Permanent Item Damage and Death Penalty changes

[Gengulphus]

Between Arko and MT, looks like this is something to seriously bring to Eladrin's attention.

Good things do come from debate.

Here, here!! I second this!

Arko's solution mentioned above is really brilliant.

[ArkoHighStar]

Here, here!! I second this!

Arko's solution mentioned above is really brilliant.

I wouild say its half mine, half mystics. I won't take full credit for it. It does not address however the end boss style raids without a shrine 100% yet. It does make learning a new raid like the reaver or the abbott certainly more palatable than the proposed system. On normal 10 deaths mean 54% damage, and someone correct me if I am wrong if you have died 10 times most likely you have wiped and must start again At least that has been my experience. The reaver is the one exception with that pesky lever. I think a rez button would not work as those who just wish to sit out the rest of the raid can simply reject it and wait till its over and get an automatic raise.

[BuzzSaw]

Someone's gonna have to help me out here because I must be missing something

1) I absolutely DESPISE the XP penalty on death, It's extremely hard to gain XP in the Necropolis because of it, If you are doing Ghosts, you can expect to die at least once, and there are no surprises if you die more then that. It IS a nice surprise if you don't die at all. So you get all that debt in very difficult quests trying to cap. You can't avoid it, the punitive nature of XP debt on death is most harsh against those not capped, and insignificant on those who are capped.

2) All my fighters have at least 1 level of item defense, and one of my fighters has three full levels of it, I tell you it makes a HUGE difference. Yea, all of them get stuff damaged, but it's not the end of the world... to date, And I have PLAYED ALOT, I have lost 1 item to permanent damage 1 pair of trapblast goggles. And yes, my barbarian must make the kobold smith in House D shake with rage after he comes back after a quest with a good majority of his stuff damaged to at least 25% levels.

So what is the real issue here ? In order to make death count, you've now put a penalty in place that is pretty fair to those leveling but most punitive to those capped with all the UBER UBER gear ? I don't understand it. If it bothers you SO much, then you can get 400 free agent favor and only repair in the Desert, there you go...no permanent damage, and bound items are immune anyways. SO I really don't see what all the "I'm gonna leave" and "You will kill the game" posts are about. Hell, if that super sword is so awesome then bind it, but personally, I will never use the bind stone, too much chance of someone else in my stable or guild needing it down the road. So I have a choice, and I choose not to bind. And in doing so I fully accept that my precious foozle might get damaged. Cry me a river...

So, I like the changes! I think they are a fresh approach to death that equally stings all the levels rather then the level 11-13's the most. Maybe now, the sacrificial lamb tactics will change in the game. And as for the earlier post that stated that "oops I've got damage this isn't worth it and so the player drops" are you telling me that you've NEVER had a quest where someone got upset over the XP debt they received and then dropped ? I don't believe it happened when you were 14, but I bet it happened quite a few times before you capped. There is no LOWER feeling in this game then to be 2000 XP from level and then taking it in the head a few times and come out of the quest 3000 or even 4000 from level. It's a horrible horrible sinking feeling when that happens.

I think the game will be stronger for these changes. I like them, I like them alot.
Buzz

[Eladrin]

There have been quite a few excellent ideas in this thread (and the Risia one) that I'll be discussing with Codog on Monday.

[MysticTheurge]

Repairing inside the quest should also occur and be like the cleric heal skill effect on healing more at a shrine. A zero repair will not repair any damage, a maxxed out repair should take the weapon to 3% of max durability, but never all way( it should still cost you something, and run the risk of perm damage)

I think it could get tricky if Repair costs something and has risk of permanent damage.

Because at that point, you basically need to give everyone a confirmation box as to whether they want to let their items be repaired. Some people might not want to give up the money or risk the damage.

I see the problem with not charging/risking, because then people wouldn't even use repairers any more, they'd just go into quests and hit the shrines for free, risk-free repairs.

