanent damage, they're already putting in ways to deal with or avoid that (binding items). And honestly, even if I don't bind my items, chances are I'm going to find another item that's equally nice, if not better, by the time death destroys any of my equipment for good.

But perhaps most importantly here, the new binding system allows you to create a scenario where Death has absolutely no permanent effects what-so-ever. You guys just don't want to accept that because you want to have your cake and eat it too.

[Dariun]

To quote one of the devs somewhere, "You're not supposed to like it".
...
And that, in a nutshell, is why I like it.

I understand what you are saying. And I agree death should have a real penalty that affects all players.

I think the debuff is great. I was in favor of a temporary debuff as the death penalty, and aside from the fact that it is currently not working correctly (I had -120 hit points or something like that on Risia), I think it will be a good addition.

But there is a difference between making death "something to be avoided" and making it "something that makes the game less fun".

It's not fun if you are doing Cult of the Six on Elite and between every mission you have to wait for someone to run back to the boat and repair. And it's even less fun if a few party members have to go back with them to make sure they can get through the encounter area successfully.

And if you've played in enough PUGs, you *know* that one person going to repair leads to everyone else doing something (repairing, checking auctions, going to the kitchen, checking in with their guild and dropping group). This will not be a good thing at all.

I don't accept "people shouldn't die" as a legitimate argument because DDO has too many "save or die" situations and because, from a role player's perspective, sometimes you have to be willing to sacrifice yourself for the good of the party. I can't tell you how many times my rogue got killed defending our cleric (or, at least, that was my story when I got asked "how did you get killed this time?" ).

[Mad_Bombardier]

The XP debt system works fine and IS NOT broken as you put it.

Any death penalty system that does not apply to a significant portion of the questing public (capped characters) IS broken. The new death penalty applies to all characters.

[mgoldb2]

The XP debt system works fine and IS NOT broken as you put it. This change will break the game, people will leave which is what Turbine prpably wants anyways as they drag their feet fixing bugs and making new content not to mention not raising the lvl cap. This change is going to hurt more that it benifits them. I know of 50 people, not toons, people, who will leave, IE quit/cancel accounts on the Thel server alone and none post here. Subscription levels have already fallen, why else did they merge servers and are now offering 30 days paid account time for referred new players. They are forcing people away from the game by continuely nerfing it this way.

I actually agree with you that this change going to be bad for the game but don’t you see a slight contradiction in your statement.

[Hendrik]

The XP debt system works fine and IS NOT broken as you put it. This change will break the game, people will leave which is what Turbine prpably wants anyways as they drag their feet fixing bugs and making new content not to mention not raising the lvl cap. This change is going to hurt more that it benifits them. I know of 50 people, not toons, people, who will leave, IE quit/cancel accounts on the Thel server alone and none post here. Subscription levels have already fallen, why else did they merge servers and are now offering 30 days paid account time for referred new players. They are forcing people away from the game by continuely nerfing it this way.

With all due respect, may want to loosen the tinfoil hat.