What if it worked like this:

Rather than being automatic at the shrine, the repair skill grants you a certain number of "repairs" per rest (maybe modifier/10?). You can, at any time, target yourself or an ally and activate this ability to bring up a window to repair as normal. Once you select the items to repair, those items are repaired, but by a certain percentage of their max durability (equal to your modifier?) and maybe only up to a certain percentage of max durability (50 + your modifier?). The owner of the items is charged an amount of gold based on the amount of damage repaired as normal and has the same standard chance of taking permanent damage to his non-bound items. I'd think it should be easy to give this a fairly long "timer" so that it would be interrupt-able if you tried to do it in combat.

Maybe you even grant a version of "Expert Repair" to people who reach a certain Repair Modifier, so that they can choose which of the two they want to use (though it should probably draw from the same pool of uses).

A Mending spell would work like basic repair and works as though the caster had a number of ranks of repair equal to their casting stat. A Make Whole spell would work like expert repair and fully repair items regardless of their current state. Both spell should have relatively long cooldowns (but not share a cooldown).

[moorewr]

There have been quite a few excellent ideas in this thread (and the Risia one) that I'll be discussing with Codog on Monday.

Raar!

[honkuimushi]

Incorrect.

The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.


"Vastly Increased" = -50%??

The problem with that is it assumes that you never die. One death at level 14 means that I take as much damage to my items as I do in a week right now. Running high level quests with beholders, mindflayers and other monsters with save or lose or save or die abilities means that dying in a quest isn't that rare. Dying twice isn't that common, but it happens. Once we start running Mod 6 content, I expect that to increase. So one quest in the new system could easily mean I have with 1 death for 4x the damage I take now. With the decrease in the permadamage rates that means I'm taking permadamage at twice the rate I do now. With 2 deaths it increases to 4x. Now think about trying the Abbot or new content with this system. Some people will die 3, 4 or 5 times on a challenging quest. That would be an increase of 6, 8 or 10x for me.

This isn't evenly distributed either. Most of my damage now is to my weapons and armor. They have the most durability and usually the best hardness. But the new system damages everything equally. My accesories are going to take a real beating. It just so happens, that those are the things most easily outgrown and I would be most reluctant to bind.

Now how much damage you take in the new system compared to now will depend on the gear you have, the enhancements you take, how much you play, who you play with and how often you die. But I think most people will gain permadamage 2-4x as fast as currently. Accessories could easily be over 100x faster. Those rates are "vastly increased" to my way of thinking. Yes, the repair rates have been lowered, but we'll be repairing a lot more damage. You have to consider both aspects.

[HumanRogue]

Incorrect.

The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.


"Vastly Increased" = -50%??

Well you are correct, the chance to take perm damage has been halved. The problem in that the chance for an item to take damage has been increased from a small chance to 100% each time you die. This being said you are now going to have to repair a whole lot more because you are now taking a whole lot more damage to your equipment if you are dying. The 50% reduction in permanent damage will not and does not (trust me I have been playing on Risia) reduce the amount of damage on the item because you have increased the amount of damage an item accumulates well over 50%.

As someone mentioned before going through against the dragons and dying lots. Well now if you have your max level items equiped that you can exuip (lets say dragon armor for a lvl 14 char) then when you die fighting the dragon guess what, now instead of having a fighting chance when the cleric reses your char you now will be standing there in your underwear cause you are now lvl 13 and your dragon armor cant be used for a min, or two, or three exc. I wouldnt mind the death penelty as much if I didnt lose my ability in the big fights to use my stuff. People mention going slow and taking more time in the quests. I am not sure how to take it slower when you are in a big fight against that white dragon (um, excuse me mr dragon while I find a level 12 armor here in my inventory and equip it so that I stand a chance. Now where did that lvl 12 required sword and shield go to?)

It will all in all make it much harder to let your guy die more than a couple times in a dungeon without recalling to repair. It will aslo make the big fights that really count become a lot harder when you are standing in your underwear punching the dragon with your fists. In order to carry enough equipment to cover negative levels during the big fights we are going to have to have more inventory room and some more quick bars so we arnt just standing there trying to find where that lvl 10 (died 3 times) armor went to.

They mentioned initially that this was to improve player experience. Im sorry but I don't see any way in which this improved my experience. Its true that most games out there have something you have to do to get over death. I have played alot of internet games. The big difference is D&D online isnt those other games. So in Everquest you have to go retrieve your body, Once you clicked on it all your items was equiped and you was ready to "camp" the spawn again. In those games you generally didnt have a storyline like D&D and so there wasnt generally "Big end fights". The difference in not "camping" a critter to get up your level was one main thing that attracted me to start another MMO. In our case death can not be handled in a similar maner though as another MMO due to the big fights (They just cant be done in your underwear!).

[MysticTheurge]

Hey. Does anyone remember the math for Repairing and Permanent Damage?

I'm curious to see how often you need to die before you surpass the chance for permanent damage under the old system.

[binnsr]

Hey. Does anyone remember the math for Repairing and Permanent Damage?

I'm curious to see how often you need to die before you surpass the chance for permanent damage under the old system.

http://ddo.enterwiki.net/page/Repair_%28equipment%29

[Theboz]

the more I read about this new system, the more likely im not going to play, risking perminate damage to my gear. Im also not in favor of a binding system either, Because I like to experiment with different equipment on different toons I have, always trying out different things, fine tuning then. If I have to bind something to keep it from getting perminate damage., then I can no longer do something I have fun trying different things on my toons.


For the people who only have one or two high level toons then this binding of equipment is not that bad of idea. But, for the people who have multiple accounts and multiple capped toons, this new system will be a very bad idea.

[Theboz]

removed because of a double post

[ArkoHighStar]

I think it could get tricky if Repair costs something and has risk of permanent damage.

Because at that point, you basically need to give everyone a confirmation box as to whether they want to let their items be repaired. Some people might not want to give up the money or risk the damage.

I see the problem with not charging/risking, because then people wouldn't even use repairers any more, they'd just go into quests and hit the shrines for free, risk-free repairs.

What if it worked like this:

Rather than being automatic at the shrine, the repair skill grants you a certain number of "repairs" per rest (maybe modifier/10?). You can, at any time, target yourself or an ally and activate this ability to bring up a window to repair as normal. Once you select the items to repair, those items are repaired, but by a certain percentage of their max durability (equal to your modifier?) and maybe only up to a certain percentage of max durability (50 + your modifier?). The owner of the items is charged an amount of gold based on the amount of damage repaired as normal and has the same standard chance of taking permanent damage to his non-bound items. I'd think it should be easy to give this a fairly long "timer" so that it would be interrupt-able if you tried to do it in combat.

Maybe you even grant a version of "Expert Repair" to people who reach a certain Repair Modifier, so that they can choose which of the two they want to use (though it should probably draw from the same pool of uses).

A Mending spell would work like basic repair and works as though the caster had a number of ranks of repair equal to their casting stat. A Make Whole spell would work like expert repair and fully repair items regardless of their current state. Both spell should have relatively long cooldowns (but not share a cooldown).

I think you misunderstood what I meant by permanent damage, and looking at it it is easy to see I wasn't clear enough. I would never have permanent damage occur in the quest. But I would n ever allow the repair skill to reapir all damage, so even a maxxed repair skill will still leave a little bit of damage that must be repaired at a vendor This would mimic the fact that it is a field repair and you lack the ability to return the weapon to its pristine condition. Thus you still have the oppurtunity for perm damage in any case. Your idea works as well and either would be ok. I think however the mend spell should have a chance at perm damage just like repairing at a vendor if it is allowed to bring the weapon up to 100%

[Hendrik]

I wouild say its half mine, half mystics. I won't take full credit for it. It does not address however the end boss style raids without a shrine 100% yet. It does make learning a new raid like the reaver or the abbott certainly more palatable than the proposed system. On normal 10 deaths mean 54% damage, and someone correct me if I am wrong if you have died 10 times most likely you have wiped and must start again At least that has been my experience. The reaver is the one exception with that pesky lever. I think a rez button would not work as those who just wish to sit out the rest of the raid can simply reject it and wait till its over and get an automatic raise.

And with reading input from the rest of the community, you both found something that looks to be a very good solution.

Great work here everyone.

I look forward to Eladrin's thoughts on it.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Incorrect.

The chance for permanent damage to be inflicted on unbound items when repaired has been halved.
"Vastly Increased" = -50%??

Experience on Risia shows that this doesn't seem to be working as advertised. Perm damage is happening to at least one item after 1 death. That's statistically about double the rate of damage you would expect based on the wiki forumula that devs have in the past said was correct and thus four times what the new rate is supposed to be. It's either broken, I had 50 bad set of rolls in a row, or they did the opposite of what they claimed.

Edit: oh, and BTW, I've seen a few ppl in this and other thread on the subject talk about "the rats" running in fear and threatenning to quit for every change. Check my record, I'm one of the one usually called "fanboi". I've expressed concern and made suggestions about a few changes. Change is always scarey. I have never before however cried doom. I'm not even really doing that here since the MMO crowd seems used (and even likes?) being punished (masochist anyone?) but this may well be the thing that takes me out of the game. I just don't farm for loot and that means I don't have a vorpal on every char. When I get a new one it really matters to me. And being able to move it around so that the best vorpal is on each char is kinda fun because two chars can win with one big find. I don't want all my stuff bound. I don't want to see my stuff fade away. The old perm damage never amounted to enough that it bothered me. I never lost anything but small trivial items to perm damage. But this system is creating more perm damage and its going to make me depressed to see "item permanently damage" aften any time I die.

[Hendrik]

There have been quite a few excellent ideas in this thread (and the Risia one) that I'll be discussing with Codog on Monday.

Thank you Eladrin!

Not only for the impressive communication with you about this all but for taking our feedback and running with it!

I really look forward to hear what comes of your meeting with Codog!

Thx again!

/respect

[Hendrik]

The problem with that is it assumes that you never die. One death at level 14 means that I take as much damage to my items as I do in a week right now. Running high level quests with beholders, mindflayers and other monsters with save or lose or save or die abilities means that dying in a quest isn't that rare. Dying twice isn't that common, but it happens. Once we start running Mod 6 content, I expect that to increase. So one quest in the new system could easily mean I have with 1 death for 4x the damage I take now. With the decrease in the permadamage rates that means I'm taking permadamage at twice the rate I do now. With 2 deaths it increases to 4x. Now think about trying the Abbot or new content with this system. Some people will die 3, 4 or 5 times on a challenging quest. That would be an increase of 6, 8 or 10x for me.

This isn't evenly distributed either. Most of my damage now is to my weapons and armor. They have the most durability and usually the best hardness. But the new system damages everything equally. My accesories are going to take a real beating. It just so happens, that those are the things most easily outgrown and I would be most reluctant to bind.

Now how much damage you take in the new system compared to now will depend on the gear you have, the enhancements you take, how much you play, who you play with and how often you die. But I think most people will gain permadamage 2-4x as fast as currently. Accessories could easily be over 100x faster. Those rates are "vastly increased" to my way of thinking. Yes, the repair rates have been lowered, but we'll be repairing a lot more damage. You have to consider both aspects.

Thank you for the added information.


I see it evening out as we learn the Quests. Nothing we can do about the inevitability of dying in experiencing new content or a quest going bad- just prepare and hope the dice are with us. Lessening the DP for hitting something new would mean we would have to raise it for what we have already done - balance and all that.

Right now, I think MT/Arko's solution is by far the best and would help everyone accept the new DP a little better.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

I see Tekno has picked up my mantle while I slept through this cold

I have realized they will not keep xp debt, so lets try and make this system less punitive for all players, looking at my original idea and Mystic's take on take on my argument that while the debuff scales at all levels the item damage does not

Lvl 1-2 no penalty, new players will enjoy this, and older players spend about an hour at these levels anyway so they will never notice.
lvl 3-up
Normal
First death between shrines: 2%
Second death between shrines: 4%
Third death between shrines: 6%
Hard
First death between shrines: 2%
Second death between shrines: 4%
Third death between shrines: 6%
Fourth death between shrines: 8%
Elite
First death between shrines: 2%
Second death between shrines: 4%
Third death between shrines: 6%
Fourth death between shrines: 8%
Fifth or more death between shrines: 10%

I think we need to stop trying to add increasing difficulty by level, we already have a mechanism for that called quest difficulty. In my opinion a lvl 14 quest on normal should be of similiar difficulty to a lvl 2 quest being done by a group of lvl 2's. In other words as the quests get harder by level, we get more powerful to compensate. If you want it to be harder try hard and elite. This system protects casual players to an extent as they can do a quest on normal and not feel like they have to be going slow, but can do so if they choose. on elite you take a bit more damage but it drops from 50% to 20% after 5 deaths meaning you have a little more room to decide whether you need to get out or not, 10 deaths is around 60% damage, This will still encourage binding for those items that are important to you as even 2% damage can cause perm damage. the damage resets just like te debuff, so this will encourage fighters and rogues to use the shrines, that today they can pretty much ignore.

Repairing inside the quest should also occur and be like the cleric heal skill effect on healing more at a shrine. A zero repair will not repair any damage, a maxxed out repair should take the weapon to 3% of max durability, but never all way( it should still cost you something, and run the risk of perm damage)

Like you I still don't like the damage on death idea, but your level of damage is at least a decent compromise and the in quest repair is also a huge plus. I like the idea that the repair skill should automatically work at shrine to repair some, but not all damage and have no chance of perm repair. I would add to your idea that we should continue to look at other ways to further mitigate damage that have already been acknowleged as worth considering including:

• Adjusting damage based on hardness
• Allowing Item Defense to be applied to prevent damage
• Providing the first level of Item Defense as an enhancment option for all classes

[GeneralDiomedes]

For the amount of times people typically die, 2% is absolutely nothing .. might as well not even have it.

An alternative would be that still actually contributes to the implied goal:

- 1 of your equipped items experiences massive wear (75%) every time you die (you fell on it, I dunno .. make something up)
- All end rewards and named items from chests are bound

I mean a 2% damage rate? C'mon. I get more damage being hit by an ooze. We might as well go back to massive XP debt and crank up normal equipment wear.

The biggest problem here is they are _trying_ to give people permanent damage, and people, understandably, _hate_ the thought of permanent damage (something to do with living in a material culture I guess). Any solution that goes down that path and bows to player feedback will be watered down to the point of ineffectiveness. And yes, almost all of the solutions presented here are basically to make it so permanent damage is off people's 'worry radar'.

I guess they really thought binding would have seen more uptake.

[Hendrik]

Experience on Risia shows that this doesn't seem to be working as advertised. Perm damage is happening to at least one item after 1 death. That's statistically about double the rate of damage you would expect based on the wiki forumula that devs have in the past said was correct and thus four times what the new rate is supposed to be. It's either broken, I had 50 bad set of rolls in a row, or they did the opposite of what they claimed.

Edit: oh, and BTW, I've seen a few ppl in this and other thread on the subject talk about "the rats" running in fear and threatenning to quit for every change. Check my record, I'm one of the one usually called "fanboi". I've expressed concern and made suggestions about a few changes. Change is always scarey. I have never before however cried doom. I'm not even really doing that here since the MMO crowd seems used (and even likes?) being punished (masochist anyone?) but this may well be the thing that takes me out of the game. I just don't farm for loot and that means I don't have a vorpal on every char. When I get a new one it really matters to me. And being able to move it around so that the best vorpal is on each char is kinda fun because two chars can win with one big find. I don't want all my stuff bound. I don't want to see my stuff fade away. The old perm damage never amounted to enough that it bothered me. I never lost anything but small trivial items to perm damage. But this system is creating more perm damage and its going to make me depressed to see "item permanently damage" aften any time I die.

With almost a dozen deaths so far I have a total of 8 perm damage done to various gear. Couple with no damage at all, some with a few points spread about.

Why we have to get on Risia and do some crazy testing to see IF the new DP math is off.

With also Expert Repairs as an option, we have even a lesser chance for perm damage.